End of The GS in the UK

[Ten Ninety]

On 8/21/2018 at 7:47 PM, Linas.P said:

Again is not about sale volumes of those less volume models - it is about having reasonable range. Again why, to restrict it to the engines? they can restrict it to specific models e.g. NX, RX and CT ... IS, GS, RC, LS doesn't sell anyway, those 3 models are probably 75% of all sales? What is you guess how long will Lexus survive only selling 3 cars? Worse... they will probably replace CT with UX... how long would they survive only selling SUVs? But they are most popular in the range you would say?! Don't giving customer choice is worse then importing cars which doesn't sell as well... 

Obviously, I am not saying they should bring 5000 RC350s straight away as that would be disaster, but having few just for sake of giving some choice wouldn't hurt - how much worse could it be then selling 8 RC200t's over 2 years?

I can see the logic in your last point - if the RC350 already exists, it would do no harm to bring (literally) a few over. However, I don't know where the RC is built - is the 350 American market only? Is it built in a different factory? If so, getting a RHD one to UK spec would presumably be too costly to justify. Same goes for the ES - they might shift a handful of 350s if they brought them over, but if they're all currently LHD and built to US standards then I doubt it would be worth the cost to re-do the production line.

On the point about reducing the range, is that not what Renault did to great success in the UK? They cut their model range right down to just the ones which sold well a while back, and I believe they've done very well since. Much as we might not like the idea, I suspect Lexus would survive indefinitely selling SUVs. 

[Martin J]

Hesitate to wade into this passionate discussion, but I want to stress that for at least one Lexus owner, the availability of a hybrid drivetrain was the primary reason for getting into the brand. I think the Toyota/Lexus hybrid system is brilliant, blending mechanical simplicity with sophisticated software to liberate the internal combustion engine to work at its most efficient, while delivering low-speed refinement that was previously only available in very expensive luxury cars, and doing so with outstanding reliability.

 

However creamy a non-hybrid V6/V8/V12 might be, I never want to own a car with something as crude as a starter motor again.  Drivers – and in particular motoring journalists – who’ve been used to conventional transmissions seem unable to get their heads round the idea that an internal combustion engine’s speed might vary with road speed in a non-linear way. But once you’ve accepted that, the planetary power-split gearset and the associated software take care of the rest. Some of the hybrid system’s overall efficiency comes from letting the ICE run in its most efficient operating zones, as well as the recovery of kinetic energy under braking. As a hybrid purist, I’m somewhat sceptical about the added complexity Lexus is introducing by trying to simulate conventional drivetrains with virtual gears, paddle shifters and two-stage transmissions.  Though I'd happily accept the extended loan of an LC500h to explore this further.

 

This just a way of saying that I don’t think all or even most IS/GS/RC/NX300h owners reluctantly settled for hybrids just because of the tax breaks. Some of us love the way they drive.

[royoftherovers]

2 minutes ago, Martin J said:

Hesitate to wade into this passionate discussion, but I want to stress that for at least one Lexus owner, the availability of a hybrid drivetrain was the primary reason for getting into the brand. I think the Toyota/Lexus hybrid system is brilliant, blending mechanical simplicity with sophisticated software to liberate the internal combustion engine to work at its most efficient, while delivering low-speed refinement that was previously only available in very expensive luxury cars, and doing so with outstanding reliability.

 

However creamy a non-hybrid V6/V8/V12 might be, I never want to own a car with something as crude as a starter motor again.  Drivers – and in particular motoring journalists – who’ve been used to conventional transmissions seem unable to get their heads round the idea that an internal combustion engine’s speed might vary with road speed in a non-linear way. But once you’ve accepted that, the planetary power-split gearset and the associated software take care of the rest. Some of the hybrid system’s overall efficiency comes from letting the ICE run in its most efficient operating zones, as well as the recovery of kinetic energy under braking. As a hybrid purist, I’m somewhat sceptical about the added complexity Lexus is introducing by trying to simulate conventional drivetrains with virtual gears, paddle shifters and two-stage transmissions.  Though I'd happily accept the extended loan of an LC500h to explore this further.

