End of The GS in the UK

[st4]

I think stupidity is overstating it somewhat
Whilst I agree that an NA ES350 would not work here, it is the fact that they are taking something away when introducing the ES.
Would it have been economical to bring an ES450h to the UK?  Possibly not.  But then it probably wasn't very viable when they produced the mk4 GS450h, but as I own one, I am very glad they did.
So, while I am most likely in a very big minority, when it comes time to upgrade my GS an ES450h would have been high on the list.

Find an LS - lightly used with the drivetrain you want within budget.


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[Vlady]

4 hours ago, i-s said:

Sorry Vlad, not true. 

The UK grid currently consists of about 40% gas, 6% coal, 4% Solar, 14% wind, 21% Nuclear and 5% Biomass. The 2018 annual grid average was 217g CO2 per kWh. My Leaf drives, on an annualised average basis, about 4 miles per kWh (it's relatively inefficient for what it is - Teslas are typically 3-3.5 miles per kWh, Hyundai Ioniq and BMW i3 closer to 5 miles per kWh). That works out to 31g/km CO2 emission, compared to over 100 (in the real world, not euro fantasy figures) for any ICE vehicle, to say nothing of zero particulate or NOX emission in town (in other words, EVEN if an EV had the same emissions as an ICE vehicle, simply displacing them from city centres still has a huge benefit for the health of people in that city).

Another consideration is that in 2013 the UK grid was at 474g/kWh - it is rapidly decarbonising. That means that a 5 year old EV now emits less than half the CO2/km that it did when new. A 5 year old ICE does not. 

Let's ask National Grid themselves, because they know better than us whether it's a problem: https://theenergyst.com/millions-electric-vehicles-sooner-predicted-no-sweat-says-national-grid/ 

Last of all, the far superior driving characteristics of EVs are something to relish. 

Controversial. 

Let's loop this back - WHY do people like 6 and 12 cylinder engines compared to 4? Let's think of adjectives that might be used to describe them - Smooth, refined, torquey, powerful. Electric motors are EVEN BETTER on all of those counts! Full torque, Instantly (no turbo lag or having to build revs). Huge power density. And no engine that relies on explosions hammering on a crankshaft to turn linear motion into circular motion can EVER be as smooth or quiet as an electric motor. 

Given the other discussions we've had about transmissions, consider the "transmission" of an EV - There's simply a reduction gear (typically about 9:1) that is permanently coupled to the motor. There are no clutches, no bands, no gears, no shifts, no solenoids, no fluid pumps or cooling loops. No being in the wrong gear or "rubber banding", no waiting for kickdown.

I had no doubt you would answer first, lol!  :)

I am 100% with you when you say that city centers will be having cleaner air if we all move to electric cars. The point I was trying to make is that by restricting ICE and moving to fully electrical cars will require government to step up and do something about the grid as to provide electricity to all these cars will require a lot of energy and as it stands I do not believe UK is ready for it. As you numbers suggests we get our electricity by burning 40% of gas, well, it will be much much more if the amount of electric cars will swap with ICE.

Electric cars is the future and no doubt some of them are good to drive (never driven one yet) but government support is lagging behind now and it will be the case in a future.

[Linas.P]

15 hours ago, Jamesf1 said:

God there some real stupidity here. No ES350v6 in UK Because It would NOT SELL. The biggest seller of any Lexus models is the 300h by massive margin IS, GS, NX, RC

GS450h Is 250 Is 20T etc sold in low numbers, there is no harping on about a lack of a model that doesn’t sell.

if your argument works why are the big 5 series models the 20d and not the 530 and 540? BMW can carry those models because of massive economies of scale.

lexus are building a niche because they cannot go head to head directly with the Germans in the UK, They are in sales figures terms niche players in the premium uk market

finally, how many of you bemoaners are driving a 3-3.5 litre NA engine car at the moment if it’s such a holy grail? You all have a luxury segment car after all

Exactly.... what as stupid statement... that Lexus does not need to provide different options except of 300h.

