End of The GS in the UK

[Linas.P]

29 minutes ago, Jamesf1 said:

Last time I looked a whopping 2 RX 200T’s had been registered in the UK.

I actually disagree that there is issue of not having non-hybrid for RX, however 200t for the car as large and as heavy as RX is joke... so when we say "oh 200t was not-hybrid and didn't sell, so lack of non-hybrid version is not valid argument" we need to understand that not any non-hybrid engine. Take for example RC350 - yes that would be interesting, but would RC150t would be interesting - no certainly not, it would be joke as RX200t is joke.

@rayaans - I never said that IS250 can do 0-60 in under 7s, neither I ever claimed that opinions disagreeing with that are irrelevant and nobody cares about them. You pretend to represent collective mind, I only ever represent myself - here is big difference. Every time somebody claims 300h is good enough, I will come and say it is sluggish, because it is. If I use same terminology as you do, then - "stop repeating same old crap in very thread that 300h is transparently good enough and ok!" . If you exhausted just bugger off to Tesla forum.

[st4]

No they aren't. They both had one a couple of years ago, nobody wanted it so Lexus dropped it. Lexus' whole marketing in the UK is based around being a hybrid company. If you want an RX type vehicle with a non-hybrid drivetrain then you aren't the customer Lexus is looking for.

 

If the car had the 350 petrol engine minus the batteries and £5k less they would sell.

 

At this price bracket buyers are enthusiastic about cars - and are more likely to be enthusiasts in some shape or form otherwise they’d buy a Toyota, VW, Skoda or something more mass market and non premium.

 

Given the cost of the cars - these are bought by wealthy people who by and large tend to be older - few young people can afford an expensive car so catering to older buyers is good, wise and right. If older buyers want 6 and 8 clyinder engines - then that is what they should have.

 

 

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[st4]

If Lexus did a RC350 in this country, the comically out-of-touch motoring press would love it and rave about how much better it was to drive than the 300h and then literally nobody would buy one. Well, maybe not nobody. Maybe a handful of brave souls from the tiny (and diminishing) band of ageing 'enthusiasts' who still care about things like number of cylinders, throttle response and the ability to overtake 'safely' would stump up the cash. At least, those who weren't dissuaded by the lack of a German badge, the prospect of terrible running costs and the guarantee of absolutely catastrophic depreciation. 
I don't think hybrid drivetrains are the reason people are put off from buying a Lexus - if anything it's probably been their unique selling point in recent years. If the hybrid-only CT was so hopelessly different and out of touch, why was it Lexus's biggest seller following its introduction? It's only recently been surpassed by the on-trend NX, also in hybrid form. If people really wanted non-hybrid Lexuses, why did the 200ts sell so poorly? 
Like it or not, with diesel's long-overdue death finally underway, hybridisation (in its various forms) is the short-term future until we transition to EVs. I would suggest that Lexus might be better off capitalising on all those years of expertise and pushing their hybrid technology just as it's gaining mainstream acceptance, rather than wasting resources on trying to flog cars with antiquated old engines to an ever-shrinking bunch of die-hards. 

Maybe - but the cars have such a good “chassis” in terms of steering/braking and a well judged ride/handling that errs towards sporting that bigger engines would fit in well.

And the diehards would come


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[Jamesf1]

Oh for goodness sake. So why armchair experts aren’t Lexus selling this in uk?

[Linas.P]

23 minutes ago, Jamesf1 said:

Oh for goodness sake. So why armchair experts aren’t Lexus selling this in uk?

Well... you tell us? I would be certainly one of the first in the queue to get one...

I can say... maybe because they are stupid, or maybe because market is too niche to care, or maybe other reasons. Your question in itself is kind of weird - we are saying, that we don't understand why they don't do it and you asking us why they don't do it - "if only I knew..."

[Jamesf1]

It’s a rhetorical question.

it’s because it wouldn’t sell enough as per my last post. Round and round we go as some still don’t get it. Cue another post from someone saying it would despite all the evidence to the contrary which includes that fact that it’s not sold in this country.

do you think Lexus with all their experience, financial and market analysis simply don’t understand their own line up and markets in which they operate?