 

This just a way of saying that I don’t think all or even most IS/GS/RC/NX300h owners reluctantly settled for hybrids just because of the tax breaks. Some of us love the way they drive.

Well said Martin. You are an oasis in what has been something of a STORM.

I can now cease reading this subject/diatribe, satisfied in the knowledge that I am not alone in the Lexus Universe.

[Jamesf1]

I second that what a great post by Martin

[Vince Donald]

I too agree with Martin on this, I spent rather longer than 12 months looking into what car I was going to get, I ALWAYS came back to the Lexus, now I may have liked an NX, or even a GS 450h but found them a little out of my price range, but found an IS 300h, I even looked at Toyotas though I wanted a little more than the 1.8 hybrid.

Now I'm not looking for a replacement just yet, I've only had mine for about 18 months, but I have been keeping an eye on what could be my next car and it will probably be another hybrid Lexus, there's plenty to choose from, GS, NX, UX (soon) or even an RX.

My only hope is that Lexus will start to embrace plug-in and then ultimately full electric, the Tesla S or X will have to remain a dream for now.

 

Vince

[doog442]

Some great posts and puts the thread on an even keel. Thankyou for posting and reminding  me what this place is all about.

This forum was always about embracing Lexus, not slagging it off at every opportunity,something has been lost in translation along the way.

 

 

[Linas.P]

1 hour ago, Ten Ninety said:

I can see the logic in your last point - if the RC350 already exists, it would do no harm to bring (literally) a few over. However, I don't know where the RC is built - is the 350 American market only? Is it built in a different factory? If so, getting a RHD one to UK spec would presumably be too costly to justify. Same goes for the ES - they might shift a handful of 350s if they brought them over, but if they're all currently LHD and built to US standards then I doubt it would be worth the cost to re-do the production line.

On the point about reducing the range, is that not what Renault did to great success in the UK? They cut their model range right down to just the ones which sold well a while back, and I believe they've done very well since. Much as we might not like the idea, I suspect Lexus would survive indefinitely selling SUVs. 

ES is global model made for all markets, all but EU... until now. All RC's are made in one of two factories in Japan, LHD versions exists in Japan, Australia, Singapore and Malaysia just to name a few, that includes 350, not sure about 350AWD that might be US only model. Literally, just need to get it approved in single EU country and they can sell it across European Union including UK.

https://www.lexus.com.au/models/rc/overview

https://lexus.jp/models/rc/

Funny enough they call RC200t a "RC300".... Seen one of those in China and could not believe it was V6 sound... now I know why (I knew all along it was fake!)

@Martin J and others - Don't get me wrong - I am not against hybrids! However, hybrid does not necessary automatically mean compromise on performance - good example is GS450h... oh wait what? I was told it is being discontinued!

@doog442 where you learned that... in BMW fan club perhaps?! This is Lexus owners club, not bling fans club! When Lexus does something worth embracing I will embrace them - LFA, LC500/500h, GS450h, RC350, RC-F, IS-F all amazing cars, but when they make shait cars I will say they are shait!

[Jamesf1]

Ah well, nice while it lasted

[doog442]

18 minutes ago, Linas.P said:

 

@doog442 where you learned that... in BMW fan club perhaps?! This is Lexus owners club, not bling fans club! When Lexus does something worth embracing I will embrace them - LFA, LC500/500h, GS450h, RC350, RC-F, IS-F all amazing cars, but when they make shait cars I will say they are shait!

They are so amazing you haven't actually owned one.

I'm sure we would all embrace your opinion if you actually walked the walk rather than talk the talk.  

[Linas.P]

Oh... so if you I haven't owned the car I cannot say it is amazing?! How does that work? As such I guess all reviews online and in magazines ... all are pointless, because all those bloody experts, those journalists... they don't own the cars so they cannot have opinion as such... good logic... keep it-up!

[doog442]

It must be amazing looking at all of those cars on the forecourt.

Those journos tend to get a chance to drive the things, do you ? 

