End of The GS in the UK

[Linas.P]

@Ten Ninety I agree with you on that. However, Lexus/Toyota just not being consistent with their message Akio Toyoda, declared - "no more boring cars". F-Marque creation, LFA, apparently RC, new aggressive styling was suppose to be shift from understated cars to more digressive cars with better driving dynamics to appeal for younger customers... and I am not dreamed that-up - this is all coming from top management in Toyota/Lexus, somehow I cannot see any of that being delivered (except on outside to some extent, somehow lacks substance under the bonnet).

On other hand - they can do both! who do they need to make sacrifice speed for comfort or vice versa. They can develop 300h into PHEV, both increasing the power and making it faster and making more fuel efficient.

@Zotto first of all in UK we have car tax, maybe not as high as in other countries, but in UK we have ridiculous insurance. In short what you pay in high tax we pay in high insurance - ten fold if you young. Young people being priced out of any reasonable cars by insurance. And we have one of the slowest speed limits in the world + massive anti-drivers culture.

What you did makes complete sense, but being younger I want to do exactly opposite form what they want...

@doog442 wasn't worthy the response, if anyone wants they can go back to my post in mk2 sub-forum and check for themselves what I have said. As for IS200t - happy to help!

[Martin J]

As someone who is seriously contemplating an ES300h as their next car (alongside the 2020 2NX), I wonder if the time has come for the administrators to set up an ES forum for discussion of specs, trims, reviews, etc, separate from these discussions generated by the demise of the GS?

[Linas.P]

I don't see the reason why not - we have UX... and had it well before UX was available to buy, so why not ES forum... 

[doog442]

44 minutes ago, Linas.P said:

 

@doog442 wasn't worthy the response, if anyone wants they can go back to my post in mk2 sub-forum and check for themselves what I have said. As for IS200t - happy to help!

I have personally tested that on OBD2+GPS and I consistently get 7.6s for metric and 7.4s for imperial acceleration. I definitely doesn't do anything under 7s (unless modified)... but neither it is 8.4s

 

happy to help-😂..

You magically lost a second from the official 8.4  0-60 times  .... on a 2006 IS250 yet you claim on this thread Lexus underestimate these times by a negligible margin.

yes Lexus underrates acceleration by negligible margin.. say 0.2-0.4s, still they are in different ball park from competitors where the difference is in several whole seconds.

[Linas.P]

I checked it last time around and I stand by what I have said.

0-60 official ~8.1, real ~7.4, different of ~0.7s give or take for rounding

0-62 official 8.4, real ~7.6, difference of ~0.6s give or take for rounding

Where did I said it does 0-60 under 7s or that it is over 1s or "several seconds" faster then official time? Quite clearly I said, it does not do anything under 7! Thanks for proving yourself 👍 

[doog442]

You said the official was 8.4 and you did it 7.4...thats one whole second..

You also stated that Lexus performance figures were negligible yet when it came to your OB1 kenobi  amazon measuring load of crap you  proved otherwise.

I ask the question..if your old 110K mile tub can demolish official performance figures, why cant any other model including the ES do the same☺️

 

 

....and more importantly ..who cares

[Linas.P]

are you blind?  you comparing 0-60 to 0-62 figures. It probably can do 0-40 in 6s, that doesn't make it 2.4s faster then official!

... importantly, seems you do!

[doog442]

Thanks for editing that... hit a nerve did I ?😉

Lets play nice.

[Linas.P]

13 minutes ago, doog442 said:

Thanks for editing that... hit a nerve did I ?😉

Lets play nice.

@Bluesman it was 5 starts "*****" - how offensive can that be? I guess depends on ones imagination of what bad words can be made from 5 letter... 

[Jamesf1]

Anyway does anyone here like the ES?Amongst all the off topic kerfuffle just wondered as I’m not sure. From what I’ve seen so far I do.

[doog442]

 

8 minutes ago, Jamesf1 said:

Anyway does anyone here like the ES?Amongst all the off topic kerfuffle just wondered as I’m not sure. From what I’ve seen so far I do.

I saw one at Goodwood ,sat in it, had a good chat about it, lovely place to be and would appeal to many on here I reckon. 

[rayaans]

1 hour ago, doog442 said:

 

I saw one at Goodwood ,sat in it, had a good chat about it, lovely place to be and would appeal to many on here I reckon. 