Nobody ever suggested  to drop 300h from the market (unless you cannot properly read). Of course most people will choose 300h even if there are other options, I reckon ~70% will go for it anyway. The whole discussion here is however about the 30% who found themselves unhappy with sluggish power 300h offers and don't want to move to another brand. Same is true for BMW, most cars sold are 520d and 520i (~60%), but remaining people don't need to make hard choices to move to another brand (or like @st4 suggested - move to US?!), because they have 530i, 530d, 530e, 540i to choose from. 300h is not the main problem here - lack of choice is!

Secondly, based purely on the price of 300h it lacks performance. I don't care what badge says on the back of the car.. it could be 200h or 100h or 10000h, as long as it provides decent performance I have no issue with it. The cars in Lexus 300h price bracket massively outperforms it and that is just a fact, each of us will have different perspective of what "sufficient" is, but if driving dynamics matter for the person Lexus is automatically becomes poor value/performance for money. It especially hurts RC - which is stunning looking car in my opinion "looks fast even whilst parked", but you get into it and the first thing which comes to mind is ..."really... is this car broken or something".

And you last point is irrelevant - if I would have choice I would drive 3.5L, but there are no choice so I am stuck with at least 2.5 v6 ... still at least better then 300h. That said you will never know, unless model is sold here... In US 350 is the mainstream, but then we can as will argue that market in US is different.

[Jamesf1]

Nobody ever suggested  to drop 300h from the market (unless you cannot properly read). Of course most people will choose 300h even if there are other options, I reckon ~70% will go for it anyway. The whole discussion here is however about the 30% who found themselves unhappy with sluggish power 300h

the whole discussion here is around the 30% - except the non hybrids weren’t pulling in 30% of the sales they went even pulling in 10!!!!!! That’s my whole point the 300h of every model batted 2.0 t, 2.5v6 450h out of the park big time. It’s a shame about 450h but that was the GS- more 300h sold in 5 years than 450h  did in 13 years over 2 model iterations. I’m not arguing the 450h is any anyway bad car far from it, but sales unfortunately not strong enough to engineer ES to take that Powertrain.

snapshot 2018 244 GS 300h sold, 450h 46

85% in favour of 300h

Is example

over 2013 and 14 when 250 sold alongside 300h, fsport trim

v6 170 sold, 300h 1342

94% sales went to hybrid

Lexus are not wrong to not offer 450h never mind 350.v6

[superatticman]

I guess the market for those who want a big reliable Japanese car with some genuine get up and go is simply lacking in the UK. The vast majority of people who want a big, comfy car with some grunt will always head to the German manufacturers. Nowadays this is the default option anyway as nobody else really offers that. Alfa Romeo possibly but they've always been something of a niche market too. Volvo too maybe. 

I'm interested to see how these highly tuned petrol 4cyl NA and Turbo units fair over the long run. Especially those pulling a fair amount of weight about. The larger engines always inspired a confidence that they would take some deliberate thrashing and neglect to break them. 

I'm a little disappointed that there's no real 'upgrade' from my GS250 if I decided to go for an ES in the future. I can empathise with why Lexus have chosen to take this stance though. 

 

 

[Shahpor]

2 hours ago, Jamesf1 said:

snapshot 2018 244 GS 300h sold, 450h 46

85% in favour of 300h

Is example

over 2013 and 14 when 250 sold alongside 300h, fsport trim

v6 170 sold, 300h 1342

94% sales went to hybrid

Lexus are not wrong to not offer 450h never mind 350.v6

Where are you getting these figures from please?

All I can find is this, which doesn't show the full 2018 stats:

https://media.lexus.co.uk/2018/11/lexus-vehicle-sales-figures-1990-2017/

Thanks.

