End of The GS in the UK

[spacenase]

I have a feeling they'll improve the trim quality a bit for the European market. They are pitching it as a direct replacement for the GS in Europe (barring the switch to FWD), which is higher up the model range than the ES in the states. I can't see them wanting to sell it cheaper than the GS was over here, so it's probably cheaper and easier for them to improve the trim quality especially as it will be built in a different factory (at least one of the reviews has said the European model will be built in Japan)..

 

[rayaans]

Quite an in depth look at the interior and quality of it.

He's very picky and from his previous reviews, he does like the German cars a lot but it seems like he liked the interior of the ES

[mpls]

I like how this guy reviews.. It;s american I know, and also the car is a V6 which I don't think we'll get in the UK ( due to dumb Co2/VED tax rules).. but nevertheless the ES looks better than i thought..

 

 

His review of the LC is pretty cool too.. do  search for that...

 

[rayaans]

19 minutes ago, mpls said:

I like how this guy reviews.. It;s american I know, and also the car is a V6 which I don't think we'll get in the UK ( due to dumb Co2/VED tax rules).. but nevertheless the ES looks better than i thought..

 

 

His review of the LC is pretty cool too.. do  search for that...

 

Yep. The Motoman one is good too,  extremely in depth and spans over 3 videos. The driving bit is good aswell. Says the handling is pretty neutral with barely any torque steer on the 350 unless flooring from a standstill.  I would imagine the ES 300H would be just fine.

[Northern_Si]

So this might be a daft question.  If the 3.5L V6 fits in the ES (for our cousins across the pond), I wonder if a ES450H is planned.  An ES450H with little torque steer might be in interesting replacement for my GS450H in a year or so.

[st4]

So this might be a daft question.  If the 3.5L V6 fits in the ES (for our cousins across the pond), I wonder if a ES450H is planned.  An ES450H with little torque steer might be in interesting replacement for my GS450H in a year or so.

It will. The batteries go under the floor. I’m not a fan of transversely mounting engines but for a hybrid it makes more sense as the batteries can go under the floor without a prop shaft or gearbox getting in the way.

I’m imagine hybridising a transverse engined car is easier than longitudinally engined one and I suspect as a hybrid the ES will work exceedingly well.

I still think there’s a “rightness” to a north south engine, manual or torque converter automatic gearbox sat behind it with rear drive.

The GS should imho be offered with v8 and v6 (or even the new straight 6 from the upcoming Supra) to satisfy “drivers” and more conservative buyers. Be nice if the LS was offered without hybrid. The GS is a superbly good handling car and there’s no way a FWD transversely mounted engined car will match it.


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[Linas.P]

56 minutes ago, st4 said:

I’m imagine hybridising a transverse engined car is easier than longitudinally engined one and I suspect as a hybrid the ES will work exceedingly well.

That is exactly what Volvo did in S90, it is 300hp+ FWD car with ~90hp and 200Nm electric engine strapped to the rear wheels, they claim it to be 4WD. Still waiting for call from Volvo for the test drive, but I fell it will be unimaginably unbalanced especially when accelerating in corners a lot of horse power in front and a lot of torque in rear working independently of each other. One positive thin thought Volvo is at least PHEV.

As for ES450h - not gonna happen, that is not how Lexus logic works. mk2 and mk3 IS have IS350 variant which essentially have same engine as GS450h (2GR-FSE vs. 2GR-FXE), same goes for RC which shares front chassis with GS, neither have 450h option. Which is sad, yet is the way it is - I don't see Lexus changing on that. Not to mention all 3 cars above (IS mk2 and 3, and RC) already have everything the same, mounting point, engine etc. and only needs Battery fitted, whereas ES is FWD and would require complete redevelopment. 

[rayaans]

6 hours ago, Northern_Si said:

So this might be a daft question.  If the 3.5L V6 fits in the ES (for our cousins across the pond), I wonder if a ES450H is planned.  An ES450H with little torque steer might be in interesting replacement for my GS450H in a year or so.

Unlikely. Sales would be dismal, both in the states and in Europe for that model.