Yep I'd buy it if I was in the market for a large saloon. It looks good especially in F Sport trim. I don't doubt it drives good either

[Zotto]

My doubts about ES are about FWD, not particularly about fun to drive, but because till some years ago  for power exceeding 200 HP RWD it was necessary to transfer traction to road without problems to have RWD, but it seems that now the limit for FWD car is higher (250 HP?) and actually my last FWD car, a Hyundai Sonata 3.3 V6 with 235 HP, worked well, provided the natural differences from FWD to RWD, so I am confident about ES; I will just decide if there are real improvements or not over my GS 300h (not so sure).  

[Vlady]

Exterior is not a bad design, quite modern but interior, hmm, I just don't like these 2 little "horns" behind the wheel on top of the dashboard and central panel looks to much like a Toyota but of better quality, much better. Is it still worth extra 10k (euros) over Camry? Especially K have read a new Camry is a very good car!

[gdh300]

28 minutes ago, Vlady said:

 Is it still worth extra 10k (euros) over Camry? Especially K have read a new Camry is a very good car!

And the Camry is returning to the UK market in 2019, allegedly with the same 2.5 hybrid power train (and presumably some other unconfirmed power train option). That will be intreguing to see; could be a massive bargain at a couple of years old...

[Linas.P]

This one just came-up and it touches on many things I mentioned:

• 350 NA is sweet lineal engine, not "F" type unreasonably fast, but just right for luxury car, right sound, right pull, no "sluggishness" my exact words!
• important, the price - they say the way it is priced it is $6000 cheaper then equivalent Audi or BMW! in UK it does not sell because it is (or it would be) £6000 more expensive
• again "no hunting for gears", that is what I said about 8 speed autos, which never seems to find right one.

Don't mind me (guy with 12 years old IS250), but these guys drives IS-Fs, RC-Fs, M3s and they agree Lexus 350 is simple motor yet a lot of fun and character!

.... really it just p****s me off watching it. The simplest possible car, with simple old trusted engine and simple old 6 speed auto and it is so much fun and so characteristically Premium car.. no hybrid nonsense shenanigans, existing technology, cheap to manufacture, reliable and a lot of fun, but no! in UK we getting vegan versions... I know what 300h is - it is vegan stake, it is non-alcoholic vodka - what is the point of it?! I would not have GS and would not have AWD, but simple RWD RC350 would be so sweet! They say it would no sell... Price it right and you can sell anything... 

[doog442]

Yep import one mate and I'll rip the ***** how a 2 litre Audi Turbo will keep up with it 😉

[Linas.P]

perhaps you right, but Audi 2.0t never going to put the smile on your face because it sounds like fart... the point why go for over-complicated 2.0t, 2.5+hybrid set-ups when they had all tooling and everything already set-up for sweet sweet 3.5 v6. Surely, with that development cost saved they could have simply sold cars cheaper... bet they gone for all the struggle to make something more expensive and arguably worse!... what can I say well done... "progress"!

Or on other hand same 450h... it was already 90% there in terms of fuel economy, yet without any drawbacks of turbos etc. Now they going to get another 5% better economy, but half the acceleration and fun - doesn't seems like good compromise.

[Jamesf1]

They say it would no sell... Price it right and you can sell anything...

true but needs to be priced to make a profit and at that price it would not sell.

now please just get over it’s not sold here

[Linas.P]

That's is not really true... When you talk about price and making profit, you need to think about R&D e.g. you need to sell "new" 300h high, because of R&D, you need to sell 200t high because of R&D, same with 8-speed AA81E gearbox, but over 12 years the costs of 350 and A960E R&D were already recovered... they is very cheap to make - much cheaper then either 200t or 300h. If you look at how much it costs Lexus to make RC350 (and I speculate here) I am sure it would be cheaper then RC200t and significantly cheaper then RC300h. Obviously, in model line-up that cheap doesn't make sense, but Lexus can sell 350 cheaper then 200t and still make same or even higher profit. Imagine if Lexus would have not wasted their time and money to create stupid 200t - that would have been win-win.

[Jamesf1]

My point is low volume requires high margin. You can’t just price to sell because rc350 would still be tiny volume. The 200T sold barely over100 cars, the 300h over 1000. 

Any way, the only opinion that matters is Lexus, and they have decided not to sell the 350. Whatever the reasons the bottom line is profit margin, unless it’s a halo vehicle like the RCF or GSF.. And you won’t convince me you know better than Toyota what will and not work

[dutchie01]

The GS is dead. The entire segment is dying, sales of salooncars are just melting as everybody and his mother is running towards SUV/Crossover type cars.