[Linas.P]

3 hours ago, Jamesf1 said:

snapshot 2018 244 GS 300h sold, 450h 46

85% in favour of 300h

Is example

over 2013 and 14 when 250 sold alongside 300h, fsport trim

v6 170 sold, 300h 1342

94% sales went to hybrid

Lexus are not wrong to not offer 450h never mind 350.v6

GS450h was simply badly priced in bad "era" i.e. it was comparable performance, tax and fuel consumtion to BMW 530d during diesel "hay-day" yet it was priced more along the lines of 540i. It was just too early for people to appreciate the car and many buyers were simply afraid of mystical and maybe expensive hybrid failure. Used cars are excellent value for money, but new ones were hard sell for a reason.

GS350 has never been offered and we do not know how it would have sold if it were. So your point is invalid.

GS250 is just bad engine choice for such a big car, and badly priced again - priced against 530i/530d, but performed more around 520i/520d.

GS300h was only introduced to Europe officially on 01/02/2014... So I am confused where your 2013 figures are coming from. Do you mean IS300h?

Based on your logic - GS-F, IS-F and RC-F should not exist... and why they even have LS and LC 500 and 500h... LS300h and LC300h would sell better right?

[st4]

I guess the market for those who want a big reliable Japanese car
I'm a little disappointed that there's no real 'upgrade' from my GS250 if I decided to go for an ES in the future. I can empathise with why Lexus have chosen to take this stance though. 
 
 

There is though - a used LS460, a used new shape LS500h. Thin pickings and I can’t help but think with diesels being persona non grata that expanding the range with genuine petrol competitors along with the hybrids would be the way to go.

It would cost next to nothing to offer the 350 rc and 350 Es here or even the new LS with the 3.0 twin turbo v6. They might grab a few conquest sales.

Kia offer the 3.3 Stinger, Audi the S4. You do see these on the roads and Toyota/Lexus seem keen to ignore that part of the market despite having the cars and drive trains to match.

It’s also time the electric motors in the 300h models could make more power to make the shortful of the engine up.

They shouldn’t have canned the 200t, just priced it cheaper with a little more power.


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[Jamesf1]

30 minutes ago, Linas.P said:

GS450h was simply badly priced in bad "era" i.e. it was comparable performance, tax and fuel consumtion to BMW 530d during diesel "hay-day" yet it was priced more along the lines of 540i. It was just too early for people to appreciate the car and many buyers were simply afraid of mystical and maybe expensive hybrid failure. Used cars are excellent value for money, but new ones were hard sell for a reason.

GS350 has never been offered and we do not know how it would have sold if it were. So your point is invalid.

GS250 is just bad engine choice for such a big car, and badly priced again - priced against 530i/530d, but performed more around 520i/520d.

GS300h was only introduced to Europe officially on 01/02/2014... So I am confused where your 2013 figures are coming from. Do you mean IS300h?

Based on your logic - GS-F, IS-F and RC-F should not exist... and why they even have LS and LC 500 and 500h... LS300h and LC300h would sell better right?

I’m not using logic, just statistical facts

erm LS and LC 300h - no, cars of that market segment/price bracket wouldn’t sell as 300h just like the RX

13/14 is the IS

-F models exist as they are halo cars product planned to sell in low numbers at a high price

GS 350 not offered tells you all you need to know about sales expectations

and your reasons for bad sales are factors but the main being from the sales pattern is -most buyers in those segments value running costs over 0-60, a fact you singularly don’t seem to be able to grasp even with the statistics to prove it

cars in the segments of -f models, And LC performance is valued more than mpg, their rivals are also fast and thirsty, so it isn’t an issue and v8 is offered

[Linas.P]

GS350 not being offered only telsl me about bad sales decisions... we can argue about it forever, but fact is - we don't know. You cannot say car would not sell here - because you don't know... I am just saying I would buy one if it would... You cannot drive statistics from model which is not even on sale.

Running cost difference between GS450h and 300h are minimal... in fact after paying insurance and covering depreciation, things like fuel and MPG makes minute difference.

