End of The GS in the UK

[Vlady]

8 hours ago, Jamesf1 said:

Kit same as my GS plus

adaptice headlights

radar cruise

Emergency city braking

powered tailgate

head up display

4 zone climate

heated rear seats

360 parking camera

front/rear cross traffic warning

sunroof

19” wheels

touchscreen

thats all I can think of off the top of my head

 

James this one is very well speeced car, did you buy it new and spec it yourself or a previous owner did?

Does it come with BOSE sound system? I am asking as my Lexus is the 1st car that has decent sound system (Mark&Levinson), jhow would you compare it to BOSE, are they any good?

Did you say 2.5l engine you have? 

Cheers!

[Jamesf1]

New order by me - that’s all standard on the top trim. It does have a Bose stereo dab etc but can’t comment as I’m a few weeks from delivery. It is the 2.5 which is new to uk but the US had it for a couple of years.

This is the spec and colour I’ve ordered

 

[Vlady]

6 hours ago, Jamesf1 said:

New order by me - that’s all standard on the top trim. It does have a Bose stereo dab etc but can’t comment as I’m a few weeks from delivery. It is the 2.5 which is new to uk but the US had it for a couple of years.

This is the spec and colour I’ve ordered

 

Very very nice James! 

[Normski]

Stunning car @Jamesf1 !

[First_Lexus]

Very nice indeed. I've only ever heard good things about the latest Mazda models and have been impressed when I've looked. Not to mention they seem to be chasing market share so 15% discount seems to be the starting point for negotiation on new cars so they represent very good value, especially given the equipment levels. 

Reading back through this thread, it occurs to me that - as with most things - it's all about opinions, needs vs wants and personal preference, often based on your own values and beliefs. My 'values' are around quality and comfort when it comes to cars, rather than practicality or 'the drive.'

Cars aren't so different to houses in that regard. After all, I could buy a 2 bedroom house in London if I wanted to live in the city, but my preference was to live in a bigger house in the country. That's my preference but I have plenty of friends who still feel they 'need' the buzz of living in London. As with @Linas.Pand the power discussion even though I don't - and don't know anybody - in my social circle who drives fast or who would feel they need a car with more power than a 300h (or a Fiesta Ecoboost for that matter!) I guess that doesn't mean that there isn't a small demand for those more powerful products. I don't understand it and never will, but like living in London, I don't really need to understand it to understand that it is there. 

Presumably Lexus have made a decision that they won't chase that market in the U.K., which leaves those who want such products to go elsewhere. Time will tell if that's the right decision for the brand.

[Linas.P]

@First_Lexus you will be surprised, but at least using Autotrader data nearly 20% of people chooses to drive something faster then GS300h/250 or for that matter IS250, 3% actually chooses cars under 5s 0-60. Based on that 1 in every 5 car owners in UK would be of opinion that GS300h is slow. That is 20 times more then you stated (even thought I understand you didn't actually mean 99% and it was more of expression rather then statistical claim). I agree that is not majority, but again here we talking only about UK with retarded speed limits and terrible anti-motorists culture, still 20% is not exactly small percentage or 1 in 5 something we can consider rare.

If I go further, that is based on all cars on sale made from 1900 (443000 cars), if we refocus statistics on something more relevant - say premium saloons cars of last decade, that percentage will change significantly - we have total 6640 cars listed in this category, 5208 of which are faster then any car fitted with 300h, over 1400 are faster then 5s 0-60. That means in premium saloon category 79% of car owners would consider car under 8s 0-60 as slow. 4 out of every 5! - and that is not my values or opinion - it is cold hard statistics.

Now I appreciate you understand that there are different people with different choices, but I don't think comparison with houses captures the point of discussion. If we compare like that, then you can get very nice flat in London in new modern development and run down terrible hole in ex-council housing, or equally you can get mansion in scenic country side or rotten cottage in ex-mining town. What I am saying house in country side even if you choose to live there (certainly I would) is not necessary equal to another house in country side. Equally premium saloon is not necessary equal another premium saloon - one can be brilliant and another can be complete rubbish. 

