End of The GS in the UK

[mpls]

2 hours ago, Linas.P said:

Yes, but Germans already found an answer to Diesel issue. They took all the best from hybrid and made it better in form of PHEV, sad story for Lexus - in 2005 they were too early with hybrids, when everyone (including government schemes) wanted diesels, now in 2018 they are too late with hybrids, when everyone (including government schemes) wants PHEVs.

It seems pretty obvious (at least for me), that you should make what government supports and subsidises, there was diesel era, now it is PHEV era.. Lexus has missed the point again. Now obviously PHEV's are nothing new.. strangely enough Toyota was one of first to make it, but for some reason German makes are the first ones to sell it in Premium segment. Why Toyota haven't pushed it through the Lexus is beyond me.

I can only speculate, that it is because PHEV thing is mostly European and thus European makers are mostly focused on in. Europe is not focus for Lexus, they are much more focused on US where neither hybrid, nor PHEV is that big of the thing... so even though they clearly understand EU and PHEV thing, they not really interested in fighting for it.

PHEVS  hybrids use Lithium ION, and as Toyota have found that there is only so much charge anc discharge on them.. unlike the robust NiHi  used in most Toyota/lexus Hybrids.. Isn;t Toyota looking as jumping to next gen batteries ( bypassing Lithi). in its Solid state batteries...  but having said that they do Plugin Priuses  using Litium Ion..

PHEV when the juice runs out, has been shown to be less efficient than Toyota/lexus vehicles.. so I dont agree that everyone else has suddenly overtaken Toyota/Lexus..  just ony in certainn applications.. e.g. lots of short journeys  and constant plug in to recharge...but in continues longer journeys ( beyond the range of pure EV)  Toyota/Lexus will win on economy

 

 

[mpls]

I  think one more thing, Toyota has been looking at Hydrogen, and in doing so it does not mean they are not aware of PHEV with Lithium Ion..and for reason mentioned above they are researching and developing next generation Battery, either for full EV or Hydrogen ( less chance of this) ,, I have read  few artiucles about the reasoning behind Toyota placing less emphsis on PHEV. hybrids due to above reasons.

As for pure PHEVs, how much of a car  is Battery ( full of Lithium Ion), Battery tech isn;t quite ready for full mass market..  probably just one generation away, hence Toyota's research/evelopment in solid state Battery, to improve density/power etc.. hence didn;t Toyota annouce their game changer solid state plans..?

[Linas.P]

I was already in the bed and damn tapatalk notification came - this literally me now:

@Ala Larj - OK! Lets close the shop then... people not happy about 300h performance, cannot make objective criticism and can go buy something else, ones who don't like IS220d reliability can go buy something else as well - why IS220d owners should listen to something negative about their cars, people who don't like IS250 can yet something go somewhere else again if they don't like it is EOL model and not as fuel efficient.... Sounds great?! What is the point of being on forum if we cannot criticise the flaws or compliment the great thing about our cars?

Do I have problem with 300h... no not at all, it could be even 200h.. as long as it performs as it should. I don't care what they do, I don't care how they do it, if it can do what BMW 330e does  - I would be happy, if anything I would praise it. As long as it is going to be as slow as it is I will criticise it.

@mpls I didn't say (or at least didn't mean) that PHEVs are better then hybrids full stop, there are circumstances where one or the other will have an edge. My point is that - sales are where government support is. It was on diesels, now it is on PHEVs... it has never been on hybrids, they never sold in great number (exception prius) and they will never do. Secondly PHEVs like BMW 330e does better then say IS300h in several aspects - acceleration, EV miles, MPG, taxation, availability (I simply cannot order 300h on company, it is not eligible due to Co2).

@First_Lexus - I haven't missed what you said, I just don't think you deserve any response. 

[st4]

 
 
Some of the reasoning don't make sense..  How is Audi able to distinguish itself from its VW/Seat/Skoda sister plaform ?
Surely Lexus is able to distinguish the ES from the Toyota Avalon ( or Camry) despite sharing the same underpinnings ?
I cannot believe that Lexus can make such a fundamental mistake.
3 things Audi does to distinguish itself from its sisters cars,
1. style & quality of material 
2. perceived quality and image  ( marketing plays a huge part)
3. Perfomance ( on average better than its sister cars, tuned or bigger range if engines)
On a separate note, I think German premium makes (except maybe BMW) over the past 8-10 years have benefited from cheating diesels  as a whole.. in the light of recent heavier crackdown on cheating. in diesels. makers such as Lexus deserve a bigger market share ( more of the public may have not chosen German by default had all this kicked off sooner) and should be praised for having the forsight to give up on diesel 8 years ago.. The last labour goverment also had a part in jumpomg on the whoe CO2 band wagon by promotimg diesels.
Note also there was an independent report that noted all Euro6 diesels  go over the standard in real world usage.. some many times over..
The German biased press publications in UK has a lot to answer for IMO.

Most Audi’s aren’t direct copies. The A4 upwards have proper north south mounted engines and 4wd drive not a transverse engine with a haldex system like the lesser cars in the lesser marques. Skoda was a good budget alternative but price/trim they’re too close to VW. Seat is excess baggage imho for them.