[Ten Ninety]

1 hour ago, st4 said:

And the diehards would come

You're probably right, they would. Both of them. 😀

I don't doubt that an RC with a 350 would be a decent driver's car, but enthusiasts with money who want a Lexus will surely just buy an RC-F or an LC, whilst those who are less financially blessed will surely buy a more affordable second-hand example of what they really want? If someone could financially afford to weather the savage depreciation on a fictional brand-new RC350 at, say, £35k, I fail to see how they couldn't afford the running costs of a pre-owned RC-F for the same money.

Are there people out there who can't afford the new car they really want yet are still clinging on to their dreams of being a driving god, whilst refusing to countenance buying anything other than a brand new vehicle? Undoubtedly, but they're all in 440is or C43s or S5s already. I can't imagine why Lexus would want to try and expend any effort penetrating that market for such little potential reward. Especially not when they can't hope to match the Germans on monthly payments.

[Jamesf1]

2 minutes ago, Ten Ninety said:

You're probably right, they would. Both of them. 😀

I don't doubt that an RC with a 350 would be a decent driver's car, but enthusiasts with money who want a Lexus will surely just buy an RC-F or an LC, whilst those who are less financially blessed will surely buy a more affordable second-hand example of what they really want? If someone could financially afford to weather the savage depreciation on a fictional brand-new RC350 at, say, £35k, I fail to see how they couldn't afford the running costs of a pre-owned RC-F for the same money.

Are there people out there who can't afford the new car they really want yet are still clinging on to their dreams of being a driving god, whilst refusing to countenance buying anything other than a brand new vehicle? Undoubtedly, but they're all in 440is or C43s or S5s already. I can't imagine why Lexus would want to try and expend any effort penetrating that market for such little potential reward. Especially not when they can't hope to match the Germans on monthly payments.

Yep.

dont get me wrong RC350 is appealing to me also, but I get and agree why not uk

[dutchie01]

There is an other development going on in the Automotive world that i did not see coming. Was at a Mercedes dealership the other day admiring the C class coupe and convertible. They had a couple standing there fully loaded and looking like a million dollars. Only when looking up close i found they were not so expensive at all and the reason was the drivetrain. C180 with 1.6 ltr 4 cyl with 136 hp and c200 with 154 hp. I asked the dealer if people were seriously buying these versions and he showed me the salesfigs in their computer, they sell like hot cakes!!

apparently there is a market out there that happily cruises along with traffic in luxury in great looking cars at relatively low purchase prices and at low running costs. I Did Not Realize that!

i wonder if that reached the UK yet?

BTW what Lexus needs to do is engineer some lightness in their cars they are too heavy. Engines are just fine but with 200 kg less it will be a different world.  A C class is over 300 kgs lighter than an IS but much aint it..      

[Jamesf1]

BTW what Lexus needs to do is engineer some lightness in their cars they are too heavy. Engines are just fine but with 200 kg less it will be a different world.  A C class is over 300 kgs lighter than an IS but much aint it

 

you should email Lexus with that. Bet they never thought of it.

and the difference you quote is more like 150kgs. Granted the c160 saloon is more like 200 Kg lighter, but with 127 bhp it blooming needs to be

[Linas.P]

1 hour ago, Jamesf1 said:

Round and round we go .... 

all the evidence 

which includes that fact that it’s not sold in this country.

Yes indeed it is circular... but can you not see how flawed is you statement - it doesn't sell well, because it is not available in this country and because it is not available apparently that is a fact to prove it would not sell?! What? That is catch 22... Do you think 440i sells in large numbers, even S5, C43... No! I am sure 420d outsells 440i like 30:1... But that is not the point, the point is to have full line-up because you are freaking luxury brand, so you have to at least to some extent try to tailor to costumer needs.