People who value running cost buys Skoda and Hyundai, not Lexus which just sitting on driveway depreciates twice as much as those cars costs.... every year.

The fact you don't seems to gasp is that Lexus does not provide any choice and that is foolish business logic (well.. unless they exiting the market altogether). Secondly, that offering the car half class below and with inferior performance for the same prices as market leader offer and hoping it to succeed is foolish as well.

@st4 - very true... making RC350 and ES350 is actually cheaper then 300h.

[superatticman]

We will indeed never know whether a GS350 would have sold in numbers or not. The last 3.5 litre NA V6 Japanese executive car was pulled in about 2010 as very few people bought it. It was a fine car, really well engineered although  just short of a Lexus GS overall quality wise. The car in question was of course a Honda Legend. Branded as the Acura RL in the USA and sold in fair numbers. Was well known for being a little underwhelming driving wise and was also very thirsty for its class of car. Reliability was second to none though.

I think the Legend sat midway between the GS and LS size wise.

 

[i-s]

Not the only one.. 

The Infiniti M37 (aka Q70) was sold here. Well.... you could buy one, but that didn't make for sales. 

Between 2010 and 2017 they sold..... 

14.

Compare to the 260 M35h/Q70 hybrid and 406 M30D/Q70 diesels that they sold over the same time period and it answers that particular question, as to how the GS350 might have sold here. Given that the gen4 GS450h sold 711, if we scale the ratio of sales, that suggests they might have shifted 38 GS350s. 

We went and looked at the Infiniti M because the M35h looked like good (used) value next to the GS450h. It didn't take long for us to rule it out - The M has the exact same overhead console as my Nissan Leaf does. The leaf is a very cheaply built car and it's just about acceptable in it - it is totally unacceptable in a "premium" car. 

Oh, by the way @Linas.P - You might want to check out the Q60 3.0T as an alternative to the RC350: https://www.autotrader.co.uk/classified/advert/201809130469753

[Jamesf1]

1 hour ago, Linas.P said:

GS350 not being offered only telsl me about bad sales decisions... we can argue about it forever, but fact is - we don't know. You cannot say car would not sell here - because you don't know... I am just saying I would buy one if it would... You cannot drive statistics from model which is not even on sale.

Running cost difference between GS450h and 300h are minimal... in fact after paying insurance and covering depreciation, things like fuel and MPG makes minute difference.

People who value running cost buys Skoda and Hyundai, not Lexus which just sitting on driveway depreciates twice as much as those cars costs.... every year.

The fact you don't seems to gasp is that Lexus does not provide any choice and that is foolish business logic (well.. unless they exiting the market altogether). Secondly, that offering the car half class below and with inferior performance for the same prices as market leader offer and hoping it to succeed is foolish as well.

@st4 - very true... making RC350 and ES350 is actually cheaper then 300h.

Oh for the love of god. Toyota are the second biggest carmaker in the world, Your  judgement on models offered, bad sales decisions or bad business logic are the rantings of a simpleton who has no understand of global corporate strategy, product planning, consumer behaviour and thinks 0-60 is important whilst driving an old slow car yourself.

My final comment is there is and never will be an ES 350 uk model. Get over it.

[Linas.P]

For any Luxury Japanese car to sell well they need to be significantly cheaper then German. That is exactly how LS became staple in US... it sold like 40% cheaper like for like vs. S-Class.

The difference was that in US Germans could not compete much, the tariffs and weak Yen were favourable for Lexus. However, how they stay on to - is buy offering rage of cars... not only LS400 forever...

Any Lexus would sell in UK, but they need to be priced just above Toyota/Nissan/Mazda and not just below BMW/MB and AUDI. In UK they simply do not have brand recognition to be able to command premium - but that is not bad outcome. Lexus is generally just fancy Toyota, so to sell cars with say 10-15% premium is already better margins for Toyota.

