End of The GS in the UK

[Jamesf1]

Don't like my analogy about milk... fine.. here is another one:

Imagine shoe shop.

 

hilarious.  Here’s mine:

imagine a luxury car brand They know a model won’t sell in a certain market. They decide not to import it there. The end.

[Linas.P]

You reckon?!. they probably knew that IS220d would not blow-up gaskets and that nobody would ever buy one with automatic gearbox as well.

Again is not about sale volumes of those less volume models - it is about having reasonable range. Again why, to restrict it to the engines? they can restrict it to specific models e.g. NX, RX and CT ... IS, GS, RC, LS doesn't sell anyway, those 3 models are probably 75% of all sales? What is you guess how long will Lexus survive only selling 3 cars? Worse... they will probably replace CT with UX... how long would they survive only selling SUVs? But they are most popular in the range you would say?! Don't giving customer choice is worse then importing cars which doesn't sell as well... 

Obviously, I am not saying they should bring 5000 RC350s straight away as that would be disaster, but having few just for sake of giving some choice wouldn't hurt - how much worse could it be then selling 8 RC200t's over 2 years?

[dutchie01]

Linas here s an idea: Phone Lexus HQ in Japan tell them you are the Sultan of Brunei and can they build a car exactly as you wish please?

Another one, contact a top end head hunter and ask them if they can arrange a top job at Lexus ( preferably M/D) as you seem to be well qualified and know the answer to all questions.

Last one if the above two fail ( for whatever reason i cannot possibly think of ), contact Eurodisney they are looking for a new Micky Mouse ( parttime job so you can live in your own fantasy in your spare time).  

[Linas.P]

I don't need them to make car for me exactly as I wish.. they already making them.... in fact selling more of RC350's then they do RC300h's worldwide....

So I just need to ask them to import one here...

As for the job... thanks for offer... and don't worry you can keep it 👍

[Jamesf1]

Now punters come for the hybrids. Not the non hybrids. So Lexus are building their uk market range around this fact. It’s not about offering engine choice.

current gen IS had 3 engine options

let’s take the F sport model and compare the time periods they were for sale 

is250 2013 -2015. 178 registered

is300h same period 1871 registered

is200T 2015- 2017 64 registered

Is 300h same period 1269 registered

so, in terms of choice:

2013-2017 is fsport non hybrid = 242

2013- 2017 is fsport hybrid = 3140

With 2 non hybrid choices 1 trim level of 1 model. 

And you argue Lexus sales are lacking because punters really wanted a 3.5 v6? Or that the mere presence of a 3.5v6 in the range would push these numbers up?

[Linas.P]

First reason why IS300h sold until 2017 was because it was tax compliant in UK, both VED and salary sacrifice schemes, from 2018 it is no longer tax compliant, not suitable for salary sacrifice and low emission hybrids still pays £140 VED as non-hybrids.

So what sold IS300h for years between 2013 and 2014 is not because people actually preferred hybrids, but because there were government backing in place - now without backing I doubt this trend will continue. Only PHEVs are exempt now and Lexus have none of them, the rest either hybrids, diesels or petrol will be equally disadvantaged. 

Second reason why it outsold both 250 and 200t was that both petrol options were rather terrible offering by 2013 ans 2015 standards respectively. When I say 250 is good engine - it is good in a sense as the engine designed in 2005, it was rather uncompetitive offer in 2013. The people who went for 250 or 200t could have gone for 350 instead without any issues.

Dropping or not dropping 250.. I don't think that really matters, but designing 200t was massive mistake... this is almost 220d all over again.

[Jamesf1]

Lexus hybrids never had govt backing. No one would buy 3.5v6!!!!! Mpg and co2 !!!!

what is it you don’t get!!!!!

and quantify 20t being a terrible offering?

faster than 300h better mpg and co2 than 250

[Linas.P]

If you not considering £20 annual tax and tax efficient salary sacrifice as government backing .. what can I say. I guess if you mean "grants", then you right they didn't have as much backing as PHEVs (£2500 grant) or electric (£5000+500), but were still advantageous over petrol and diesel back in the day.

If you doing ~10k miles a year (many people do less... and those who do more get diesels anyway) then MPG is irrelevant. Co2 is irrelevant as well - it is just VED which is.

20 minutes ago, Jamesf1 said:

and quantify 20t being a terrible offering?

That is well discussed topic, so you probably better off checking my previous posts (otherwise I am running risk of being told again, not to repeat myself even if you ask me!).

In short.. it is marginally faster then IS250 and it is marginally more fuel efficient + it is not like only IS250 exist in the market - BMW 330i of the same year was significantly faster and probably yet more efficient. Terrible offer compared with other offers on the market for that year... 

If you want to see what significantly better is, compare step between mk1 IS200/300 and mk2 IS250 - IS250 was both more fuel efficient (significantly) then IS200 which it replaced and still faster then IS300 which it didn't actually replace as that was IS350 job. To compare that like for like mk3 IS200t should have been faster then mk2 350 if equivalent improvement would have been made over generation - that means below 6.5s...

[Jamesf1]

No I meant you’ve driven is200t?

