End of The GS in the UK

[Linas.P]

32 minutes ago, Jamesf1 said:

The irony of your argument is you have an is250, slower than its competitors 0-60, yet this is a major flaw in the ES?

2. all the more reason why the ability to charge in in a fast car is all the more irrelevant

Contemporary competitors? BMW 325 Auto does 0-62 in 7.8s... that is 0.4s faster then Lexus official time... I can live with that... at least it is in same ballpark. 

2019 BMW 530i does 0-60 in 5.9s, 530d in 5.2s that is like 30-40% faster then ES300h.... that is not 0.0... something... 

At least on IS250 I can comfortably say I lost 3% of 0-62, for 10% extra comfort... You are not claiming ES300h will give 30-40% more comfort then BMW 5-series... are you?

2. not sure how it makes it irrelevant... I mean it is cool if you on that road already, but I was talking about joining the traffic. It seems you will be taking one of two options - wait forever until somebody lets you in or cut in front of somebody and force them to "accommodate you".

[Jamesf1]

Clearly you havnt mdriven a 5 on 19 inch rims, rft and standard suspension

325 7 0-60 I owned one and and is250 and bmw quicker than that margin believe me.

so to recap, your constant slating of the ES is handling and 0-60. Yet you have a Lexus good chunk slower and less dynamic handling than the class leader equivalent. And that’s unacceptable according to you. And yet you bought one. Wierd

[Linas.P]

Run-flats can ruin any car, it has nothing to do with the car itself, junk tyres are junk tyres. If they happen to be low profile as well then it is even worse.

As far as BMW ownership I had 2010 BMW 328xi... It was faster then IS250, but it was 3.0L... what you believe the margins to be are irrelevant as we can only go by the facts. Official figures stands as 7.8s vs. 8.2s... unofficial maybe 7.2s for BMW, but in that case it might be 7.6s for IS250 as well... there are less then a second between the cars. This means if you line-up IS250 vs. BMW 325 at the traffic lights - by next traffic lights BMW 325 won't even be a car length ahead. We can argue about 0.1s here and there.. but it will be nit-picking ..

On the other hand when it comes to ES it is slower by whole 4 seconds, not 0.4.... 4 seconds !!!!... some cars does 0-60 in 4s... ES is slower by that much.. How can you even argue this point - it is like 40% slower.

[Vlady]

7 hours ago, Linas.P said:

Run-flats can ruin any car, it has nothing to do with the car itself, junk tyres are junk tyres. If they happen to be low profile as well then it is even worse.

As far as BMW ownership I had 2010 BMW 328xi... It was faster then IS250, but it was 3.0L... what you believe the margins to be are irrelevant as we can only go by the facts. Official figures stands as 7.8s vs. 8.2s... unofficial maybe 7.2s for BMW, but in that case it might be 7.6s for IS250 as well... there are less then a second between the cars. This means if you line-up IS250 vs. BMW 325 at the traffic lights - by next traffic lights BMW 325 won't even be a car length ahead. We can argue about 0.1s here and there.. but it will be nit-picking ..

On the other hand when it comes to ES it is slower by whole 4 seconds, not 0.4.... 4 seconds !!!!... some cars does 0-60 in 4s... ES is slower by that much.. How can you even argue this point - it is like 40% slower.

I agree with @Linas.P here - ES cost more than £40k, has 2.5ltr petrol engine and it is slower than similar sized cars with 2.0ltr diesel engine that cost £10k less!

I am not saying it is a slow or dangerous car, for example, my wife's car does 0-60 in 10-10.5 seconds and it is acceptable pace (for a 7-seater diesel), what I am saying Lexus should do better for the car that cost that much and wants to be in a class of 5-series MB and A6. 

I wonder what ES time for 50-70mph, I guess not great as engine stat say torque is low (very low).