I think an AWD is on the cards, and an ES-F with AWD would be quite interesting. There's no other reason for that hump in the rear floor

[Vlady]

Why will they remove the GS, I still don't get it, the reason I moved to Lexus is that it has powerful rear drive saloon (GS), I had to betray my favourite car manufacture to do that (😊) and now they decided to erase the GS model from line-up?! Grrr! 

[spacenase]

With the diesel scandal spreading through the German manufacturers, the ES is looking more and more attractive! 😄

 

[Linas.P]

6 minutes ago, spacenase said:

With the diesel scandal spreading through the German manufacturers, the ES is looking more and more attractive! 😄

FWD car in this segment never going to be attractive and German have long fixed diesel issue, BMW 530e and MB350e are PHEVs and miles ahead of hybrid tech. + compliant to UK tax whereas Lexus hybrids are not.

@rayaans - why would Lexus suddenly introduce AWD in UK? As for new ES being AWD I agree, it will 100% have ES350 AWD in US, but I see no reason why they would introduce one in UK, they didn't have GS/IS/RC AWDs in UK in the past (whilst having them in the states), so I would be puzzled what would make them to change this.  

[spacenase]

12 minutes ago, Linas.P said:

FWD car in this segment never going to be attractive and German have long fixed diesel issue, BMW 530e and MB350e are PHEVs and miles ahead of hybrid tech. + compliant to UK tax whereas Lexus hybrids are not.

@rayaans - why would Lexus suddenly introduce AWD in UK? As for new ES being AWD I agree, it will 100% have ES350 AWD in US, but I see no reason why they would introduce one in UK, they didn't have GS/IS/RC AWDs in UK in the past (whilst having them in the states), so I would be puzzled what would make them to change this.  

No they haven't, it's in the news today that Mercedes are being forced to recall hundreds of thousands of cars due to emission test irregularities, hence my comment.

Also, FWD is not as big an issue to everyone as it is to you.

 

[Linas.P]

It is big issue in the niche market of large luxury saloons, dominated by.. well big luxury RWD saloons. Is little bit silly to think that you can take on BMW 5-series with FWD mid-size car.

What I meant by saying "fixed" - Germans have introduced options for you to choose if you don't want diesel and their options are better then Lexus hybrid, I am not talking about legacy issues with "dieselgate" - that will haunt industry for a while.

The choice you talking about is - "I currently have BMW530d, but I know diesel is bad.. I need to find another option for my next car", based on this you can choose Lexus 300h, which does not qualify for tax initiatives is slow and in case of ES as well FWD, or you can get BMW 530e, which is PHEV, fast and gets government grants and tax initiatives. So.. why would you choose slower car, with lower MPG which will cost you more?

[spacenase]

The A6 does pretty well against the 5 series, then there's the Volvo S90, both are FWD. I agree that BMW and Merc dominate in terms of sales, but I think that has more to do with the badge and perceived quality reputation than which wheels are driven. If Lexus were first to introduce FWD to the sector I'd be tempted to agree with you but they are not, so it could be seen as more of a shift from RWD to FWD in the sector than anything else. I'd be willing to bet that if BMW and Merc are able to maintain their perceived reputation, switching their cars from RWD to FWD wouldn't lose them too many customers.

In response to your last question, here are four considerations for me: looks, reliability, comfort and equipment levels and (again for me) I think the ES will win on all four. Also, I don't find my GS300h to be slow, it's always been fast enough for me in any situation I've been in, so if the ES300h matches it I'd be happy.

I don't want to restart the FWD vs RWD argument again, so let's just accept that we have different priorities in our choice of car and agree to disagree.

 

[dutchie01]

the GS was rwd and a salesflop

[noby76]

2 hours ago, spacenase said:

Also, FWD is not as big an issue to everyone as it is to you.

I know right?  some are making it as if the car in question 'ES'  is a Sports car or high BHP performance car..both of which its not and that's not what Lexus is intending it to be or marketing it as but they are still stuck on the notion of "why is it not RWD".  

RWD layout is not the be all,  end all when it comes to driving dynamics, handling characteristics and driver enjoyment of a car..  