@i-s Q60 3.0T you say... Well I could live with how it looks from outside, but inside is outright ugly mess. Maybe akin - "The M has the exact same overhead console as my Nissan Leaf does. The leaf is a very cheaply built car and it's just about acceptable in it - it is totally unacceptable in a "premium" car. " So... no thanks. I love how RC looks, even more how it looks and feels inside.

@Jamesf1 - I am not pretending to be some sort of genius, but you don't know what I do for a living either so attacking my abilities scores you no points. ES is junk car in any shape or form because it is FWD.. even if they do ES350 I don't care. ES350 AWD... that is more interesting, but not for me. My negative comments re 300h are more general for entire range.

Toyota is the biggest manufacturer in the world, not the second biggest... yet they introduced cars like Lexus IS220d.... "sure... they know what they doing it was genius decision, went exactly as expected.. no issues there - just worst Lexus ever made... by far!".

I cannot say for sure that introducing say RC350 would be great decision, but I am sure they would not loose money on it.. even in UK. They might not gain much either... so I guess they can afford to be lazy about it.

[superatticman]

Ahhh yes the Q70. Briefly considered one of these apart from the fact finding one proved elusive. Keenly priced like the Q50 but quality of interior and external appearance not a patch on the GS. 

I think the pertinent point here though is the fact new Japanese cars prices do not represent great value for money. As second hand buys they are decent due to the quality of engineering etc and the fact German stuff is starting to misbehave after 4-5 years. I'd always trust a looked after second hand Lexus/Honda/Toyota. I couldn't say that about any European car. 

Maybe tariffs are partly responsible for the slightly high prices??? Maybe in the USA they pay less on Jap cars than they do on EU derived stuff??

[Linas.P]

21 minutes ago, superatticman said:

I think the pertinent point here though is the fact new Japanese cars prices do not represent great value for money. As second hand buys they are decent due to the quality of engineering etc and the fact German stuff is starting to misbehave after 4-5 years. I'd always trust a looked after second hand Lexus/Honda/Toyota. I couldn't say that about any European car. 

Maybe tariffs are partly responsible for the slightly high prices??? Maybe in the USA they pay less on Jap cars than they do on EU derived stuff??

I think they decent value for money, however considering depreciation over 5 years buying new premium Japanese car is simply bad monetary decision... well unless you consider it to be last car you need ever.

Used Japanese cars are unbeatable on value for money - same as you mentioned, they are simply reliable. That is exactly the reason why I have IS250... would I buy it new from my own money - no never (I did once, but it was company car). But when I consider I bought my current one 5 years ago for £5000 and now it has 185k miles and still not single thing has failed since new + all other qualities are on par with brand new IS300h (except of "new car" prestige") ... it is kind of hard to justify upgrading. I mean by now IS mk3 is 6 years old and I could justify buying one for maybe £8000, but only if 300h would provide decent performance... which it doesn't - just cannot accept any less power then a little I already have.

[Jamesf1]

11 hours ago, Linas.P said:

For any Luxury Japanese car to sell well they need to be significantly cheaper then German. That is exactly how LS became staple in US... it sold like 40% cheaper like for like vs. S-Class.

The difference was that in US Germans could not compete much, the tariffs and weak Yen were favourable for Lexus. However, how they stay on to - is buy offering rage of cars... not only LS400 forever...

Any Lexus would sell in UK, but they need to be priced just above Toyota/Nissan/Mazda and not just below BMW/MB and AUDI. In UK they simply do not have brand recognition to be able to command premium - but that is not bad outcome. Lexus is generally just fancy Toyota, so to sell cars with say 10-15% premium is already better margins for Toyota.

@i-s Q60 3.0T you say... Well I could live with how it looks from outside, but inside is outright ugly mess. Maybe akin - "The M has the exact same overhead console as my Nissan Leaf does. The leaf is a very cheaply built car and it's just about acceptable in it - it is totally unacceptable in a "premium" car. " So... no thanks. I love how RC looks, even more how it looks and feels inside.