Now here is another catch 22 argument @Ten Ninety presented - "Everyone who wanted mid-tier sports car already have C43, S5 or 440i"... well yes, that is because they didn't have an option to get RC350. That is the point - if you want to expand in the market you have to offer more choice and over time build-up client base. If Lexus would bring RC350 to UK it would take at least 2-3 years to phase in, which obviously now would be stupid when model is already 4 years old and already sales flop. Would they had it from 2014, that would be different story. Furthermore, RC350 is great car, but it isn't all that interesting... something like RC450h would have had very special and very appealing combination as good alternative to C43, S5 and 440i. What is that interesting combination - well all German cars are turbocharged which comes with pros and cons, whereas 450h would be hybrid, kind of electrically charged both with instant torque and crisp NA V6.

Now I know what you thinking - if 450h would be that interesting GS450h would have sold well. Here is the deal - for large performance saloons there is totally different clientele and performance figures are much less important then for sports/luxury coupes, secondly GS450h was priced almost at M5 level which would have never worked out. Even M5 being symbol of full size performance saloon market it niche product... again something like 520d outsells M5 100s:1. Again very strange strategy - when GS mk4 was introduced the only option was pretty much 450h at very top end and GS250 at very bottom - neither of which were competitive cars 450h was priced well too high in M5 territory where it had no chances, there were no GS-F and 250 which was barely enough to power IS250 in 2005 was simply uncommunicative offer in 2012. One thing is to get GS250 now for £15k, totally different proposition was to get it new for £37k... on top of that 2012 was the year ruled by diesel cars before all the "diesel gates" so any petrol car was in disadvantage from outset. That was later partially fixed with GS300h as entry level - but as always it was too little too late.

@Jamesf1 - now you say - "don't you think Lexus with all those managers and market research don't know better"? NO! they freaking don't - they whole strategy and line-up for last 10 years was one big continuous mistake.... starting with IS mk2, no 350 model, 220d had no automatic option, GS introduction was total failure without suitable entry model, nor high-end , IS mk3 introduction was failure again without any high-end model, IS-F was not replaced, IS-C was not replaced, RC introduction was failure - massive gap in the middle, low-end too low, high end-too high, no convertible (even though it was clearly intended - concept models were made etc.), completely misjudged regulatory environment and missed PHEV bandwagon...

The reason Lexus is still around in UK is SUV market rocketing and they happen to be there by pure luck! They kept castrating their line-up and that is death spiral - less model you have on offer, less people gets interested in your brand, less people buy, then you reduce non-selling models and the spiral starts again. Opposite is true, you introduce new models - they might not be great sellers at first, but they bring people into brand recognition and even though specific models might not sell, people will buy something off you.

[Jamesf1]

because it is not available apparently that is a fact to prove it would not sell?! What?

really, you can’t get your head around that?

So, I ask again then why you think the RC 350 is not sold in the uk?

[Linas.P]

15 minutes ago, Jamesf1 said:

because it is not available apparently that is a fact to prove it would not sell?! What?

really, you can’t get your head around that?

So, I ask again then why you think the RC 350 is not sold in the uk?

Well you - explain, that is what you said! - "it’s because it wouldn’t sell ... despite all the evidence ...[like] fact that it’s not sold in this country." You use fact that it is "not sold" to enforce your point that "it would not sell". Do you see anything wrong here?

My guess would be - because Lexus long term strategy was to castrate customer interest in their brand, by continuous poor decisions and by continuous reduction in choice... And now it would not sell because overtime there are no more people who would buy-it... maybe?

However, that is not end state - they can start making decisions which actually makes sense, overtime they can reintroduce interesting models, which would reignite interest and get the customer back to the brand.

I guess the final question is what types of customers they want - if they want unemployed house wifes with 3 kids, pensioners, retirees, non-engaged drivers... they doing all correctly - they are currently alienating everyone who cares about driving dynamics (F-marque exists, but it is too steep for average consumer) and who likes driving.

From begging Lexus was known as "pensioners brand", however I thought they wanted to change that, to appeal to younger clientele, more driving and performance focused. If that is the case they doing it wrong, if the case is to go back to the start and continue selling retirement cars, then they are right.

[Jamesf1]

Ok I’m out you are friggin not right up top. All that ranting some of which really doesn’t make sense, about how Lexus get it all so wrong You bought one you d!ck!!!

