End of The GS in the UK

[dutchie01]

Adam, please watch the link below it is a real world review from Motomantv how is the car as daily driver.

outcome is that he prefers the hybrid to the 6 cylinder so it does not seem to be that bad after all....

the 0-60 figs just like the topspeed are just irrelevant to me. it is about how the car feels, drives, behaves in traffic. I have not driven one yet so cannot give a balanced view so until that moment...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3_xl81zMCMY

[st4]

Adam, please watch the link below it is a real world review from Motomantv how is the car as daily driver.
outcome is that he prefers the hybrid to the 6 cylinder so it does not seem to be that bad after all....
the 0-60 figs just like the topspeed are just irrelevant to me. it is about how the car feels, drives, behaves in traffic. I have not driven one yet so cannot give a balanced view so until that moment...

But he does say for driving pleasure the v6 betters the hybrid but conceded the hybrids perfect for the majority of people the majority of the time.

I’d sooner have the 3.5 than the hybrid but wouldn’t not buy the ES because I can’t get the v6. In many ways it seems the spiritual successor to my long gone Volvo S80 - a car I liked very much indeed


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[Linas.P]

13 hours ago, superatticman said:

8.1 seconds to 60 was seen as pretty brisk around 20 years ago. Has our expectations over 20 years really increased that much??

wow... you blew me away here - almost felt out of my chair. Yes - I expect a lot more after 20 years... Crowded roads and all other stuff - we need to take it to the streets burn politicians and get the democracy back. All the rules are undemocratic and outright imposed upon motorists, with pretty much single justifications - make more money.

I am not saying you are wrong, road indeed are more crowded, indeed a lot of "dumb" and outright illegal calming features and cameras on every corner, BUT - if you giving up the driving joy altogether, what is the point to have luxury car anyway. Any 1.1l trash can would do just to get from a to b... Luxury car never meant to be very sensible and the speed or acceleration is there just as a status or sort of psychological factor of knowing it is there if you need it. Except of Germany, no country in the world allows 155MPH on any road - still all luxury cars car capable of doing it... just because.. If luxury car doesn't do it - then it is not luxury car, then it is more comparable with ordinary cars for half a price.

[Dippo]

44 minutes ago, Linas.P said:

Except of Germany, no country in the world allows 155MPH on any road - still all luxury cars car capable of doing it... just because.. If luxury car doesn't do it - then it is not luxury car, then it is more comparable with ordinary cars for half a price.

Top speed of the current BMW 520d (best selling model?) is 146 mph.

[Linas.P]

2 minutes ago, Dippo said:

Top speed of the current BMW 520d (best selling model?) is 146 mph.

Yes, but BMW 520d is not the ONLY CHOICE!

IS250 max speed is ~137-141MPH... not sure I have ever reached it, but I do set the cruise at 120MPH in Germany quite often. 300h top speed is ~104-111MPH depending on the model and that would create issues for me. I think top speed is probably even less relevant then 0-60, but again that is not the point. It is a matter of having it, because otherwise one would happily just have car only capable of 70MPH and 20s 0-60... you could still get from A to B, why have more expensive luxury car then if one don't care. Here I am all for it - some people don't need any of that and I appreciate it, but they don't buy luxury cars either then.

[st4]

Top speed of the current BMW 520d (best selling model?) is 146 mph.

Which is a lot more than the ES300h. Still it’ll be a ton more refined. A 520d is terrible coarse - it’s efficient but ghastly

That does matter if you live/travel there.

146mph isn’t that fast. A 3.5 ES with 300bhp could probably break 160mph.


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[Dapprman]

15 hours ago, superatticman said:

 Does a large comfy car really need to hit 60 in 6 seconds flat and be able to top 150mph? Of course if you want some Autobahn storming then there maybe becomes some just

Got to support this.  Before my GS I had a Citroen C6 and that hit the mark perfectly for this type of car.  Yes in theory that was capable of 0-60 in 8.6 seconds and topping out at 138 mph, but that was not the point.  A big comfortable waft mobile is all about getting there in perfect comfort and without a care in the world.