[dutchie01]

45 minutes ago, Linas.P said:

@First_Lexus you will be surprised, but at least using Autotrader data nearly 20% of people chooses to drive something faster then GS300h/250 or for that matter IS250, 3% actually chooses cars under 5s 0-60. Based on that 1 in every 5 car owners in UK would be of opinion that GS300h is slow. That is 20 times more then you stated (even thought I understand you didn't actually mean 99% and it was more of expression rather then statistical claim). I agree that is not majority, but again here we talking only about UK with retarded speed limits and terrible anti-motorists culture, still 20% is not exactly small percentage or 1 in 5 something we can consider rare.

If I go further, that is based on all cars on sale made from 1900 (443000 cars), if we refocus statistics on something more relevant - say premium saloons cars of last decade, that percentage will change significantly - we have total 6640 cars listed in this category, 5208 of which are faster then any car fitted with 300h, over 1400 are faster then 5s 0-60. That means in premium saloon category 79% of car owners would consider car under 8s 0-60 as slow. 4 out of every 5! - and that is not my values or opinion - it is cold hard statistics.

Now I appreciate you understand that there are different people with different choices, but I don't think comparison with houses captures the point of discussion. If we compare like that, then you can get very nice flat in London in new modern development and run down terrible hole in ex-council housing, or equally you can get mansion in scenic country side or rotten cottage in ex-mining town. What I am saying house in country side even if you choose to live there (certainly I would) is not necessary equal to another house in country side. Equally premium saloon is not necessary equal another premium saloon - one can be brilliant and another can be complete rubbish. 

Interesting read i really wonder how the statistics will look if we include South America ( except Argentina) and southern part of China. Please note only salooncars over 1800 kg and male drivers over 90 kg can be included( provided they have their licence for   29 years or more.

Can you please recalculate?

[First_Lexus]

1 hour ago, Linas.P said:

@First_Lexus you will be surprised, but at least using Autotrader data nearly 20% of people chooses to drive something faster then GS300h/250 or for that matter IS250, 3% actually chooses cars under 5s 0-60. Based on that 1 in every 5 car owners in UK would be of opinion that GS300h is slow. That is 20 times more then you stated (even thought I understand you didn't actually mean 99% and it was more of expression rather then statistical claim). I agree that is not majority, but again here we talking only about UK with retarded speed limits and terrible anti-motorists culture, still 20% is not exactly small percentage or 1 in 5 something we can consider rare.

If I go further, that is based on all cars on sale made from 1900 (443000 cars), if we refocus statistics on something more relevant - say premium saloons cars of last decade, that percentage will change significantly - we have total 6640 cars listed in this category, 5208 of which are faster then any car fitted with 300h, over 1400 are faster then 5s 0-60. That means in premium saloon category 79% of car owners would consider car under 8s 0-60 as slow. 4 out of every 5! - and that is not my values or opinion - it is cold hard statistics.

Now I appreciate you understand that there are different people with different choices, but I don't think comparison with houses captures the point of discussion. If we compare like that, then you can get very nice flat in London in new modern development and run down terrible hole in ex-council housing, or equally you can get mansion in scenic country side or rotten cottage in ex-mining town. What I am saying house in country side even if you choose to live there (certainly I would) is not necessary equal to another house in country side. Equally premium saloon is not necessary equal another premium saloon - one can be brilliant and another can be complete rubbish. 

Indeed I made some assumptions with my housing comparison. I was considering a modest budget of £900k - £1.2m, so in my mind between £45-60k for a new car. Even so, with such a budget in London you could buy a small flat somewhere desirable such as Marylebone or Maida Vale or a much larger property in a less desirable location like Walthamstow or Tooting. 

Even in a desirable location, one house or flat can be excellent for one buyer based purely on location and terrible for another based on square footage, finish, features or precise postcode or road. That's why one car buyer is happy with a Fiesta while another feels they need an Aston Martin - even if their journey and practical requirements are similar. You could have the same debate about schools - reputation, family connection and cost - or Universities, or more prosaic things like kitchens! It's all about choice, values, beliefs and budget.

I won't try to use 'statistics' - I believe in so much more than a debate based on those as Diogenes did. 

