End of The GS in the UK

[First_Lexus]

3 hours ago, i-s said:

I personally don't get the fuss over the e-CVT. 

You put your foot down, there's a couple of seconds of engine noise as the car accelerates, then you back off because you're at speed and the noise goes away. It's no different to a torque converter auto in that regard. 

So far the GS e-CVT is my second-favourite car transmission type that I've used. Torque-converter auto is third, and manual and DSG are joint 964th (not exactly sure what's in the 961 places in between, but they're both down there). Hands-down favourite is the single-speed reduction gear (all current EVs) - no lag, rubber banding, clutches or anything.

I’ve never understood the press love for DSG gearboxes. Putting aside the questionable reliability, the lag and hunting for the right gear all the time drives me mad. Having owned the VAG verson - and it having gone bang after 40k miles - I’d never want to own one again. CVT is superior for most normal driving imho.

[i-s]

It was a Passat B6 2.0 TDI DSG that I had the "pleasure" of experiencing it in. I'm so glad that I'm not the only one who had this experience. 

Utter garbage. Press the throttle to get out of a junction/roundabout and the clutches would engage (perfectly smoothly) right away, less than 1k rpm and no boost. No go. At all. The car would limp forward for 10-15 feet until that truck that was 200 yards away when you started doing this is coming worryingly close.... and then the car would launch forward in only a semi-controlled manner...

The next flaw was on the motorway, sudden bunching traffic caused me to decelerate from 70 to 35mph in lane 3. Traffic cleared and pressed throttle to accelerate again - however, the box had kept hold of 6th gear the whole time  until I decided that I wanted to accelerate - it's response to the throttle was not to go, but to change down a gear... that's normal for an autobox.... except that the DSG didn't need to change down one, but three gears and each one had to take their turn - you could see the numbers reeling down on the gear display as they ticked by.... 6.... 5..... 4...... 3 aaaannnnnnnd go! I've never experienced that amount of lag with any torque-converter auto I've ever driven (including all manner of dismal rentals in the USA). 

The NEXT flaw was on the road where I used to live - quite a steep road of terraced houses (can you tell I live in Yorkshire?) - steep enough that each 16ft wide house was 1ft higher or lower than each neighbouring house. Driving up this road to the turning area at the top, 15mph, let the speed come down to 10, down to 5... just by easing off the throttle, no brakes required. However, the DSG decided that 2nd gear was the right gear for this, and the engine lumbered and laboured until eventually as I tried to turn into the ginnel at the top it came grinding to a halt. THEN it decided (finally!) to try 1st gear and attempted to then catapult me full-pelt towards the neighbour's car. 

Eventually having got it turned around I came back down the road to park in front of my house. Parallel park. On a steep road. If you've ever tried parallel parking a DSG car on a  hill you'll understand. DSGs are not capable of gentle easing of power against a slope - the software prevents it because it would burn up clutches in no time. That means that parallel parking on a slope is distinctly kangaroo-like and needs a generous space. My automatic Volvo V70 I could put into a space just long enough that once I was in it both the front and rear parking sensors were going continually - this passat needed a space 50% bigger. 

By no means do I regard torque converter autos as anything like perfect (very variable performance depending on software, fluid condition and quality, maintenance, etc) but they are far superior to the DSG. 

[First_Lexus]

Totally agree with your post @i-s

The DSG is flawed, but the motoring press are unwilling - for some reason - to come to the same conclusion that nearly everybody I've spoken with on the subject. More fool them and those taken in by their pro-German drivel. I've been duped once, but never again. I'm more than happy with the CVT in my Lexus. It wouldn't be suitable for hurtling around a track, but driven like a normal human being in normal circumstances it is just lovely.

[OldTrout]

1 hour ago, First_Lexus said:

Totally agree with your post @i-s

The DSG is flawed, but the motoring press are unwilling - for some reason - to come to the same conclusion that nearly everybody I've spoken with on the subject. More fool them and those taken in by their pro-German drivel. I've been duped once, but never again. I'm more than happy with the CVT in my Lexus. It wouldn't be suitable for hurtling around a track, but driven like a normal human being in normal circumstances it is just lovely.

On the contrary the CVT is superior on the track. In the mid 1990 a CVT Williams Fi car driven by David Coulthard lapped the GP circuit at Silverstone 2 seconds faster that the same car with the standard box. Huge improvement so banned.