Too much acceleration requires overly stiff suspension, which leads to poor ride and a lack of comfort.

[Linas.P]

1 minute ago, Dapprman said:

Too much acceleration requires overly stiff suspension, which leads to poor ride and a lack of comfort.

Long time not the case.... as proven by your own GS450h - it is called adaptable suspension, where stiffness can be adjusted to the driving condition. Just another excuse for Lexus not to bother - people don't even know what they have in their own car.

Just to remind - I don not have an issue with GS, ES or any other 300h as long as money is not an object and there is other choice. The time I started having issues is when 300h became the only option and secondly, fore the price it simply needs to do better.... or should be much much cheaper.

[dutchie01]

I think torque is much more important. Seems the hybrid has more torque at low revs than the 350 making it a finer drive?

bonusquestion. When was the last time you drove at max top speed?

how often do you floor the throttle and revv the car full from 0-60?

 

 

[Hangie]

There is one more aspect about acceleration and top speed.

It is way better/comfortable/pleasant to accelerate in 8s to 60mph in a car which can do it in 5s rather than maxing out a car which can do it in 7.5s. I don't like to press pedal that hard and hear that engine is struggling (especially in CVT). I don't have anything to back it but I also assume it is way healthier to the engine to work at 40-50% capacity rather 90-100%.

I believe there was some classic top gear were they were proving that M5 can burn less fuel that some ordinary car when driven to 100% small car capacity but only 30% of M5.

Same goes to top speed. I don't do normally 155mph in Germany as it will dry out petrol tank very quickly. My average is 110-130mph and driving/accelerating to that speed is way more comfortable when I don't need to max out to get there. 

 

PS. Did you know that cruise control don't work over 130mph ? 🙂

[Hangie]

3 minutes ago, dutchie01 said:

I think torque is much more important. Seems the hybrid has more torque at low revs than the 350 making it a finer drive?

bonusquestion. When was the last time you drove at max top speed?

how often do you floor the throttle and revv the car full from 0-60?

 

 

Bonus answers:

Speed yesterday but I was limited to 140 due to the winter tyres speed index 🙂

I normally floor it only while joining motorways or accelerating in Germany from 60mph to 120mph. It quite often a surprise to those Skoda superb/A4 TDI driver in the back. They normally stay behind from 100 area.

I'm driving to Poland (through Germany) 3-4times per year. That is why I couldn't live with 300h, but for most peoples I guess it would be sufficient. Like Linas.P I disappointed Lexus decided to forget about few % of its customer who expect/need a bit more.

I'm really interested to see sale chart of new ES in Germany. I got feeling it won't be the best selling car out there.

[superatticman]

1 hour ago, st4 said:

 

Which is a lot more than the ES300h. Still it’ll be a ton more refined. A 520d is terrible coarse - it’s efficient but ghastly

That does matter if you live/travel there.

146mph isn’t that fast. A 3.5 ES with 300bhp could probably break 160mph.


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Not to mention things will go wrong with it aplenty. German engines give good figures but would I rely on a BMW diesel to give me stress free motoring? No chance. 

Glad there's a sense of realism here when it comes to top speeds of motor vehicles. There is a quite obvious exception when it comes to 'Autobahn storming' (those in the know will be able to guess what car I once owned) However you are running a serious risk of getting into serious trouble if you hit 100mph or over. I don't just mean getting apprehended either. The majority of drivers think they are competent and safe. I'd beg to differ. Unless you have been trained specifically for high speed driving then running at high speeds is probably beyond most people's capability whether they realise it or not. The majority of people do not drive over 90mph anyway. That's just in my experience which probably gives an indication of having ran at that speed and rarely been overtaken. Some do go faster but not many. 

Has anyone driven at over 125mph out of interest??? Things don't half get interesting don't they as far as the road flying towards you and distant objects suddenly flashing past. Maybe its a psychological barrier being a nice round number and the top speed of conventional UK intercity trains. 