[Linas.P]

10 hours ago, Jamesf1 said:

No I meant you’ve driven is200t?

Yes I had it for a day, did my best to understand it and didn't like it at all... the reasons behind it were discussed many times - it did not feel much faster then 250 (if at all), gearbox never seems to get into right gear if you floor it, there is hesitation from stand still, the acceleration is choppy at best and it sounds cr*p.. Otherwise, just cruising along it is fine car, but so is 250 - so what is in there for me to spend 5 times the price + fuel consumption in my normal daily drive is the same, only in certain circumstances e.g. cruising on motorway under 70MPH it has an edge in MPG? The gearbox is nice and fast if you change gears yourself and if you put it in right gear yourself it has nice mid-range torque and power, but if you leave it drive it will never be in right gear for overtaking.

[rayaans]

1 hour ago, Linas.P said:

Yes I had it for a day, did my best to understand it and didn't like it at all... the reasons behind it were discussed many times - it did not feel much faster then 250 (if at all), gearbox never seems to get into right gear if you floor it, there is hesitation from stand still, the acceleration is choppy at best and it sounds cr*p.. Otherwise, just cruising along it is fine car, but so is 250 - so what is in there for me to spend 5 times the price + fuel consumption in my normal daily drive is the same, only in certain circumstances e.g. cruising on motorway under 70MPH it has an edge in MPG? The gearbox is nice and fast if you change gears yourself and if you put it in right gear yourself it has nice mid-range torque and power, but if you leave it drive it will never be in right gear for overtaking.

You do realise that the gearbox uses AI and adjusts to the driver right? We're talking about exactly the same gearbox that was in the GS350 and IS350......pretty sure it's used in the ISF, RCF and GSF too.

Essentially if it's been driven by miss daisy and Lewis Hamilton gets in the car will be confused and the gearbox needs resetting.

The hesitation from standstill is there but the gearbox was spot on when I drove it. The one I had had less than 100 miles on it

[Linas.P]

It is similar gearbox to IS-F, GS-F and RC-F, but not the same AA80E vs. AA81E... I know about it having AI and adjusting for driver style, but that was not it. First of all, say RC-F or GS-F will have wide power band and really there are little difference if it downshift to 3rd, 4th or 5th when you start overtaking - it would still pull strong. On IS200t the engine power band is narrow and therefore it is crucial that it gets right gear e.g. it must be 3rd, because if it is 5th then it would not pull at all. Furthermore, it is about thing which are unpredictable e.g. maybe I start overtaking with pedal half way depressed and gearbox changes to 5th, but mid way overtaking I will realise I won't fir in the gap and therefore I will floor it... then gearbox will have to change again to 3rd mid way in overtaking.

It is not specifically an issue with gearbox or the engine, but combination of both - IS200t probably would be ok with 6 speed auto with longer gears so it doesn't need to change as much gears to stay on power (obviously it would be less fuel efficient then) and AA81E is fine with 5l V8 where being in exactly right gear is not as crucial... 

In short issue with IS200t is the narrow power band of the engine + short gears.

[Jamesf1]

Furthermore, it is about thing which are unpredictable e.g. maybe I start overtaking with pedal half way depressed and gearbox changes to 5th, but mid way overtaking I will realise I won't fir in the gap and therefore I will floor it... then gearbox will have to change again to 3rd mid way in overtaking.

Same with a manual though...

but to my mind this is autos in general. I’m aware in this scenario I’m changing gear with throttle input unless I drop into manual

and of course in this scenario you should pick your overtakes better....

[Linas.P]

Not really, if that would be 350 with 6 speed, then it would be no difference in same situation whenever it is in 3rd or 4th. Secondly, sometimes you overtaking several cars in 4th and all going well, but the gearbox decides it will further drop to 3rd and you lose the power for the moment whilst gearbox is doing it, then by the end of overtake you hit rev-limiter and gear box have to change back to 4th... Basically, that change to 3rd just completely unnecessary and loses you time.

As I said, to really get best of the power you need to set gear manually and that is a bit exhausting to change from 8th to 4th.... I don't have any such issue in IS250 with 6 speed. Finally, it is not only me reporting this "gear hunting" issue... 

[Jamesf1]

Yeah gear hunting would annoy me too, no problem in either is or Gs 250. I didn’t realise 200t was an eight speed box

[st4]

Yeah gear hunting would annoy me too, no problem in either is or Gs 250. I didn’t realise 200t was an eight speed box

I think the gs250 does gear hunt a bit - maybe it’s my driving style and our unique roads here in NW Scotland - driving it in M mode makes a better drive. I’d rather it just had 3 pedals and a H pattern shift but I’m quite unique in not minding to change gear myself - even in an expensive car.

The AA80 box will be better than the a960e and taking manual control over it or using kickdown will solve the issues - or if they’d offered the car with a manual (sorry but I still think I’d choose a MT over an AT in an IS or RC type car) would solve the issue.


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[st4]

As I said, to really get best of the power you need to set gear manually and that is a bit exhausting to change from 8th to 4th.... I don't have any such issue in IS250 with 6 speed. Finally, it is not only me reporting this "gear hunting" issue... 