[Linas.P]

I must admit - something I am saying needs to be taken with pinch of salt. I feel like I am trying to balance out overly ignorant and blindly positive view and it comes out over-analysed and exaggeratedly negative. My real view would be closer to above from @Vlady - if you want to be with market leaders, especially if you claiming to be leading, then you need to do better. I still have an issue with FWD above that of ES generally not keeping pace with the market, but that is more ideological issue then a practical one. 

[GSLV6]

The ES is only really with us in the UK because of USA demand.  It was a big seller in the States and Lexus needed to make a decision whether to maintain models by sales numbers or because we in the UK by and large wanted a BMW 5 series competitor, which the ES by any stretch of the imagination is not. It's not a bad car per se, and I happen to like the interior very much, but the engine is a compromise too far to ever tempt me into one as is the FWD switch from the RWD GS.  I'm not stuck on brand loyalty because brands change the goalposts according to sales and commercial decisions made in the board room. 

For me, the ES is using its interior, styling and badge to try and convince us in the UK that it's worth the cost of a well specified 5 series, which it is not.  Whether it comes gold plated with a 15 year warranty is immaterial.  It uses a relatively small 4 pot motor, lugging about batteries and an electric motor for about-town fluffy friendliness and better low speed mpg but that doesn't do anything for driving dynamics, especially since it is also FWD and it can't hold a candle to some 10 year old diesel 2 litre oil burners, let alone older ER46 6 pot 3 series BMWs (I had one and there's no way the ES matches that on performance or driving dynamics).  So that brings us back to why own one?  That's not ES bashing, that's simply looking at the facts.

People seem to be paying the premium for the badge, the customer experience, the class leading interiors, the relatively cheap running costs (low taxation etc) and not for the performance.  I think that the ES is a hard product to place in the UK because it really doesn't do anything that the IS250 can't already do except to offer a little extra interior space.  I would be in the camp that argues that the GS was the natural break up the product line and for one, am sad to see it go.  So now, we have the ES, then a big jump cost wise if we want an RX, and not everyone wants an SUV.  I've discounted the NX as that doesn't offer much in the way of extra space or performance, if any, to the ES....or IS come to that).  Now and ES with the 3.5 engine and RWD would be an altogether different proposition...oh wait, we had one called the GS!

[Shahpor]

I tend to agree with most of what Paul is saying.  Especially the fact that there isn't going to be a ES450h.  I would also support the statement that the change to FWD is not great, but it is not a deal breaker.

My main issue (apart from the lack of the 3.5 V6) is the lack of choice.  I wonder how many other 'mass market' car ranges have only 1 engine and 3 spec's available?

[Vlady]

1 hour ago, Shahpor said:

I tend to agree with most of what Paul is saying.  Especially the fact that there isn't going to be a ES450h.  I would also support the statement that the change to FWD is not great, but it is not a deal breaker.

My main issue (apart from the lack of the 3.5 V6) is the lack of choice.  I wonder how many other 'mass market' car ranges have only 1 engine and 3 spec's available?

If there was an engine choice in ES line up we wouldn't have all these pages of conversation! lol!

[Shahpor]

True

Although if the only engine choice was the V6 then the last few pages might have looked a little different

[Linas.P]

.... and it is wider issues for Lexus altogether, it is becoming the case of "you can have any engines as long as it is 300h" on any car in the range. And again as mentioned the gap between 300h and the "F" is unnaturally wide... I recon most people would want "little bit" more powerful car ~350 type, but not necessary 500hp full blown performance car.

I was hammering the same point for a while now - "how long shoe store would survive only selling size 10 shoes" (even though for man it is like 60% of the market).

@Shahpor agree re: 350 as well. I am sure it would not fit all people - in fact probably it would suit far less people then 300h does, but that is the point of having choice, not all people are the same and neither 300h is universally suitable or flexible option. One thing which slightly annoys me is that making 350 cost less to Lexus then 300h and many would even pay premium for having 350... so Lexus could have higher margin on it, but they still do not offer it in EU.