[Hangie]

I've mentioned few times that I'm doing high speeds in Germany few times a year. GS is quite good car for that, but I prefer to slow down to 110-120 area in corners with not perfect surface as suspension (and down force) is not hard enough for quick corners on uneven surface - especially when you would need to brake. And expect whirlpool in petrol tank 🙂 I've done nice straight bit at constant 140mph which showed 17-18mpg plus at that speed you need to constantly slow down and accelerate which brings that value even lower.

 

[i-s]

I once took my Volvo to 126mph (202km/h) on the A48 somewhere between Koblenz and Trier. Coming back down in speed afterwards 90mph felt like it was very slow - If you're giving it your proper concentration (as of course you should and must at those speeds) then your brain works fast and "normal" seems very slow indeed. It is something that would be very tiring to do for long periods, and I'm sure many don't give it the attention and concentration that it deserves (and we can say that of all driving). 

We will do so with our GS at some point.

[Shahpor]

3 hours ago, Hangie said:

There is one more aspect about acceleration and top speed.

It is way better/comfortable/pleasant to accelerate in 8s to 60mph in a car which can do it in 5s rather than maxing out a car which can do it in 7.5s. I don't like to press pedal that hard and hear that engine is struggling (especially in CVT). I don't have anything to back it but I also assume it is way healthier to the engine to work at 40-50% capacity rather 90-100%.

I believe there was some classic top gear were they were proving that M5 can burn less fuel that some ordinary car when driven to 100% small car capacity but only 30% of M5.

Same goes to top speed. I don't do normally 155mph in Germany as it will dry out petrol tank very quickly. My average is 110-130mph and driving/accelerating to that speed is way more comfortable when I don't need to max out to get there. 

 

PS. Did you know that cruise control don't work over 130mph ? 🙂

This.

I love the fact that I can gently squeeze my throttle and get up to speed reasonably quickly as opposed to working the engine hard.

There are also other examples of when it is useful to have the power in reserve:  Moving away from traffic lights, or overtaking slower traffic.  The second one is especially important to me since I have to commute through 10 miles of single lane carriageway.  There are a few overtaking opportunities, and you don't require plenty of power to get by (my old IS220d used to do just fine), but it is nice to know I can perform the manoeuvre with lots of room to spare.

Also, just because our roads are speed limited, there is no mandate on how quickly we approach the speed limit.  Personally, I prefer the accelerate harder then coast method, so the ability to gain speed quickly makes this much easier.

[Linas.P]

58 minutes ago, Shahpor said:

This.

I love the fact that I can gently squeeze my throttle and get up to speed reasonably quickly as opposed to working the engine hard.

Also, just because our roads are speed limited, there is no mandate on how quickly we approach the speed limit.  Personally, I prefer the accelerate harder then coast method, so the ability to gain speed quickly makes this much easier.

Both of those as well - that is exactly what I related to "luxury/premium cars" - you don't need to push it hard to go fast.

Actually, there was a "hypermiling" research and the most fuel efficient way is to accelerate hard to the limit and keep it there constancy. Not to mention it is as well more efficient for traffic, maximises crossroads capacity etc.

5 hours ago, dutchie01 said:

I think torque is much more important. Seems the hybrid has more torque at low revs than the 350 making it a finer drive?

Except that is not true... even compared with IS250 the hybrid only haves more torque up-to ~1500RPM, then for entire range 1500-7250RPM it has less torque for any rev.

[Dapprman]

6 hours ago, superatticman said:

Has anyone driven at over 125mph out of interest??? Things don't half get interesting don't they as far as the road flying towards you and distant objects suddenly flashing past. Maybe its a psychological barrier being a nice round number and the top speed of conventional UK intercity trains. 

Had a pheasant wander out in front of me as I was doing ~125/130mph and accelerating.

Ok I admit it, I was on the Hanger Straight at Silverstone in a mildly modified JDM RX7 FD3, but it was a very scary moment (swerve and I was likely to lose the rear at high speed, hit the pheasant and the car would have been seriously damaged, with the nose probably being pushed back in to the rather large uprated intercooler and worse).