[Linas.P]

@dutchie01 I see what you trying to say - statistics is such thing, you can manipulate any way you like, but you need to understand that it is just a tool - how you use it is different thing. In the way to tell good statistics from bad statistics you need to "ignore the numbers". First of all you need to consider what you trying to figure out from it e.g. do I want to find out what is average acceleration of all cars? no not really, because that would include old, compact, SUVs etc. That comparison would make no-sense trying to understand if modern premium saloon is fast or slow. Checking acceleration of specifically premium saloon from last decade is much more indicative of the trend in such case.

I understand that you example is just trolling, but if you have some reasonable objections to criteria I chosen... I am happy to review the number and recalculate the percentage. For example in European countries with better road infrastructure and more positive car culture or cheaper fuel, the speeds will be higher... in poorer countries with more old car the speeds will be lower etc. etc.

@First_Lexus but even then you can have 2 houses on the same street, both listed for £900k, but one realistically only worth £650k and another maybe a £1m. Buying the first one would be bad value for money and the second one a bargain.

 

[First_Lexus]

Something - whether a house, a car, a school, a horse, a kitchen or a sofa - is worth what somebody is willing to pay for it. 

I'm unsure how we got here on a thread lamenting the demise of the GS, but I'm now re-considering classical philosophy that I haven't really thought about since my school days and long evenings doing prep with a house Master who thought the study of it provided the ultimate answer to everything...fascinating.

[Linas.P]

What somebody is willing to pay for something is not indicator of quality or value. Leonardo da Vinci notebook with few illustrations sold for $30.8mln - you not suggesting it is that valuable... in other hand not bad price comparing with this piece of sh****... sorry I mean "modern art" which sold for $140mln:

My point - if we are trying to keep discussion somewhat relevant - we should avoid criteria like "what somebody is willing to pay".

[First_Lexus]

Probably time to draw a line as we've drifted WAY off topic. And I rather like 'modern' art as it goes (if we're going to use a simplistic populist term). If somebody is willing to value something and pay a price for it, then that is their choice. I'm sure you wouldn't want to fall into the trap of presenting an opinion as a fact with associated implications, so I'll leave others to get the thread back on track if they wish. I'm still sad that the GS will be discontinued...

[Linas.P]

It is not that much off topic (the examples are), the point we discussed was quite simple - Is ES300h fast or slow, is it fast "enough" for modern premium saloon or not. It seems taking away how much people are "willing" to pay for something it is statistically slow car and in it's segment represents minority's choice.

[Northern_Si]

1 minute ago, Linas.P said:

It is not that much off topic (the examples are), the point we discussed was quite simple - Is ES300h fast or slow, is it fast "enough" for modern premium saloon or not. It seems taking away how much people are "willing" to pay for something it is statistically slow car and in it's segment represents minority's choice.

When you consider the new Volvo S60 coming out next year and the performance of the petrol engines... the ES is too slow

[First_Lexus]

11 minutes ago, Northern_Si said:

When you consider the new Volvo S60 coming out next year and the performance of the petrol engines... the ES is too slow

I'm still unconvinced. What does 'too slow' mean? We have speed limits, and having driven the 300h it is more powerful than many vehicles on sale, and more than capable of exceeding those limits, even if we ignore the fact that that the limits are a maximum and that fast acceleration within those limits can be inappropriate. 

As I've said before, I don't understand the need for speed and rushing around when driving. That is my values, upbringing and background kicking in. I understand that there are those from different backgrounds who feel differently. Personally I don't think that driving fast or aggressively proves much, certainly not in a positive sense. As long as the need for speed is safe, within the law and not adversely impacting on others, then I have few issues with it. But can a car with a 0-60 around 10 seconds be 'too slow'? Not in my opinion.

[Linas.P]

8 minutes ago, First_Lexus said:

But can a car with a 0-60 around 10 seconds be 'too slow'? Not in my opinion.

But that is clearly subjective... I am sure you agree with that. I understand that it is impossible to be always objective (if at all, because we all see facts in different light), but we should at least try for the sake of relevant discussion.

Why 10s... this is clearly arbitrary number, why not say 6.5s?! Back in 60's (probably more 40's) for average premium car it might have been fine to do 0-60 in 20's. But it is no longer 60's, it is not hard to find somewhat objective criteria to measure what is acceptable car acceleration nowadays (e.g. statistics I provided above).