[st4]

True
Although if the only engine choice was the V6 then the last few pages might have looked a little different

We can get a V6 saloon - the LS500h and a base spec might be a better option than a high ES.

And the LS is exquisite.


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[st4]

.... and it is wider issues for Lexus altogether, it is becoming the case of "you can have any engines as long as it is 300h" on any car in the range. And again as mentioned the gap between 300h and the "F" is unnaturally wide... I recon most people would want "little bit" more powerful car ~350 type, but not necessary 500hp full blown performance car.
I was hammering the same point for a while now - "how long shoe store would survive only selling size 10 shoes" (even though for man it is like 60% of the market).
[mention=53725]Shahpor[/mention] agree re: 350 as well. I am sure it would not fit all people - in fact probably it would suit far less people then 300h does, but that is the point of having choice, not all people are the same and neither 300h is universally suitable or flexible option. One thing which slightly annoys me is that making 350 cost less to Lexus then 300h and many would even pay premium for having 350... so Lexus could have higher margin on it, but they still do not offer it in EU.

Yep I’d chose a 350 ES but it’s not here. So you have a choice of IS300h, ES300h or the LS500H.

Find a bit more money or buy a low miles base LS500h - the car you want is there.


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[Shahpor]

37 minutes ago, st4 said:

 

 

We can get a V6 saloon - the LS500h and a base spec might be a better option than a high ES.

And the LS is exquisite.


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It might be a viable alternative....if it wasn't for the fact that it was twice the price.

[Linas.P]

No... LS is definitely not for me. I want RC350, I always wanted 2 doors, but RC300h performance insults me... 

[Jamesf1]

God there some real stupidity here. No ES350v6 in UK Because It would NOT SELL. The biggest seller of any Lexus models is the 300h by massive margin IS, GS, NX, RC

GS450h Is 250 Is 20T etc sold in low numbers, there is no harping on about a lack of a model that doesn’t sell.

if your argument works why are the big 5 series models the 20d and not the 530 and 540? BMW can carry those models because of massive economies of scale.

lexus are building a niche because they cannot go head to head directly with the Germans in the UK, They are in sales figures terms niche players in the premium uk market

finally, how many of you bemoaners are driving a 3-3.5 litre NA engine car at the moment if it’s such a holy grail? You all have a luxury segment car after all

[dutchie01]

People just refuse to see the bigger picture. Without the Hybrid engine there would be no ES at all in the UK. Lexus is acting global with the states as its major market. Lexus global is rapidly turning into a manufacturer of suvs or crossovers in all sizes from XXL to XS. The ES is ( apart from the IS) the only sedan selling in numbers and for the US market very important. In the 20 years the ES exists they build over 2 million. The latest version is designed for the states ( 60k p.a.) and the hybrid version is expected to take only 15%. 

In Europe it is a different story mainly by heavy taxation that stears the market. In the UK it is still relatively mild i think but overhere in holland for instance an LC V8 is 50%!! more expensive than the hybrid version. I have no doubt that in most other EU countries this will be alike. Selling a V6 version will just be impossible. On top of that Lexus has rolled out their marketing hybridization story. All models available in hybrid.

Lexus is niche and will remain niche. They have no interest in chasing the German top 3, dont have the capacity nor the strategy. They are aiming on a 10% y.o.y global growth and according to the new top guy want customers that specifically choose them as it fits their lifestyle. Lexus is opening airportlounges, have partnerships with top restaurants. For their cars they want polarized styling and sophistication.

some people just dont seem to get that and keep specifying their own perfect lexus and then are deeply insulted that car is not available. 