[Linas.P]

And you? 

[Ala Larj]

1 hour ago, Jamesf1 said:

 

 

1 hour ago, Linas.P said:

 Literally, just need to get it approved in single EU country and they can sell it across European Union including UK.

@Martin J

@doog442

Well, until next march!

[Vlady]

Hey, what do you all have against BMW forum? I am on one of them, has been for years and it's a great forum! You can actually learn how proud the owners are of their cars, how friendly and helpful they are, stop slugging BMW forum!

[royoftherovers]

8 minutes ago, Vlady said:

Hey, what do you all have against BMW forum? I am on one of them, has been for years and it's a great forum! You can actually learn how proud the owners are of their cars, how friendly and helpful they are, stop slugging BMW forum!

It would be most helpful if that BMW FRIENDLINESS AND HELPFULNESS MANIFESTED ITSELF IN THE FORM OF ROAD MANNERS Vlad.

[Jamesf1]

This thread is going to run so long it will cover discussion of the ES’s replacement😀

anyway, Audi’s worse than BM for bad driving imho

[Vlady]

1 hour ago, royoftherovers said:

It would be most helpful if that BMW FRIENDLINESS AND HELPFULNESS MANIFESTED ITSELF IN THE FORM OF ROAD MANNERS Vlad.

Uau! Big letters? Were you insulted by BMW driver and can't let it go?

I see more AUDI drivers driving aggressive and inconsiderable then BMW drivers, at least it is where I am and even more than AUDI drivers white van drivers, these should be shot on site straight away!

Of course, there are individuals with BMWs that drive crazy but they are being talked about on BMW forum as well – nobody likes them especially people on the forum.

 

I also think that there are more BMW/AUDI drivers as more these cars are sold than say Lexus and most cars on PCP/company cars or driven by younger drivers who are tending to drive anything you give them irresponsibly, they do not care about car repairs or road conditions as they have the car only for 2-3 years.

Most BMW owners I know have families and they like to take it slow (even if they have 535d or 535i engine) and just enjoy the comfort etc as they own the car in most cases.

Also many other drivers just jealous because they can’t do what BMW/AUDI drivers can as they are scared to do it or in most cases their car won’t let them, well, just my opinion.

[royoftherovers]

24 minutes ago, Vlady said:

Uau! Big letters? Were you insulted by BMW driver and can't let it go?

I see more AUDI drivers driving aggressive and inconsiderable then BMW drivers, at least it is where I am and even more than AUDI drivers white van drivers, these should be shot on site straight away!

Of course, there are individuals with BMWs that drive crazy but they are being talked about on BMW forum as well – nobody likes them especially people on the forum.

 

I also think that there are more BMW/AUDI drivers as more these cars are sold than say Lexus and most cars on PCP/company cars or driven by younger drivers who are tending to drive anything you give them irresponsibly, they do not care about car repairs or road conditions as they have the car only for 2-3 years.

Most BMW owners I know have families and they like to take it slow (even if they have 535d or 535i engine) and just enjoy the comfort etc as they own the car in most cases.

Also many other drivers just jealous because they can’t do what BMW/AUDI drivers can as they are scared to do it or in most cases their car won’t let them, well, just my opinion.

Sorry, Vlad.Big letters were my mistake in not realising that caps key was on.

I think that in general you are right.Audi,BMW and Merc drivers are today`s yuppies who can afford these cars and display arrogance and bad manners.

Mt best pal has a BMW however  and he is a gentleman personified in all he does.

I also drive a (old) Merc and try to observe all that I learned from The Highway Code which cost me the principal sum of one old penny!!

[Jamesf1]

Also many other drivers just jealous because they can’t do what BMW/AUDI drivers can as they are scared to do it or in most cases their car won’t let them, well, just my opinion

 

That’s the bmw Audi arrogance right there. I for one am annoyed, not jealous because some of their driving is downright dangerous to other road users including me and my kids. Others don’t do what they do because they are good drivers not arrogant ignorant or selfish in their driving

[Vlady]

34 minutes ago, royoftherovers said:

Sorry, Vlad.Big letters were my mistake in not realising that caps key was on.