Again speed limits are just arbitrary limits set by group of people, the national limit doesn't represent "safe speed"... as you mentioned yourself it is not even always safe to drive at the limit, sometimes you have to drive slower for safety.. equally sometimes it is completely safe to drive faster. If anything... speeds limits are just guidance and Highway code to your surprise is not "a law", it is rule book which applies for license holders. By speeding you not actually braking the law, you braking the conditions of the license... anyway I digress. 

It is misconception that acceleration within limits can be inappropriate. Yes - if you rev the engine, spin your tyres or try to race somebody in the street you are potentially braking the rules, but not the "acceleration rule" - there are no such rule of how fast or slow you can accelerate provided you don't brake other rules. You can accelerate Bugatti in 2.9s to 60MPH without braking any existing rule on public road, when we going to have car which accelerates in 1s - that will be perfectly legal too.

Again what does it mean "driving fast" or "driving aggressively", those are not definitions in rule book. "Fast" -  is it faster then speed limit (which is arbitrary), then yes you braking rules.... within limit? - perfectly fine. I don't even know what "driving aggressively" means ... Ok.. if you changing lanes without indicating, maybe tailgating, undertaking.. but that is not "driving aggressively" - that is braking list of other rules which exists on their own accord.

[st4]

When you consider the new Volvo S60 coming out next year and the performance of the petrol engines... the ES is too slow

 

Probably for a premium car the ES has the engine mounted wrongways, the wrong axel is powered and it’s too slow. However equipment levels will be generous so like for like it’ll undercut the German makes. The GS does too when you consider the standard specification. My SE 2013 GS has pretty much the same standard interior spec as a 7 series or S class of the same age. A standard 5 series SE, A6 SE is remarkably basic with manual 6 way seat adjustment being the norm.

 

Actually is an ES300h that off the pace, the Germans 9/10 times are sold with 4 clyinder diesels. Not one of them can top 150mph, most won’t top 140mph and none will crack 60 in under 7 sec. Is a 520d that much faster than an ES300h in reality for it to matter. Probably not.

 

The GS range was hindered by the lack of the 200t engine and 350 engine with the 8 speed box and I hate to say it a creditable diesel option if Toyota wanted to chase volume with serious gusto. The US range did better because the car got the gearbox and engine it deserved. I like my 250 but I’d have jumped at the chance at the 350 and 8sp

 

I still think though the ES drive train suits a mass market car like the Camry better mind you and yes it’ll be lighter on kit but it’ll be thousands cheaper. I’m very interested. I live 1mi from a Toyota dealer - the Lexus one is 30mi away. Ease of ownership is a big thing for me. It’s why I sold my Mercedes. It was unreliable and I spent too much time going back and forth to a garage that wasn’t where I lived.

 

 

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[Guest]

Toyota are releasing camry in UK with 2.5ltr hybrid

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[st4]

Toyota are releasing camry in UK with 2.5ltr hybrid

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I suspect a lot of Lexus owners will get one. It looks great for the money and a far savvier buy than an ES


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[Big Rat]

Saw loads of these Camry’s in Singapore recently with various engines we do not get on the obvious Lexus models.

Some of them looked great with the TRD kits on them as well.

🐀

[mpls]

4 minutes ago, st4 said:

I suspect a lot of Lexus owners will get one. It looks great for the money and a far savvier buy than an ES


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Some of the reasoning don't make sense..  How is Audi able to distinguish itself from its VW/Seat/Skoda sister plaform ?

Surely Lexus is able to distinguish the ES from the Toyota Avalon ( or Camry) despite sharing the same underpinnings ?

I cannot believe that Lexus can make such a fundamental mistake.

3 things Audi does to distinguish itself from its sisters cars,

1. style & quality of material 

2. perceived quality and image  ( marketing plays a huge part)

3. Perfomance ( on average better than its sister cars, tuned or bigger range if engines)

On a separate note, I think German premium makes (except maybe BMW) over the past 8-10 years have benefited from cheating diesels  as a whole.. in the light of recent heavier crackdown on cheating. in diesels. makers such as Lexus deserve a bigger market share ( more of the public may have not chosen German by default had all this kicked off sooner) and should be praised for having the forsight to give up on diesel 8 years ago.. The last labour goverment also had a part in jumpomg on the whoe CO2 band wagon by promotimg diesels.