[superatticman]

Sad

1 hour ago, Jamesf1 said:

God there some real stupidity here. No ES350v6 in UK Because It would NOT SELL. The biggest seller of any Lexus models is the 300h by massive margin IS, GS, NX, RC

GS450h Is 250 Is 20T etc sold in low numbers, there is no harping on about a lack of a model that doesn’t sell.

if your argument works why are the big 5 series models the 20d and not the 530 and 540? BMW can carry those models because of massive economies of scale.

lexus are building a niche because they cannot go head to head directly with the Germans in the UK, They are in sales figures terms niche players in the premium uk market

finally, how many of you bemoaners are driving a 3-3.5 litre NA engine car at the moment if it’s such a holy grail? You all have a luxury segment car after all

Sadly you are probably right. Big Japanese cars with large petrol engines have a record of not selling very well in the UK even when big petrol engines were more popular. We've lost a number of 6 cylinder petrol models down the years. Legend and Camry spring to mind. I'm sure Nissan and Mazda had a 6 cylinder model on the market in the mid 90s too? So very few sold even though they were actually very decent cars. 

Its also interesting how even BMW are shoving 2 litre 4 pot turbo engines into their mid range engined 5 series. Sadly, whilst a number of us admire the qualities of the 6 cyl engine they are very much going to become a rare beast as the years progress. 

[i-s]

But that's because they're just not necessary anymore. 

Leaving aside the move to electric (which I am very much looking forward to), the need for anything over 4 cylinders has basically vanished. 

My father once had a Jaguar XJ12 5.3, with 285 horsepower and 0-60 in 7.5 seconds. 

Later in life, he had a BMW 740iL 4.4 V8 with 286 horsepower and 0-60 in 7.2 seconds. 

Now, Volvo sell the S90 T6 with 320 horsepower and 0-60 in 5.9 seconds. It is a 2 litre 4 cylinder engine. 

No one really needs more than that, certainly not in any mass-market exec or family car. The use cases for more than that are distinctly limited to very high performance cars. 

The performance and size of the ES300h are in line with a BMW E38 735i V8. Apparently our expectations have moved significantly in 20 years. 

In 20 years time from now we'll be wondering how we all put up with the noise, smell, fumes and horrible driving characteristics of ICE vehicles, as we all drive EVs that will do 0-60 in 4s. 

[Jamesf1]

25 minutes ago, i-s said:

But that's because they're just not necessary anymore. 

Leaving aside the move to electric (which I am very much looking forward to), the need for anything over 4 cylinders has basically vanished. 

My father once had a Jaguar XJ12 5.3, with 285 horsepower and 0-60 in 7.5 seconds. 

Later in life, he had a BMW 740iL 4.4 V8 with 286 horsepower and 0-60 in 7.2 seconds. 

Now, Volvo sell the S90 T6 with 320 horsepower and 0-60 in 5.9 seconds. It is a 2 litre 4 cylinder engine. 

No one really needs more than that, certainly not in any mass-market exec or family car. The use cases for more than that are distinctly limited to very high performance cars. 

The performance and size of the ES300h are in line with a BMW E38 735i V8. Apparently our expectations have moved significantly in 20 years. 

In 20 years time from now we'll be wondering how we all put up with the noise, smell, fumes and horrible driving characteristics of ICE vehicles, as we all drive EVs that will do 0-60 in 4s. 

Yes this is it exactly. We are on the cusp of ice last hurrah. It will be increasingly hybridised to see it through to the death. I for one embrace hybrid as a step to full ev. Before long propelling your car by burning liquified dead dinosaurs will be, well extinct. Yes v12, v8 v6 were glorious wonderful stirrers of the soul and will live on in historic racing, museums etc but Ev’s will be fun too

[Vlady]

Looks like everyone is up for electric cars so there is no fumes or burning dinosaurs, people, where do you think electricity comes from? Especially in UK that has ONLY 1 (if I am not mistaken) nuclear power station and it is that old that can't provide enough energy for one shire! The rest of electricity either from Europe (France has quite a few Nuclear Stations) or from GAS burning, is it not naive to look forward to ONLY electricity? The grid will collapse! 

UK will need at least 20 years if not more to catch up with electricity demand if they want to stop BURNING other type of fuel. 

[i-s]

Sorry Vlad, not true. 