[dutchie01]

The truth is that Lexus is a Global Company and their strategy is to grow the salesvolume by 10% year on year. This is a global number with the States and China now as spearhead markets. So far this year they are almost 7%  up on last year and with the new ES hitting the markets now they expect to end the year around 10%. Outlook for next year is positive with the introduction of the new small SUV that is expected to be a success. The SUV range is expected to be complemented with a new top model in 2019 as well.

The UK market is good for a total of approx 13.000 cars PA ( all models together) which is a marketshare of 0.5%. ( Total european marketshare is 0.29%). 

So, they seem to be more or less on track.

[Linas.P]

My car is 2006, if it would be released now or in 2013 is would be s**t car - for 2006 it was ok, for £4000 it is great. Contrary, RC300h for £40k is not great - if that is how Lexus imagines what young buyers wants, then I can simply say they are wrong! Maybe they think young people are stupid and they don't understand about driving dynamics? They only want "cool" looking toy which looks "300MPH and 1000hp" when standstill and doesn't go at all? Do they get idea from riced fiestas and civics? Is that the image of young driver they have - sort of "shallow d*****bag who only cares about the looks and nothing of substance"? In which case I am offended by their view and quite reasonably unhappy...

Obviously, you can say I am the one who has taken the offence and nobody cares - my problem. But then don't get surprised when I am all over the forum telling how terrible 300h is - because it is not f****** great, nor ok! It is car apparently designed to attract young buyers with the drive train designed for pensioners... I know what that is called - it is called ricer!

@dutchie01 - yes I am sure, housewives are ecstatic about cute little SUV and pensioners will be more then happy with loafy the loafy face ES with acceleration of the snail.

[dutchie01]

Linas, isnt it time to see a doctor??  

[Jamesf1]

I pity the the people who use the future ES forum. Imagine how stupid they will feel when they realise they should of bought an 06 is250

[Ten Ninety]

 

1 hour ago, Linas.P said:

Now here is another catch 22 argument @Ten Ninety presented - "Everyone who wanted mid-tier sports car already have C43, S5 or 440i"... well yes, that is because they didn't have an option to get RC350. That is the point - if you want to expand in the market you have to offer more choice and over time build-up client base. If Lexus would bring RC350 to UK it would take at least 2-3 years to phase in, which obviously now would be stupid when model is already 4 years old and already sales flop. Would they had it from 2014, that would be different story. Furthermore, RC350 is great car, but it isn't all that interesting... something like RC450h would have had very special and very appealing combination as good alternative to C43, S5 and 440i. What is that interesting combination - well all German cars are turbocharged which comes with pros and cons, whereas 450h would be hybrid, kind of electrically charged both with instant torque and crisp NA V6.

That is a fair point. However, I don't believe Lexus would have been able to offer an RC350 or an RC450h at a price point that would have been competitive with the Germans, and definitely not on a monthly PCP/Lease basis. It would still have failed. That was the GS450h's problem - as you rightly note yourself - it was a great car but most people probably saw it as just too expensive for what it offered compared to the equivalent Germans. 

45 minutes ago, Linas.P said:

I guess the final question is what types of customers they want - if they want unemployed house wifes with 3 kids, pensioners, retirees, non-engaged drivers... they doing all correctly - they are currently alienating everyone who cares about driving dynamics (F-marque exists, but it is too steep for average consumer) and who likes driving.

From begging Lexus was known as "pensioners brand", however I thought they wanted to change that, to appeal to younger clientele, more driving and performance focused. If that is the case they doing it wrong, if the case is to go back to the start and continue selling retirement cars, then they are right.

The 'younger clientele' are far less driving and performance focused than the older crowd, and they care far more about emissions and environmental issues, too. A lot of young people don't want cars at all. At least, not to own. Many teenagers today don't even care about learning to drive - they want someone else to take the wheel so they can sit in the back taking selfies and posting more crap on Instagram. All the manufacturers know this, which is why they're rushing headlong into developing autonomous vehicles and offering subscription models. The technology won't be ready in time to meet the demand (real autonomy is probably 15-20 years away), which is where Uber and the like will come in to fill the gap. In the meantime, I reckon Lexus is doing the right thing by targeting the more mature market, as that's where the money is right now. The funny thing is, I suspect they're actually more likely to attract the youth by producing sharp-looking cars that are cool to pose with, which also have strong environmental credentials. Speed, performance and driving enjoyment are total non-issues. After all, the slower you go, the more people get to look at you.