I think that in general you are right.Audi,BMW and Merc drivers are today`s yuppies who can afford these cars and display arrogance and bad manners.

Mt best pal has a BMW however  and he is a gentleman personified in all he does.

I also drive a (old) Merc and try to observe all that I learned from The Highway Code which cost me the principal sum of one old penny!!

No problem at all John, i just think it is unfair to say that about any particular car manufactures, anyway, there is no point to discuss these drivers in this thread.

 

[Vlady]

38 minutes ago, Jamesf1 said:

Also many other drivers just jealous because they can’t do what BMW/AUDI drivers can as they are scared to do it or in most cases their car won’t let them, well, just my opinion

 

That’s the bmw Audi arrogance right there. I for one am annoyed, not jealous because some of their driving is downright dangerous to other road users including me and my kids. Others don’t do what they do because they are good drivers not arrogant ignorant or selfish in their driving

James, you aright, sorry, it does sound provocative, I guess.

Here is a scenario: 

Traffic light, 2 lanes going straight, the left one can also turn left (typical UK junction), most drivers will be on outside lane and I will go to the inside and by reading the road and traffic lights on side roads I can be first off the line and nicely join the outside lane 50m further and I don't think I would be doing this in 1.2 Corsa or similar car, so what I am saying is my car powerfull enough to do that maneuver but a lot people don't like it and call it "that idiot BMW driver just cut me off"! I am not sure my point get across, sorry if it doesn't, the downfall not having English language as a 1st language.

Or: my boss thinks I am a fast driver because I used to overtake him on outside lane on a roundabout, I did that because I could maintain slightly higher speed in BMW that he could on his JEEP Renegade and when we where on motorway he went 80mph and I settled to a cruise of 65mph so who is a faster or more dangerous it's hard to say, isn't it? But because I drove BMW I am the one who are called dangerous driver.

[royoftherovers]

34 minutes ago, Vlady said:

James, you aright, sorry, it does sound provocative, I guess.

Here is a scenario: 

Traffic light, 2 lanes going straight, the left one can also turn left (typical UK junction), most drivers will be on outside lane and I will go to the inside and by reading the road and traffic lights on side roads I can be first off the line and nicely join the outside lane 50m further and I don't think I would be doing this in 1.2 Corsa or similar car, so what I am saying is my car powerfull enough to do that maneuver but a lot people don't like it and call it "that idiot BMW driver just cut me off"! I am not sure my point get across, sorry if it doesn't, the downfall not having English language as a 1st language.

Or: my boss thinks I am a fast driver because I used to overtake him on outside lane on a roundabout, I did that because I could maintain slightly higher speed in BMW that he could on his JEEP Renegade and when we where on motorway he went 80mph and I settled to a cruise of 65mph so who is a faster or more dangerous it's hard to say, isn't it? But because I drove BMW I am the one who are called dangerous driver.

In the UK Vlad, we have a Highway Code which is a booklet for the benefit of ALL Road Users (drivers, pedestrians, cyclists,motor cyclists and horse riders). One cannot obtain a licence to drive unless one displays a satisfactory knowledge of its contents and displays suitable competence  when one`s driving skills are examined.

Having passed one`s Driving Test one is expected to display continuously the skills and knowledge that one acquired in order to pass the test.

Failure to demonstrate those skills will not necessarily lead to a prosecution by the relevant authorities,but may  count against the driver , should any prosecution take place.

There are many,many drivers in the UK who having passed their tests proceed to drive "without due care and attention" 

My experience of drivers of Audi,BMW,Mercedes, Subaru, High Powered Golfs and Astra`s is that many of them drive continuously without due care and attention either for themselves or other road users.

[st4]

I’m really happy that hybrid owners like the way they drive and that they’re reliable too.