Just tap the paddle 4 times...hardly exhausting ;)



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[noby76]

10 minutes ago, st4 said:

 

Just tap the paddle 4 times...hardly exhausting 😉



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I know right.. considering the 8 speed gearbox in IS200T takes 0.2 seconds to downshift a gear. so as per the scenario changing from 8th to 3rd would have taken a whopping 1 second to go through the 5 gears..   thats very exhausting 😄

[Jamesf1]

27 minutes ago, st4 said:

 

I think the gs250 does gear hunt a bit - maybe it’s my driving style and our unique roads here in NW Scotland - driving it in M mode makes a better drive. I’d rather it just had 3 pedals and a H pattern shift but I’m quite unique in not minding to change gear myself - even in an expensive car.

The AA80 box will be better than the a960e and taking manual control over it or using kickdown will solve the issues - or if they’d offered the car with a manual (sorry but I still think I’d choose a MT over an AT in an IS or RC type car) would solve the issue.


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Personal preference I guess, after trying it out I hardly ever use m mode, Only where I’m waiting for an overtake opportunity on say an hgv and want to start the manoeuvre in a lower gear for instant pick up.  As for hunting for gears it may do a little but so smooth I don’t really notice

[doog442]

3 hours ago, Jamesf1 said:

Yeah gear hunting would annoy me too, no problem in either is or Gs 250. I didn’t realise 200t was an eight speed box

...and a very nice box it is too. As for the gear hunting, if it happens its almost imperceptible,  you only tend to notice when you have the gearbox display on the dash and see it change. As for overtaking or flooring it, there is a small degree of turbo lag that almost dissipates if you drive in sports mode. If there is any complaint I would say that ECO and even normal mode tend to be on the sedate side, they've tried to eek every bit of economy out of it. 

What I do find quite hilarious is that a certain poster on here lifts a few negatives from  critical reviews, blows them out of all proportion and bangs on about them for an eternity, completely ignoring the many positive reviews and attributes . No Lexus make or model is immune I'm afraid which leads to completely biased and disjointed debate and discussion.

[Linas.P]

I just pick what is important for me from my experience - in fact I have never seen review of IS200t or RC200t... nobody is interested enough to make review about one ... or it might be that I never paid attention to whatever is there.

0.2s is for singular gear change in "physical terms within gearbox", that doesn't mean it only takes 0.2s from the time you tap on the paddle to the time it actually changes gear, this might vary... Furthermore, if you changing 4 gears, it doesn't mean it will take 0.8s - most likely more because there will be delay between gear changes and the delay of the change itself. I believe it might skip the gears sometimes if you tap it quick enough, so sometimes it might take less.. 

Then there is the question of actually knowing which gear will be suitable, again because of narrow power band of engine and so many so similar rations/short gears. I understand that would come with experience driving the car for longer period of time, but my point - it is not simple answer of pressing accelerator pedal. My simple experience is that gearbox was almost continuously hunting for gear, both during acceleration and deceleration... and I didn't like it. Once you set it to cruise at certain speed and it sets the gear it is obviously fine. Same story with BMW320d I am currently driving - never stops hunting for gears and it is both efficient and annoying. 

And I don't blow anything out of proportion, but as anyone I have perspective of what I value and what I don't care about - I have noted everything what I found positive about the car (which arguably isn't much).

[noby76]

regardless of how one looks at it it's a very fast gearbox... funny how one says it has a 'narrow' power band when there is 350nm flat torque between 1650 to 4500rpm.. 

[Linas.P]

37 minutes ago, noby76 said:

regardless of how one looks at it it's a very fast gearbox... funny how one says it has a 'narrow' power band when there is 350nm flat torque between 1650 to 4500rpm.. 

That is only relevant when it is taken into consideration together with the gearing. The "flat torque" you are talking about is achieved on the bench without gearbox even being attached, it is not so flat when you put it in real live scenario at certain real speed with certain gear choice, or multiple gears.

Even if you get actual graph from dyno, that is done in single gear (usually 4th on 6 gear box, not sure what would be equivalent in IS200t... maybe 6th). So you get engine hp/nm curve.. but it means nothing in real terms if say in your situation you are cruising in 8th, press accelerator it drops to 5th, then mid-way trough overtake drops to 3rd, then runs out of revs and changes to 4th.... your real life curve will be all over the place. Compare that with N/A engine dropping from 6th to 3rd and continuing in 3rd all the way and you will realise that your acceleration will be much more consistent there. 

[doog442]

 

I hate Marmite but blow me I've never badgered Unilever to change its taste. I also don't partake in Ribena but I understand they've gone all Lexus on us and changed things. Instead of chucking in a poxy 4 pot (noisy) with a turbo (with massive lag ) and an 8 speed gearbox (thats crap cos its tested on a bench ) they've committed the worlds biggest sin- they've taken out the sugar. Apparently it tastes like dishwater, whatever that tastes like.

You see that BMW forum over there .➡️.......I think they might have reported a missing person.

[Linas.P]

No... they told me I am not welcome, because I reported same issue with BMW320d engine and gearbox...