I agree our press is very Euro biased but I suspect the ES won’t be as good as what it replaces and the Camry a bit of a gem given what it’ll cost.


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[dutchie01]

If only the GS got as much attention in the showroom as in this threat ey?

[st4]

If only the GS got as much attention in the showroom as in this threat ey?

I imagine if it was sold with 2 and 3 litre diesels and the 2.0t and 3.5 petrol engines with the 8spd auto it would have done a lot better.


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[Linas.P]

1 hour ago, st4 said:

I imagine if it was sold with 2 and 3 litre diesels 

 

Those better be reliable thought... 😄

[st4]

Those better be reliable thought... [emoji1]

 

No but people make bad choices. Hence why the roads are full of 520ds not 540is

 

Toyota uk should have cashed in on this.

 

 

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[Linas.P]

4 hours ago, st4 said:

Toyota uk should have cashed in on this.

Yep... but they should have done that long ago, now next "big thing" are PHEV's.. Like several of my neighbours have PHEVs - Audi eTron, BMW 330e.. and I know for a fact thet they have nowhere to charge them, so they drive them as simple petrols recharging the Battery sometimes... If I would get company car that woudl have to by PHEV as well - not other type is compatible with 75g Co2 rule... So I would have PHEV as well with no options of properly charging it.

I feel government pulled the plug on hybrids far too early and now in result it will take even longer to reduce emissions. 

[st4]

Yep... but they should have done that long ago, now next "big thing" are PHEV's.. Like several of my neighbours have PHEVs - Audi eTron, BMW 330e.. and I know for a fact thet they have nowhere to charge them, so they drive them as simple petrols recharging the battery sometimes... If I would get company car that woudl have to by PHEV as well - not other type is compatible with 75g Co2 rule... So I would have PHEV as well with no options of properly charging it.
I feel government pulled the plug on hybrids far too early and now in result it will take even longer to reduce emissions. 

Plug in Prius exists. That Battery I bet will see it’s way into a Camry and Lexus at some stage.

Me, I’m a dinosaur I just want petrol powered rwd saloons with a nice north south mounted engine and reliability inbuilt


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[talaipwros]

sorry to bring this into the discussion, but perhaps Toyota is replacing the UK made Avensis with nonUK made Camry because after Brexit Toyota will leave UK?

 

[royoftherovers]

1 hour ago, talaipwros said:

sorry to bring this into the discussion, but perhaps Toyota is replacing the UK made Avensis with nonUK made Camry because after Brexit Toyota will leave UK?

 

Toyota has committed to building the new Auris at Burnaston thus replacing the Avensis build.

[talaipwros]

Just now, royoftherovers said:

Toyota has committed to building the new Auris at Burnaston thus replacing the Avensis build.

thanks, but isn't Toyota already building the Auris in the UK?

 

Don't know, we'll see I guess

[dutchie01]

With the brandnew Camry and ES Hybrids where does that leave the IS ??

[Linas.P]

1 hour ago, talaipwros said:

sorry to bring this into the discussion, but perhaps Toyota is replacing the UK made Avensis with nonUK made Camry because after Brexit Toyota will leave UK?

Thinking about it, as for Brexit they would probably do opposite i.e. if they build Avensis in UK it would remain tariff/duties free. Whereas if they import it from elsewhere it will be subject to additional delays and fees. Obviously in reality is not as simple as most of the products made in UK (especially complex machinery, cars planes etc.) have very international supply chains, so in fact most of them are barely assembled here, thus paying one off fee on Camry might indeed be cheaper, then paying fees individually on many components.

I know it sounds like I am contradicting myself here, but Brexit is such a mess it is impossible to talk about it without contradictions. I personally don't believe Camry/Avensis has anything to do with Brexit, much more economy of scale and product development costs associated, but it might well be... who knows.

@st4 - same here - I would take RC-F straight away, however my circumstances are such that I can have only one car. Daily driving RC-F in London would be mental (some people already thinks that I am mental to daily drive in London anyway), as such I would be leaning hybrid or if that meets my needs PHEV (actually PHEV makes a lot of sense, because I would be able to daily on EV range alone and almost never buy the petrol). Now 300h is clearly too slow for me.. I am not trying to ignite new discussion, just stating same as it is enough for others it is not enough for me. GS450h would be just right - best of both worlds, more fuel efficient then my current IS250 yet almost as fast as IS/RC350, but sadly I just don't like GS looks, nor I need large 4 door car, I need coupe. Mere existence of GS450h in line-up meant some hope that maybe one day we going to have say RC450h... That is probably the only reason why decision to discontinue GS is so annoying for me. Much more for 450h power plant, much less for the car body itself. 

[dutchie01]

3 hours ago, talaipwros said:

sorry to bring this into the discussion, but perhaps Toyota is replacing the UK made Avensis with nonUK made Camry because after Brexit Toyota will leave UK?

 

Main worry for toyota uk will be to prevent productionlines beeing shut down as parts will not be available. They propably need to overstock big time to prevent this from happening.

car factory is based on just in time deliveries of parts from all over Europe. Just think about it if trucks are beeing stopped at the border.