No one says they shouldn’t be offered but more conventional drive trains can and should be offered too. It would open the marque to more people


Sent from my Iphone using Tapatalk

[Vlady]

46 minutes ago, royoftherovers said:

In the UK Vlad, we have a Highway Code which is a booklet for the benefit of ALL Road Users (drivers, pedestrians, cyclists,motor cyclists and horse riders). One cannot obtain a licence to drive unless one displays a satisfactory knowledge of its contents and displays suitable competence  when one`s driving skills are examined.

Having passed one`s Driving Test one is expected to display continuously the skills and knowledge that one acquired in order to pass the test.

Failure to demonstrate those skills will not necessarily lead to a prosecution by the relevant authorities,but may  count against the driver , should any prosecution take place.

There are many,many drivers in the UK who having passed their tests proceed to drive "without due care and attention" 

My experience of drivers of Audi,BMW,Mercedes, Subaru, High Powered Golfs and Astra`s is that many of them drive continuously without due care and attention either for themselves or other road users.

Nicely said John but only if most drivers followed the code or at least majority, based on how many drivers still tailgating and still drive in the middle lane on motorway this is not the case!

I passed my driving test twice, 1st time in my country and 2nd time I did that in UK 11-12 years ago and since then didn't have any points or fines, touch wood, so I can't say I am a dangerous or a bad driver but sometimes I feel happy/lucky that i drive a car that can accelerate fast.

Anyway, this is nothing to do with GS end in the UK, I love GS and I feel sorry it is being discontinued from UK and I do not believe ES will be better for me.

[Linas.P]

4 hours ago, royoftherovers said:

It would be most helpful if that BMW FRIENDLINESS AND HELPFULNESS MANIFESTED ITSELF IN THE FORM OF ROAD MANNERS Vlad.

That is nothing to do with forum - idiots drives all sorts of cars!

2 hours ago, Vlady said:

Traffic light, 2 lanes going straight, the left one can also turn left (typical UK junction), most drivers will be on outside lane and I will go to the inside and by reading the road and traffic lights on side roads I can be first off the line and nicely join the outside lane 50m further and I don't think I would be doing this in 1.2 Corsa or similar car, so what I am saying is my car powerfull enough to do that maneuver but a lot people don't like it and call it "that idiot BMW driver just cut me off"! I am not sure my point get across, sorry if it doesn't, the downfall not having English language as a 1st language.

If I understood your scenario correctly, then it is called "merge in turn", which is completely legal, but as you said people get upset and defensive about it... not because BMW or other more powerful cars drivers are doing something wrong or dangerous, but because other drivers simply don't know the rules. Secondly, I believe drives in all makes and models does that, but Premium makes like BMW, MB, Audi sticks out more... people won't notice some rust bucket, but if it is nice and shiny premium car they notice it and sub-consciously are probably jealous . Or it is just prejudice that "oh another BMW pilot flying past" even though there is no fault of BMW driver in that situation.

Yesterday, I had exactly same issue (I am driving BMW now) there were 2 lanes merging and it was other lane which has to merge into mine, I let the long van to merge in front of me already and then there were another guy with some rust-bucket cutting me off, preventing me from zip merging even thought technically I was simply continuing on my lane and he was the one to merge. My point - he noted brand new shine BMW going past him in the left lane, because left was going faster as right lane had to merge-in .. and he probably  thought "oh yet another BMW driver undertaking, I am not going to let him in"... again didn't even realise it was actually my right of way!

Other common issue - you will always find some rust bucket in outside lane on motorway doing 65MPH and not moving over. They doing it deliberately and illegally, because they actually have false perception of the rules - "I don't need to move over if I am doing the limit" or " no need to be speeding".. In reality any right lane is for overtaking only and no matter what speed you doing you must move over (lane discipline is unbelievably poor in UK). Then obviously, there is no other way but to blink few times and eventually undertake, because nobody have time to reeducate these people, BUT if you ask them then they would paint totally opposite picture - "those BMW drivers always flying past at 'dangerous speeds', flashing me and then dangerously undertaking"... that would be their perspective of the circumstances. They imagine themselves as some sort of heroes, police wanabe volunteers etc. Whereas in reality, they are the ones braking the rules and creating dangerous situations.