[superatticman]

I would have thought that in the case of the GS250 at least, that running the engine hard from time to time has some residual benefits too? Was advised by another forum member that failing to do so can result in a carbon build up. Not sure what the ill effects of this are though. Japanese engines in general can handle a good regular workout and in the main will not complain. Some of the 'drift' type cars I've seen thrashed by friends at events yet tens of thousands of miles later are still running perfectly with only standard servicing. These units are built to work hard and over a long period of time. 

However I do agree a genuine luxury car deserves an engine that can be driven in a relaxing manner whilst pushing the car down the road with ease. The GS250 just about manages this due to torque than BHP. The GS450h no doubt excels at this if my test drive was anything to go by. Not sure on the 300h and would be interesting to hear opinions on this. 

Nothing worse than a big car with a small 4 pot NA engine. Remember my dad being disgusted at a Rover 75 1.8 NA that he was once offered. Hours of whiney, high pitched revving and failing cylinder head gaskets to look forward too. 

[Linas.P]

There are no unsafe speed, just unsafe roads to do it. It would be mental to even 50MPH in many roads, yet on decent motorway there are no issues simply cruising at over 120MPH it comfort and all. Yes it needs proper driver training etc. forget it with awful lane discipline in UK, but it is certainly doable. On occasions I was driving at 135MPH in IS250 and it was all normal and well, but at that speed car felt like being pushed, whereas just 15MPH less it felt no different from 70MPH.

The only reason I cannot see myself driving at over 140MPH is that with current ICE cars fuel efficiency drops drastically after 120-140MPH, by which point it just becomes uneconomical and actually slower over longer distances considering refuelling times etc. Obviously, this has all to do with air drag and until we somehow can improve cars aerodynamically it won't change much, the only other way is alternative propulsion where increased drag would not have detrimental effects of range.

@superatticman - occasional reving and pushing of GS250 (or any 4GR-FSE) would make no difference. It is direct injected engine, so it has problems with carbon build-up on intake valves. Not much can be done about it. On port injected or port and direct injected engines this might work bit better, like IS/GS350 (2GR-FSE), however based on some tests - injection valves never get hot enough to burn off the carbon, all cleaning effect is just from soaking them in the petrol.

6 minutes ago, superatticman said:

 The GS250 just about manages this due to torque than BHP. Not sure on the 300h and would be interesting to hear opinions on this. 

[opinion warning] Well 300h is simply less powerful then 250, we may agree to disagree with many on this forum, but check the facts yourself. 250 is 204Hp/260Nm V6 engine, which even when pushed sounds decent and 300h is 178hp engine which combined with hybrid drive makes 221Nm and apparently "equivalent" of 223Hp - from my experience it just feels like 178hp 4pot engine, has a bit more kick low down, but feel really broken if you push-it. Generally, lazy engine which is fine for very gentle driver and just cruising, but give it bit of push and it just feels like falling apart any minute.

[st4]

I think torque is much more important. Seems the hybrid has more torque at low revs than the 350 making it a finer drive?
bonusquestion. When was the last time you drove at max top speed?
how often do you floor the throttle and revv the car full from 0-60?
 
 

About 3 months ago at 144mph in Germany. I’d liked to have gone over 160mph but sadly I don’t have the 5.0 or 450h

Full kick down 0 to 60, strangely the last time I drove the car turning onto the a82 at Firkin Point. I do actually do this quite a lot - just to hear the engine as it makes such a wonderful sound


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[st4]

Not to mention things will go wrong with it aplenty. German engines give good figures but would I rely on a BMW diesel to give me stress free motoring? No chance. 
Glad there's a sense of realism here when it comes to top speeds of motor vehicles. There is a quite obvious exception when it comes to 'Autobahn storming' (those in the know will be able to guess what car I once owned) However you are running a serious risk of getting into serious trouble if you hit 100mph or over. I don't just mean getting apprehended either. The majority of drivers think they are competent and safe. I'd beg to differ. Unless you have been trained specifically for high speed driving then running at high speeds is probably beyond most people's capability whether they realise it or not. The majority of people do not drive over 90mph anyway. That's just in my experience which probably gives an indication of having ran at that speed and rarely been overtaken. Some do go faster but not many. 
Has anyone driven at over 125mph out of interest??? Things don't half get interesting don't they as far as the road flying towards you and distant objects suddenly flashing past. Maybe its a psychological barrier being a nice round number and the top speed of conventional UK intercity trains. 