The GS is the past, yesterdays newspaper, melted snow, it is gone. Last year in the UK 428 cars sold, in the states 7773. ( the old ES 51398).

Styling is from yesteryear vauxhall carlton like. Apart from some 8 cylinder enthusiasts and people that understand the silence and quietness of the 300h nobody is interested.

If you think that putting another engine in and placing it in the market at the right price will generate sales you might have a rather simplistic view of how the industry works. 

[Linas.P]

You can call it simplistic and you probably right, but I still see BMW selling 540i, 440i, 140i (or 135) etc. We have Merc C43.... it is "matter of honor" thing. When I say price to sell, I don't mean they should do charity, but only blindly chasing margins hurts brand image. I am sure I am not only one who feels alienated by Lexus inability to offer mid-tier car.

Remember original LS400 - one of the main selling points was that it under-cut Merc by quite a margin, some even suggested it was "loss leader"... the reason why ES sells in US or why GS still sells in US is because they priced accordingly there. Do you really think there is significant difference between making IS, ES and GS for Lexus? NO! Just on ES and GS Lexus has higher profit margin then on IS that is what determines final RRP. Secondly, ES had several face-lifts and upgrades, wheres current GS is EOL model it is nearly 7 years old, so expect sales figures to be on the rise is stupid.

SUV cancer thing is catch 22 - manufacturers advertise them because they have higher profit margins, then customer buys them, then other driver on the road cannot see past bloody things, then more customers buys it, then manufacturers says - "oh they are popular", makes more of them and markets even more and this endless spiral continues. SUV - stupid unnecessary vehicle (that is not to be mistaken with real offroaders).

Going back to my analogy about milk - if we apply Lexus logic there we should only see green milk next time in the market, because majority of the sales are on green and not red or blue (for those not in UK colour of milk lids indicates the % of fat, red is kid-off with'ish transparent water called milk with 0.1% fat, green is ~2% fat and blue is 4%+ fat).

[Jamesf1]

But bmw have volume in other models to be able to carry the 40 models Lexus don’t. And pints of milk even for the least popular sell in huge volumes so not in anyway a suitable analogy for luxury cars

now why not argue the toss with Lexus uk, even if you convince me it’s not in my power to sell the rc350 in the uk

[Linas.P]

I am not trying to convince you... you make a claim, I make a counter-claim and so we go in rounds. Forums are for discussions like these...

Again catch 22 - 

5 hours ago, Jamesf1 said:

But bmw have volume in other models to be able to carry the 40 models Lexus don’t.

That is because they kept the choice, choice increasing interest in band and customer retention, which ultimately resulted in larger sales volumes. Neither they abandoned their customer base with forcing single undesirable engine, because of that they not alienated any customers and kept them in the brand, from time to time customers moved from 40i to 20d, other from 20d to 30d, some other from 30d to 40i, but they were never in position where the only options is 30d.... so over long period of time BMW build-up customer base and hence now they have those said "volumes".

Lexus cut their customer base, alienated their it and therefore they don't grow and have no volume. 

Finally, Lexus still have some volume in 300h, the only problem was that 450h was completely wrongly priced between 540i and M5, instead of being priced between 530i and 540i... just wrong price range - that is all.

5 hours ago, Jamesf1 said:

And pints of milk even for the least popular sell in huge volumes so not in anyway a suitable analogy for luxury cars

Don't like my analogy about milk... fine.. here is another one:

Imagine shoe shop... in UK most popular size for men is 9 (~43EU) - how long will shoe shop survive if they start selling only size 9 shoes? Yes it is most popular one with like 50% of sales, but by abandoning all other sizes they would still lose all the customers eventually. Logically, 50% of customers could have stayed, but the point - you need to give people choice if you want to attract them trough the door! How often it happens that you go to shoe shop, ask for specific size, try it and found that it is too small or too large and ask for next smaller/bigger size? What if you think that you need size 10, whereas really 9 would fit better, but shop only has 9 - would you still ask to try 9 (which you think is wrong size) or woudl you just go to another show which has all sizes from 3.5 to 16?

If I revert that to the cars... if Lexus would offer say IS200h, IS300h, IS250, IS350, IS450h and IS-F then the customer will come for IS300h, but find it too slow and would get 250, or found it too expensive and get 200h... now customer does not think that 300h suits their needs and just excludes whole brand altogether. Again maybe after driving IS350 customer would think - nah actually I don't need all this power and 300h will be fine when it comes to upgrade, but because 350 was not offered in first place the customer had gone for BMW330i and therefore don't even considers Lexus as possible alternative.