Note also there was an independent report that noted all Euro6 diesels  go over the standard in real world usage.. some many times over..

The German biased press publications in UK has a lot to answer for IMO.

[Linas.P]

Yes, but Germans already found an answer to Diesel issue. They took all the best from hybrid and made it better in form of PHEV, sad story for Lexus - in 2005 they were too early with hybrids, when everyone (including government schemes) wanted diesels, now in 2018 they are too late with hybrids, when everyone (including government schemes) wants PHEVs.

It seems pretty obvious (at least for me), that you should make what government supports and subsidises, there was diesel era, now it is PHEV era.. Lexus has missed the point again. Now obviously PHEV's are nothing new.. strangely enough Toyota was one of first to make it, but for some reason German makes are the first ones to sell it in Premium segment. Why Toyota haven't pushed it through the Lexus is beyond me.

I can only speculate, that it is because PHEV thing is mostly European and thus European makers are mostly focused on in. Europe is not focus for Lexus, they are much more focused on US where neither hybrid, nor PHEV is that big of the thing... so even though they clearly understand EU and PHEV thing, they not really interested in fighting for it.

[spacenase]

Surely if everyone wants a PHEV, the 530e and E350e models would be the best selling models in their respective ranges? I haven't read that they are.

 

[First_Lexus]

2 hours ago, Linas.P said:

But that is clearly subjective... I am sure you agree with that. I understand that it is impossible to be always objective (if at all, because we all see facts in different light), but we should at least try for the sake of relevant discussion.

Why 10s... this is clearly arbitrary number, why not say 6.5s?! Back in 60's (probably more 40's) for average premium car it might have been fine to do 0-60 in 20's. But it is no longer 60's, it is not hard to find somewhat objective criteria to measure what is acceptable car acceleration nowadays (e.g. statistics I provided above).

Again speed limits are just arbitrary limits set by group of people, the national limit doesn't represent "safe speed"... as you mentioned yourself it is not even always safe to drive at the limit, sometimes you have to drive slower for safety.. equally sometimes it is completely safe to drive faster. If anything... speeds limits are just guidance and Highway code to your surprise is not "a law", it is rule book which applies for license holders. By speeding you not actually braking the law, you braking the conditions of the license... anyway I digress. 

It is misconception that acceleration within limits can be inappropriate. Yes - if you rev the engine, spin your tyres or try to race somebody in the street you are potentially braking the rules, but not the "acceleration rule" - there are no such rule of how fast or slow you can accelerate provided you don't brake other rules. You can accelerate Bugatti in 2.9s to 60MPH without braking any existing rule on public road, when we going to have car which accelerates in 1s - that will be perfectly legal too.

Again what does it mean "driving fast" or "driving aggressively", those are not definitions in rule book. "Fast" -  is it faster then speed limit (which is arbitrary), then yes you braking rules.... within limit? - perfectly fine. I don't even know what "driving aggressively" means ... Ok.. if you changing lanes without indicating, maybe tailgating, undertaking.. but that is not "driving aggressively" - that is braking list of other rules which exists on their own accord.

I chose 10s because in an earlier post you quoted the Lexus 0-60 as 8.9s. I was rounding up.

My point about acceleration was that you can be inappropriate within the law, but you have missed the point, and given your answer I consider trying to convince you otherwise to be like a broken pencil - pointless. I would simply ask you to consider what you've written, and hope that if you ever have a serious accident you a) don't try to rely on a defence as you have 'articulated' in court and b) don't hurt anybody else through inappropriate speed, which can include speed within legal limits.

 

 

[Ala Larj]

I don't understand why some people are so vociferous in their condemnation against the GS 300h or its probable successor, the ES. Subjectivity and objectivity keep being mentioned. Speed (or acceleration) also keeps being mentioned. None of this is actually relevant. Those that are happy with the GS or those that are happy to buy an ES should be happy to do that without criticism from those that have a different opinion. Those that aren't or wouldn't should just go and buy what they are happy with and stop thinking that they are right and those that disagree are wrong. That's what subjectivity is all about. If we all made objective decisions when buying a car we'd all be driving the same thing and that would probably be boring!