Less than 1 yr away and counting..

 

[st4]

With the brandnew Camry and ES Hybrids where does that leave the IS ??

 

Not replaced as to engineer a whole new longitudinal mounted rwd platform for a smallish car that wasn’t a big seller won’t make much sense. Particularly as the GS won’t be replaced. They’ll stick with longitudinal engines rear drive probably only for the LS/LC and transverse/FWD for everything else.

 

Grab these rear drivers whilst you can. There’s a few IS200t and rc200ts on low miles kicking around

 

Expect more transverse mounted fwd cars and SUVs. That’s what people seem to buy and it’s cheaper to engineer one platform then spin off a variety of models off it. It’s working for Volvo.

 

Imho unless you got big bucks you’re better off in the Camry than ES and the money bin your pocket.

 

 

 

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[talaipwros]

1 hour ago, dutchie01 said:

Main worry for toyota uk will be to prevent productionlines beeing shut down as parts will not be available. They propably need to overstock big time to prevent this from happening.

car factory is based on just in time deliveries of parts from all over Europe. Just think about it if trucks are beeing stopped at the border.

Less than 1 yr away and counting..

 

yes, which explains why it makes sense to just stop the Avensis altogether 

Interesting "coincidence" that as it says here:

https://www.automobilemag.com/news/2019-toyota-camry-hybrid-launched-europe/

Camry will replace Avensis throughout Europe in the first quarter of 2019 .

makes one wonder 

[talaipwros]

the more I think about it the more obvious it gets.

So Avensis production for the whole of Europe will stop in the first quarter of 2019 without any other UK built model replacing it. And that was announced three days ago, the same day as the Airbus announcement

 

 

[Jamesf1]

https://www.autocar.co.uk/car-review/toyota/camry/first-drives/toyota-camry-2018-review

 

cant get away from this feels like a good Toyota model, vs Mondeo, Insignia, Passat, but not as a Lexus model vs 5 series, e class. Personally I doubt id justify the additional spend of the ES over the Camry..

[st4]

https://www.autocar.co.uk/car-review/toyota/camry/first-drives/toyota-camry-2018-review
 
cant get away from this feels like a good Toyota model, vs Mondeo, Insignia, Passat, but not as a Lexus model vs 5 series, e class. Personally I doubt id justify the additional spend of the ES over the Camry..

Neither will I and as a local Toyota dealer is 1mi from where I live.

Tbh I bought the GS because Lexus IS Toyota. If the Camry is pretty much as quiet and comfy as my GS I’ll be ok. Sure I’ll miss six clyinders, the handling but saving £10k plus has its pluses.


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[Martin J]

Although the ES shares its platform with the Avalon/Camry I'm not entirely convinced that you can in effect buy the ES for thousands less by getting a Camry hybrid instead. Having recently done some time in a RAV4 (substantially same platform as NX) I was surprised at just how much better the NX was in terms of refinement, material quality, and design.  My expectation would be that the ES will be a similarly big step up in quality and refinement over the Camry. I guess whether it's worth paying for that added value is a subjective judgement.

[dutchie01]

Price will tell. Btw the new Camry is supposed to be a very good car a big jump compared to the previous one. Stylingwise in some versions it could be a Lexus?

where does it leave the ES i have no idea.. when we know the price it will be more transparent but the car seems to be the odd one out. long and narrow, not so sure about the styling, no choice of engines.

will it outsell the GS ? Only time will tell but i have my doubts

[Vlady]

19 hours ago, st4 said:

 

Neither will I and as a local Toyota dealer is 1mi from where I live.

Tbh I bought the GS because Lexus IS Toyota. If the Camry is pretty much as quiet and comfy as my GS I’ll be ok. Sure I’ll miss six clyinders, the handling but saving £10k plus has its pluses.


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I visited my parents last week (Eastern Europe) and popped in to Toyota/Lexus dealership, I had a chance to sit in both, Camry and ES. You can see and feel that the ES is more expensive inside, better materials are used, even though the cars were similarly equipped the ES cost was about 12k euros more!

Ukrainian (Camry is very popular in Ex-soviet rep's) car magazine had a test comparing Camry, Kia Optima, Ford Mondeo and Mazda 6 and Camry took 1st place with Kia to follow, Mazda and Mondeo.

I am translating here - "The Camry is still very smooth and comfortable to drive, quite, spacious inside, well specced and this time is very good to drive. The bad points are: old graphics of the displays, small boot and no seats cooling.

So I think you are right, may be there won't be a point to pay extra 11k for ES if Camry that good!

[Jamesf1]

On 6/22/2018 at 8:57 AM, Jamesf1 said:

New order by me - that’s all standard on the top trim. It does have a Bose stereo dab etc but can’t comment as I’m a few weeks from delivery. It is the 2.5 which is new to uk but the US had it for a couple of years.

This is the spec and colour I’ve ordered

 

Well the GS is staying. My dogs have way chilled out and now behave really well in the back of my car. Decided in that case to stick with the Lexus 👍