16 minutes ago, Linas.P said:

pensioners will be more then happy with loafy the loafy face ES with acceleration of the snail.

Genuine LOL. Thank you. This whole thread has been worth it, just for that comment!

[Linas.P]

Yes... I guess I am "wrong kind" of young person. Real bas*** who dares to have values beyond looks... like quality and driving dynamics - that was really unexpected, Lexus was caught unprepared! Thanks god -  there are not many of such people.. 

I would say sometimes you need to do right thing even if it is not the best way to exploit the market...ohhh but I forgotten Lexus is "for profit" organisation and not charity. I am really out of touch with my 18th century sentiments... sorry... 

[Jamesf1]

Total rubbish again. Not many people who don’t value driving dynamics? The huge rise in suv and crossovers shows there are many. But you are right in that your the wrong kind of young person . I suspect Lexus are looking for people with more than a 4 k budget

[Ten Ninety]

3 minutes ago, Linas.P said:

Yes... I guess I am "wrong kind" of young person. Real bas*** who dares to have values beyond looks... like quality and driving dynamics - that was really unexpected, Lexus was caught unprepared! Thanks god -  there are not many of such people.. 

I would say sometimes you need to do right thing even if it is not the best way to exploit the market...ohhh but I forgotten Lexus is "for profit" organisation and not charity. I am really out of touch with my 18th century sentiments... sorry... 

There is absolutely nothing wrong with being in a minority, nor should anyone feel the need to apologise for their views (sarcastically or otherwise!).

I would like to see Lexus continue as a niche player, producing some interesting left-field cars. My preference would be for them to produce some slower, more economical cars that prioritise comfort. You wish (I think) for them to produce some faster, more engaging cars to drive that prioritise driver enjoyment. I suspect that in reality neither of us is likely to have our wishes granted because we are both in too much of a minority for it to be a profitable enterprise for them. Perhaps we can agree on that?

[doog442]

On 8/16/2018 at 7:36 PM, doog442 said:

Nah mate. You said the official was 8.4 and you had done it in 7.4..

You cant move the goalposts when you simply feel like it..

If we were to apply your logic to the ES then it brings it within what some people (a minority ) might deem an acceptable standard.  I doubt most potential buyers would really care. 

@Linas.P   

I've been away for a few days. You never did respond to this post. 

 

cheers

[Zotto]

May be you living in UK miss an important point: taxation. Where I live (EU) for years politics told people that if someone drives a car with many HP is rich and for this reason guilty, and at the moment for each HP exceeding 250 a owner has to pay 20 Euros more  (plus the "normal tax for just having a car of 2,58 Euros /HP ). Meanwhile, speed limits are more and more controlled and even a little speed  over the limit is punished in not such a proportional way. but at expensive 2 steps. So I, happy owner of a GS450h decided to trade it of for a GS300h trying to avoid to be robbed by this laws. Besides, hybrid at least have taxes only on thermal engines, imagine  to pay for a car not hybrid. Same for diesel cars, illogically gasoline costs here 10 euro cents more than diesel fuel. Very rich people now tend to buy electric cars because of no ownership taxes despite all HP they can have, and electricity costs far less gasoline.

All this in the name of ecology….

No wonder if Lexus decided to sell hybrid cars with less power here…  And in the future it will be worse for high CO2 vehicles.

[doog442]

1 hour ago, Jamesf1 said:

I pity the the people who use the future ES forum. Imagine how stupid they will feel when they realise they should of bought an 06 is250

I actually fear for the future of this place. I recall the birth of the IS250 , the IS300h, the CT and dare I whisper it the IS200t.(you know that slow / thirsty old 4 pot with a sh it turbo lobbed on 😉)

The excitement, joining a community of like minded people, the build up etc only to find a bloke in a 12 year old IS250 rocking up to rip you and your pride and joy up for arse paper.

I'm sure it'll go down like a lead balloon.