@Jamesf1 - I am not pretending to be some sort of genius, but you don't know what I do for a living either so attacking my abilities scores you no points. ES is junk car in any shape or form because it is FWD.. even if they do ES350 I don't care. ES350 AWD... that is more interesting, but not for me. My negative comments re 300h are more general for entire range.

Toyota is the biggest manufacturer in the world, not the second biggest... yet they introduced cars like Lexus IS220d.... "sure... they know what they doing it was genius decision, went exactly as expected.. no issues there - just worst Lexus ever made... by far!".

I cannot say for sure that introducing say RC350 would be great decision, but I am sure they would not loose money on it.. even in UK. They might not gain much either... so I guess they can afford to be lazy about it.

Facts : base price LS was 12% cheaper than S class at launch in US

Toyota is second biggest by sales 2018

[Linas.P]

3 hours ago, Jamesf1 said:

Facts : base price LS was 12% cheaper than S class at launch in US

Toyota is second biggest by sales 2018

How you compare it like for like.... Have you compared options on S-class, considering LS had many of those standard. Or you simply compared base price vs base price which is not "like for like". Same as new ES is £1000 cheaper then base GS, but it is not like for like - base GS was actually better equipped then base ES.

Toyota second biggest by sales - what does that mean? By absolute number of cars sold? by the profits made, by total sales value? Because the way companies are compared in same market is usually by "market capitalisation" - Toyota Market cap is nr.1 in 2018.

[st4]

3 hours ago, Jamesf1 said:

Facts : base price LS was 12% cheaper than S class at launch in US

Toyota is second biggest by sales 2018

And LS base spec would be a great replacement for those with GS450h's and those with GS250's who cannot stomach the fact of FWD 4 clyinder in ES.

The reality would mean buying a 5yo LS as opposed to a 3yo ES in the used market - Lexus warranty would cover the extra faults anyway so it seems a good way to go. 

[Jamesf1]

53 minutes ago, Linas.P said:

How you compare it like for like.... Have you compared options on S-class, considering LS had many of those standard. Or you simply compared base price vs base price which is not "like for like". Same as new ES is £1000 cheaper then base GS, but it is not like for like - base GS was actually better equipped then base ES.

Toyota second biggest by sales - what does that mean? By absolute number of cars sold? by the profits made, by total sales value? Because the way companies are compared in same market is usually by "market capitalisation" - Toyota Market cap is nr.1 in 2018.

How did you compare? I compared base models and it was 12% difference. That in itself offers a specific view compared to your sweeping 40% statement

Copy pasting big words from Wikipedia has little valu to an informed debate.market capitalistion is value of shares- share price x number of outstanding shares, it has nothing to do with comparing companies in specific markets, and in what way is that relevant, the entire conversation is about no es350 as it wouldn’t sell. Anyway, which either way you define point is they know better than you about selling millions of vehicles in global market, so I agree with therir decision rather than your baseless uninformed opinion on sales potential. Actually arguing Toyota are the highest valued car company by Macap also shows they make the right decisions

[Hangie]

1 hour ago, st4 said:

And LS base spec would be a great replacement for those with GS450h's and those with GS250's who cannot stomach the fact of FWD 4 clyinder in ES.

The reality would mean buying a 5yo LS as opposed to a 3yo ES in the used market - Lexus warranty would cover the extra faults anyway so it seems a good way to go. 

That is my plan in few years time but I doubt 3 years old ES will be at the same price as the 5 years old LS. 

I expect to pay around 35-40k for LS Luxury , I doubt ES  (even Takumi) will be worth that much after 3 years 🙂

 

As for warranty please remember that LS warranty is way more expensive than GS.

GS is £1095 for 2 years where LS is £2395 for 2 years or £1495 for 1 year.

[i-s]

Much as I like the LS, it is simply not a feasible alternative to the GS for many people - for one thing, running costs are WAY higher (not talking about fuel - tyres, servicing, insurance, parts, etc are much higher on an LS/7/S/A8 than a GS/5/E/A6). 