German cars are hopelessly unreliable - yes but they’re engineered with their domestic market in mind. ADAC are very good breakdown specialists.

I lost my license due to driving at over 125mph quite a few years back. I wouldn’t recommend it but in Germany it is good and right to do and one of the best feelings in the world is being able to drive safely at any speed you want.


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[Jamesf1]

Stupidest thing posted

there are no issues simply cruising at over 120MPH it comfort and all.

No wait it’s this

On occasions I was driving at 135MPH in IS250 and it was all normal and well,

but the winner is

The only reason I cannot see myself driving at over 140MPH is that with current ICE cars fuel efficiency drops drastically after 120-140M

really? That’s the only reason? I just hope the day your arrogance and woeful lack of judgement catch you out no one else unlucky enough to be in the vicinity is seriously injured or worse

 

[Linas.P]

8 hours ago, Jamesf1 said:

Stupidest thing posted

there are no issues simply cruising at over 120MPH it comfort and all.

No wait it’s this

On occasions I was driving at 135MPH in IS250 and it was all normal and well,

but the winner is

The only reason I cannot see myself driving at over 140MPH is that with current ICE cars fuel efficiency drops drastically after 120-140M

really? That’s the only reason? I just hope the day your arrogance and woeful lack of judgement catch you out no one else unlucky enough to be in the vicinity is seriously injured or worse

 

Wow... class... 

Fair enough, if you have no skill to drive don't drive... not even at 70MPH. Maybe it wasn't clear (although if you read my post above is quite clear) the speeds noted were all Autobahn - perfectly legal. I would easily drive at 180MPH without a drop of doubt if there would be suitable roads and I no need to refuel every 15 minutes. Driving in Germany at 120MPH you don't even stay in outside lane, you actually drive with the flow at that speed and change the lanes as soon as you overtake, because quite often cars pass you at the speeds you would think you were standstill. 

I appreciate that in UK, average driver is so bad that driving at 120MPH even on the best road would be ignorant and dangerous, even if you best driver in the world. Somebody would definitely cut in front of you at 60MPH without looking and it would cause mayhem. I would still advocate that speed on motorway must be increased to at very least 90MPH (in line with Europe).

[st4]

Stupidest thing posted
there are no issues simply cruising at over 120MPH it comfort and all.
No wait it’s this
On occasions I was driving at 135MPH in IS250 and it was all normal and well,
but the winner is
The only reason I cannot see myself driving at over 140MPH is that with current ICE cars fuel efficiency drops drastically after 120-140M
really? That’s the only reason? I just hope the day your arrogance and woeful lack of judgement catch you out no one else unlucky enough to be in the vicinity is seriously injured or worse
 

Classic knee jerk post.

Couple of things. If you crash at 70mph you are dead. If you crash at 120mph you are dead. You cannot be any more dead than dead.

If driving at high speed was so dangerous in itself Germany would be a blood bath - but it isn’t.

I appreciate you may not wish to drive at these speeds but plenty motorists do. It’s good and it’s right.


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[Jamesf1]

fair enough didnt realise this was referencing unrestricted autobahn. 

its not a blood bath as less than half is derestricted, and studies have shown average speeds are around 88mph. 

FYI There is a blanket advised speed limit of 81, its just not enforced But if your involved in an accident and proven to be above this speed you can be held liable regardless of circumstances.

My point is - if you think driving safely at 120mph + is all about skill it isnt - its as least as much about luck, the faster you go the luckier you have to be.

I accept that derestricted autobahn is likely considerable safer than UK motorways in terms of other driver behaviour, as high speeds are expected.