John

[Martin J]

These comments are spot on. I was unfortunate enough to be "given" a DSG-equipped Skoda Octavia by a rental company on holiday recently. It was diabolical, to the extent that I found myself wishing I'd rented a cheaper manual car. It was particularly horrible at low speeds in town. And yet the motoring press rarely have anything but praise for them. The Toyota/Lexus hybrid system is vastly superior in real-world driving, in my view. 

[i-s]

I think the reason that the motoring press loves them is because if you are having an A-road blat, shifting up and down with the paddles, keeping the engine on the boil then the speed and smoothness of the DSG is excellent. The flaws that I described occur in much more mundane situations (using it as an automatic on the motorway, maneuvering and parallel parking on non-level ground). Motoring journos seem only ever to drive and judge cars on the basis of blasting it across Wales or Scotland. Under those scenarios I've no doubt that the DSG is very rewarding.

However, most of us don't drive cars that way. That's why there's a disconnect. Most of us do have to move the car around on a slope or parallel park or sit in stop-start traffic for 10 minutes every morning... the things that many of the cars the motoring press loves just don't do so well. 

[Linas.P]

7 hours ago, Jamesf1 said:

+ another for the cvt. First time I drove one (CT200h courtesy car) the big revelation was wondering what the fuss from motoring journalists was all about

In CT it is pretty bad, but that is more to do with engine rather then gearbox. I personally really liked eCVT in RC300h... I wouldn't mind either if the choice would be between standard Torque-Converted Auto or eCVT.

However, I had Passat CC with DSG and as far as gearbox goes - I liked it as well, the car was dreadful 2.0t turbo FWD, but it was nothing wrong with DSG box. I think it has a lot to do with what @i-s stated, they are great on paddle shifters and I drove it more like manual-sequential rather then auto. But I am kind of special case, always drive on the edge, always race between lights and around roundabouts and generally use all opportunities to be antisocial on the road (just joking). Point I am trying to make - if you drive DSG hard it is quite rewarding.

Let's face it - there much bigger issues with ES300h than eCVT gearbox.... and let's be honest to ourselves - nobody except it to do great with car press, because it isn't great car. All the reviews I have seen are really fair and points outs superior build quality and materials, good level of space and equipment, attractive looks, but again fairly points outs that it is bad driving car, just not inspirational and not something one can enjoy.... unless doing 200miles on straight motorway at constant 70MPH... it which case it does not matter - anything would do.

[Initial P]

I noticed recently that BMW went back to a standard torque converter gearbox on the new M5 Vs the outgoing models twin clutch system.

[Jamesf1]

superior build quality and materials, good level of space and equipment, attractive looks

but these matter to a lot of people more than sporty handling. If I commuted via lap of the Nürburgring then I might be bothered.  But I don’t I drive on British roads and appropriate speeds often with my children on board. Even a Ferrari is a dull drive stuck in a traffic jam

[Vlady]

I had a Passat 2.0tdi with DSG for 5.5 years and I never noticed any issues with it, never had any problems quality wise either. Yes, at the roundabouts at first it was dodgy but soon enough I learned how it works/performs and didn't have problems, I just adapted to gearbox I guess.

I agree with some of the comments, DSG is not ideal on a slope (my house is on a slope), not as quick to change down and may be not as smooth in town but honestly I learned the way it works and it never bothered me.

I have nothing eCVT but my opinion it is only suits cars with powerful enough engine (like GS450h), and fair enough I have not driven any IS300h or GS300h but I think it will have a lag as well as smaller engines are not torquey enough so you would end up with constant engine drone every time you want to accelerate briskly.

Regards Lexus ES, I know I am coming back to what people have discussed 1000 times, so it has like what 220bhp and it takes almsot 9seconds to get to 60-62mph, in my opinion it is not acceptable, even Skoda Superb with 2.0ltr petrol (similar power output) and DSG takes like 2 seconds less to do the same sprint. 

ES will be great for cruising only, and slowly.