The UK grid currently consists of about 40% gas, 6% coal, 4% Solar, 14% wind, 21% Nuclear and 5% Biomass. The 2018 annual grid average was 217g CO2 per kWh. My Leaf drives, on an annualised average basis, about 4 miles per kWh (it's relatively inefficient for what it is - Teslas are typically 3-3.5 miles per kWh, Hyundai Ioniq and BMW i3 closer to 5 miles per kWh). That works out to 31g/km CO2 emission, compared to over 100 (in the real world, not euro fantasy figures) for any ICE vehicle, to say nothing of zero particulate or NOX emission in town (in other words, EVEN if an EV had the same emissions as an ICE vehicle, simply displacing them from city centres still has a huge benefit for the health of people in that city).

Another consideration is that in 2013 the UK grid was at 474g/kWh - it is rapidly decarbonising. That means that a 5 year old EV now emits less than half the CO2/km that it did when new. A 5 year old ICE does not. 

Let's ask National Grid themselves, because they know better than us whether it's a problem: https://theenergyst.com/millions-electric-vehicles-sooner-predicted-no-sweat-says-national-grid/ 

Last of all, the far superior driving characteristics of EVs are something to relish. 

Controversial. 

Let's loop this back - WHY do people like 6 and 12 cylinder engines compared to 4? Let's think of adjectives that might be used to describe them - Smooth, refined, torquey, powerful. Electric motors are EVEN BETTER on all of those counts! Full torque, Instantly (no turbo lag or having to build revs). Huge power density. And no engine that relies on explosions hammering on a crankshaft to turn linear motion into circular motion can EVER be as smooth or quiet as an electric motor. 

Given the other discussions we've had about transmissions, consider the "transmission" of an EV - There's simply a reduction gear (typically about 9:1) that is permanently coupled to the motor. There are no clutches, no bands, no gears, no shifts, no solenoids, no fluid pumps or cooling loops. No being in the wrong gear or "rubber banding", no waiting for kickdown.

[st4]

No... LS is definitely not for me. I want RC350, I always wanted 2 doors, but RC300h performance insults me... 

LS is very much for me.

Move to the states. You can get the RC350 there or maybe try to import one - it’ll cost you mind.

Or just buy an RCF and fork out the extra cost to run one.


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[st4]

It might be a viable alternative....if it wasn't for the fact that it was twice the price.

Lightly used. They’re truly a majestic car.


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[Shahpor]

12 hours ago, Jamesf1 said:

God there some real stupidity here. No ES350v6 in UK Because It would NOT SELL. The biggest seller of any Lexus models is the 300h by massive margin IS, GS, NX, RC

GS450h Is 250 Is 20T etc sold in low numbers, there is no harping on about a lack of a model that doesn’t sell.

if your argument works why are the big 5 series models the 20d and not the 530 and 540? BMW can carry those models because of massive economies of scale.

lexus are building a niche because they cannot go head to head directly with the Germans in the UK, They are in sales figures terms niche players in the premium uk market

finally, how many of you bemoaners are driving a 3-3.5 litre NA engine car at the moment if it’s such a holy grail? You all have a luxury segment car after all

I think stupidity is overstating it somewhat

Whilst I agree that an NA ES350 would not work here, it is the fact that they are taking something away when introducing the ES.

Would it have been economical to bring an ES450h to the UK?  Possibly not.  But then it probably wasn't very viable when they produced the mk4 GS450h, but as I own one, I am very glad they did.

So, while I am most likely in a very big minority, when it comes time to upgrade my GS an ES450h would have been high on the list.

[KEG]

I agree with Shahpor's comment above. When it comes to replace my GS450h I would have preferred to buy another but that option has been taken away by Lexus in the UK. Lexus say they are not appealing to the mass market and yet  they have removed one of the niche ranges from the UK - I do not know if that makes sense based upon their own principal of being a niche player not competing for volume with the likes of BMW.