But the main thing that prevented us from entertaining an LS was simply that it does not fit in our garage - the 4850mm GS is a squeeze and the LS500h is nearly a foot longer (5235). 

[st4]

Much as I like the LS, it is simply not a feasible alternative to the GS for many people - for one thing, running costs are WAY higher (not talking about fuel - tyres, servicing, insurance, parts, etc are much higher on an LS/7/S/A8 than a GS/5/E/A6).  But the main thing that prevented us from entertaining an LS was simply that it does not fit in our garage - the 4850mm GS is a squeeze and the LS500h is nearly a foot longer (5235).  

 

 The length isn’t an issue for me and a base spec LS does without air suspension which is a massive plus in terms of repair costs.

 

Most of the drivetrain is shared with the Rx450h and they’re not puntitive to run although the warranty cost is off putting for sure.

 

The ES looks great but I do have some reservations about a car that’ll only do 112mph (when I’m in Germany I drive a great deal faster than this) and I worry slightly the car won’t be fast enough in acceleration. I haven’t owned a car with a top speed as low as that for a long long time and I’m not sure I want to pay for a premium product and travel as slowly as this. Then again I can count on one hand the times I’ve exceeded this speed in the last year...so does it matter?

 

A 350 one would be fine. I drive in Germany at least once a year and live in rural Scotland. Driving is good here and a car with a bit of poke can still be enjoyed although with ever increasing police patrols, deer numbers (yes that’s a big thing here) and higher traffic volumes the opportunities to drive in a sporty way get less and less.

 

Depends on my money situation but my heart says aim for a very late LS460 or LS500h if I can afford it - and head says a Camry or ES.

 

 

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[ColinBarber]

On 1/21/2019 at 12:13 PM, royoftherovers said:

For the U.S. market only surely ?

Yes, it has already gone from Europe.

[superatticman]

Some interesting opinions here. 

One issue I'd like to raise is the demand for an ES to be fast. Lets be frank how many of us really want to put a motor about these days?? Britain's roads are crowded, full of speed traps, full of speed calming measures and have an increasing amount of unpredictable and incompetent drivers being allowed onto our roads. Last year I'd driven my girlfriend's Focus ST for just 20 minutes on Stornoway and received an SP30 for the privilege of having a bit of 10-15 over fun on a very open road. Also received a speed awareness course the same month for roaring out of Luton Airport at 8 over on a dual carriageway. Then only a month later got a warning from TFL having done 25 in a 20! My own fault and stupidity of course but its made me totally rethink the need for having an almost indecent amount of power in what is first and foremost a luxury car. I loved my test drive of the 450h....but seriously...that car was going to get me into a trouble I reckon. Point taken that rapid acceleration is NOT against the law. Plus a car designed for performance is likely to have superior handling and braking thus safer when driven sensibly. However, having power in reserve does increase the chances of speeding unless you are very careful I'd say. The urge and all that!

Its not as if the ES 300h is a slouch anyway. As pointed out on here, 8.1 seconds to 60 was seen as pretty brisk around 20 years ago. Has our expectations over 20 years really increased that much?? Do we need to get to 60 quicker on a more congested highway anyway? Does a large comfy car really need to hit 60 in 6 seconds flat and be able to top 150mph? Of course if you want some Autobahn storming then there maybe becomes some justification for more power. 

Glad the LS running costs issue came up too for those looking to 'upgrade' from a GS250 or 300h. I have to admit its something that would have been a nice option but have questioned my own train of thought with the posting above. The LS is a BIG step up when it comes to total cost of ownership. Is a bigger jump from a GS than a GS is from an IS. Dread to think what a set of discs or even tyres would cost. Was the same going from a 5 to a 7 series BMW. Totally different ball game in fact. The GS/ES on the other hand is still within the realms of just about 'reasonable' I'd day.