[Linas.P]

13 hours ago, Jamesf1 said:

superior build quality and materials, good level of space and equipment, attractive looks

but these matter to a lot of people more than sporty handling. If I commuted via lap of the Nürburgring then I might be bothered.  But I don’t I drive on British roads and appropriate speeds often with my children on board. Even a Ferrari is a dull drive stuck in a traffic jam

Only point I am always making - sufficient performance. It does not need to be sleeper or traffic lights GP winner, but it must stay relevant to the times and have acceptable levels of performance. If performance would not matter then we can stick 0.5L engine and do 0-60 in 45s... I am mean on average that that how much it takes to reach 60 in the traffic. You cannot just simply "murder" the car on one aspect and expect other aspects to cover it.

[Zotto]

There will be always someone with a car faster than yours, and nobody can say that a car with 0-60 under 10 seconds has not sufficient performance, same for speed, given speed limits we have now; so the question is only to think that "your car is faster than your neighbor's" , and with silly reason we have today family cars that have performances superior to race car of years ago, while average traffic forces to move more and more slow.

Yes, some German cars are faster, who cares? At least Lexus makes cars very comfortable and does not makes tricks with diesel engines to respect emissions.

[Linas.P]

2 minutes ago, Zotto said:

and nobody can say that a car with 0-60 under 10 seconds has not sufficient performance,

Yes I can - I would call car with 0-60 over 10s dangerous and unfit for public road use, there is expectation for car stopping distance to be deemed "safe" so why it could not be applied to acceleration as well? I sometimes find myself struggling to join faster road with my ~8s car and anything slower than that is out of question... well unless you are that guy who joins 70MPH motorway and drives at 30 for 500 yards causing other drivers to take evasive actions and change lanes - that is called dangerous and inconsiderate driving.  And anything between 7-10s in 2019 as not sufficient. I think sweet spot at this day and age is ~6s, anything below 6s can be considered "fast" and anything over "slow". You can say it is arbitrary, but this is based on average speeds of luxury vehicles o today.

As well you need to recognise the difference here: "There will be always someone with a car faster than yours" - that is something you say when you have Porsche 911 and some guy with 1000hp sleeper van flies past vs. "almost everyone going to be faster"... that is fine if you have classic car which is museum example and you only drive to the show, not acceptable when you buy brand new luxury car. Again if you buy the cheapest economy car on the market - it may be acceptable for it to be withing 40% of slowest cars, but when you by premium car which is positioned literally against industry leaders you expect it to be ~ in top 10%, certainly well above average - ES300h is certainly well below average. 

[Jamesf1]

Sufficient performance is subjective. For many ES will be sufficient. For most public roads most of the time it is more than sufficient. I think the ES is aimed at mature self confident adults who have grown out of 0-60 will girls fancy me with a slow car mentality. 0-60 over 10s dangerous for public roads? Got an answer for how society works without vans trucks and buses? If you struggle with an IS250 then you need to look at your driving

[Linas.P]

32 minutes ago, Jamesf1 said:

I think the ES is aimed at mature self confident adults who have grown out of 0-60 will girls fancy me with a slow car mentality. 0-60 over 10s dangerous for public roads? Got an answer for how society works without vans trucks and buses? 

Yet another irrelevant comparison... Is ES300h a Truck?.. is it a Van?.. or is it a luxury vehicle which Lexus themselves claim is "leading the way in the segment". As part of hazard perception training such topics are specifically covered i.e. if you see truck joining the road, slow down because it can be expected to accelerate much slower than average car.... somehow I cannot remember it being mentioned that if you see Lexus vehicle - slow down, because it can be expected to accelerate much slower then average luxury car...

This is how low ES falls... we are comparing it with trucks, because it has no comparably slow car within Luxury segment or light vehicles... Great!

The next thing we need to discuss then - "what is the age when drivers should stop driving"... because your "mature self confident adults" probably fits the bracket of those drivers who should no longer be on the roads. We need to sometimes recognise that slower is not always safer and that too slow can be dangerous as well.

[Jamesf1]

You stated over 10s 0-60 is dangerous for road use. So trucks vans buses etc shouldn’t be on the road by your logic. When all classes of vehicles share the roads then how do you specify just cars? If a truck can join a motorway safely limited to 56 and a 0-60 of over 10s, why can’t a car? You interact with the road by using anticipation and judgement not how fast you can hit 60 like a boy racer retard.

[scudney]

Opinions,opinions and counter opinions,its what makes the world what it is 😁lol

[mpls]

1 hour ago, Jamesf1 said:

You stated over 10s 0-60 is dangerous for road use. So trucks vans buses etc shouldn’t be on the road by your logic. When all classes of vehicles share the roads then how do you specify just cars? If a truck can join a motorway safely limited to 56 and a 0-60 of over 10s, why can’t a car? You interact with the road by using anticipation and judgement not how fast you can hit 60 like a boy racer retard.

That's a very good point.

The average of UK cars 0-60mph is actually more than 10 secs. So I don't know where the crazy theory of cars doing 0-60 greater than 10 sec are dangerous comes from. But back to Lexus es, a car that can do 0-60 in around 8.5 is plenty fast for an average user. Also it's not just about 0-60, especially when joining motorways, 30-60 is more relevant. 

[Linas.P]

3 hours ago, mpls said:

The average of UK cars 0-60mph is actually more than 10 secs. 

Bothered to share where your "average" comes from? As well "UK's average" car is not Lexus, does not claim to be "leading luxury market" or to be a competitor for BMW 5 series, does not cost ~£40k, nor is not build in 2019.

50-70 or 30-60 - Same point again as in ES thread - why do you assume ES300h is any better at that? 

@Jamesf1 - as I said, driver training specifically deals with "slow trucks joining the road" (unless you don't have training?!) and the limitations of the truck does not apply to Lexus ES. Truck drivers besides other things needs extra training and are extra careful (or at least should be). When I am driving brand new Luxury car the last thing I want to think about is if my car is capable to join the road safely or overtaking, without causing dangerous situation for other drivers.

[Jamesf1]

I think an ES can join a motorway safely. You ought to be able to join the motorway safely in any car 0-60 over 10 or not. If not I’d suggest you should have extra training. If your overtaking, worrying about being able to do so safely ought to be the only thing you worry about. You should be taking in to account the acceleration capability of your vehicle, but also.road condition, layout, markings, speed limit, visibility etc etc. And if in doubt, don’t. After all your not in a race

[Jamesf1]

The irony of your argument is you have an is250, slower than its competitors 0-60, yet this is a major flaw in the ES?

[mpls]

1 hour ago, Linas.P said:

Bothered to share where your "average" comes from? As well "UK's average" car is not Lexus, does not claim to be "leading luxury market" or to be a competitor for BMW 5 series, does not cost ~£40k, nor is not build in 2019.

50-70 or 30-60 - Same point again as in ES thread - why do you assume ES300h is any better at that? 

@Jamesf1

 

Sorry, why shoud I share my findings, find it yourself ! It seems even if cold hard facts were presented in front of you you'd still deny it and twist the facts, evident from many comments you make on this forum.. you are entitiled to your opinion, but you cannot force it on others.

I never said the average car was a Lexus..  did you just twist or did not comprehend the post ? I used the Lexus ES as an example of a car doing 0-60 in 8.5, my pointy being a car that does 0-60 in 8.5 secs is fast enough for an average driver in the UK.. Now even a car doing 0-60 in 10secs can safely join a motorway lessons..

.. if you can't,   I seriously hope you stop driving or get some motorway driving lessons

Back to hybrids, i'm willing to bet i can get my hybrid is300H from 0-60 consistently quicker that your IS250, on average without wrecking my eCVT, and definitely not my clutch as i don't have one.

 

thank you..

 

 

 

 

[Linas.P]

I am happy to bet - what we are betting from, where is the venue?

You are twisting my words just as much - what I said is that for brand new model for 2019, for premium car claiming to be "leading the invasion" and the luxury segment it is unacceptable to be that slow.  By the way - ES300h does 0-60 in 8.9s, not 8.5s... and whereas your IS300h has 175hp from ICE, ES300h only has 156hp, respectively 223 and 200hp combined plus 100kg+ heavier

Not to be able to safely join motorway with long slip roads you would need extremely slow car and retarded driver, but there are many more realistic examples where you have to join busy road or where visibility is limited and gaps in the traffic are scarce and shorts and one needs to try to join the traffic without creating dangerous situation.

[Jamesf1]

The irony of your argument is you have an is250, slower than its competitors 0-60, yet this is a major flaw in the ES?

[Jamesf1]

but there are many more realistic examples where you have to join busy road or where visibility is limited and gaps in the traffic are scarce and shorts and one needs to try to join the traffic without creating dangerous situation.

all the more reason why the ability to charge in in a fast car is all the more irrelevant