[Linas.P]

1 hour ago, spacenase said:

 I don't find my GS300h to be slow, it's always been fast enough for me

In context it is slow because BMW 530e does 0-60 in 6.1s, GS300h does it in 8.9s... that is objective, what is fast enough for you is subjective and I am sorry, but nobody cares about that.

GS was sales flop.. full stop. It has nothing to do with the driving wheels and same will go for ES. Lexus position themselves as a niche player... with lack of engine options, with disregard for tax advantages, with lack of interior options and generally with lack of recognition... and they will always be niche player until they going to take market seriously and commit to it.

+ Volvo is technically AWD (or at least they pretend to be) and Audi has AWD option would be pretty standard on all better equipped cars. Upcoming Audi hybrids will use same set-up (if I understood right) FWD petrol + electric motor at the rear, again technically making AWD. As mentioned above, it is not even about driving wheels, but Audi accepts that they are at best challengers for BMW 5 series with their A6, so for Lexus ES it is just naive to even consider themselves in the same league. 

[rayaans]

32 minutes ago, Linas.P said:

In context it is slow because BMW 530e does 0-60 in 6.1s, GS300h does it in 8.9s... that is objective, what is fast enough for you is subjective and I am sorry, but nobody cares about that.

GS was sales flop.. full stop. It has nothing to do with the driving wheels and same will go for ES. Lexus position themselves as a niche player... with lack of engine options, with disregard for tax advantages, with lack of interior options and generally with lack of recognition... and they will always be niche player until they going to take market seriously and commit to it.

+ Volvo is technically AWD (or at least they pretend to be) and Audi has AWD option would be pretty standard on all better equipped cars. Upcoming Audi hybrids will use same set-up (if I understood right) FWD petrol + electric motor at the rear, again technically making AWD. As mentioned above, it is not even about driving wheels, but Audi accepts that they are at best challengers for BMW 5 series with their A6, so for Lexus ES it is just naive to even consider themselves in the same league. 

Linas, once again you're being stupid.

Whether a car does 0-60 in 6.1s or 8.9s, it doesn't really matter. Most buyers, especially in the luxo-barge segment really couldn't care less - hence why they're full of 520d's. You keep banging on about tax incentives and what not - thats true to an extent, but again you don't seem to understand that some companies limit the value of the cars as well and only give limited options. A 530e costs nearly £50k!

Most things about cars are subjective. The main reason for the huge sales of BMW and Merc are 70% down to perceived brand image. The performance is subjective. Most buyers are happy with 0-60 in 9s. Look at the A180d - uses a renault engine and managed to take a huge chunk of A-class sales simply down to the perceived brand image. It certainly didn't have the quality or performance to match even a basic Golf. After all, it did 60mph in 10+ seconds.

On top of that, Ive not actually seen Lexus say "we're aiming for the 5er or E-class". In the states, its going to be priced at C-class and 3 series level. From what I can tell, Lexus knows they don't need a big RWD saloon in the UK as the SUVs are going to take over anyway. I wouldn't be surprised if they remove the RC later as well.

[Jamesf1]

Well said.

[spacenase]

8 minutes ago, Linas.P said:

In context it is slow because BMW 530e does 0-60 in 6.1s, GS300h does it in 8.9s... that is objective, what is fast enough for you is subjective and I am sorry, but nobody cares about that.

I'm flattered that you care enough to reply! 😀

[dutchie01]

2 minutes ago, spacenase said:

I'm flattered that you care enough to reply! 😀

Its just feeding the trolls..

[Linas.P]

5 hours ago, rayaans said:

once again I am being stupid.

Thanks for admitting... Completely agree 👍

I don't care about it either, but because opinions are subjective we have to judge on the objective facts. BMW is fast for what it is (PHEV compliance vehicle) and Lexus is slow in it's 300h variant... just the way it is.Whenever you agree or not with the facts doesn't really matter, facts are not something we need to agree on - they just exist.

[rayaans]

2 hours ago, Linas.P said:

Thanks for admitting... Completely agree 👍

I don't care about it either, but because opinions are subjective we have to judge on the objective facts. BMW is fast for what it is (PHEV compliance vehicle) and Lexus is slow in it's 300h variant... just the way it is.Whenever you agree or not with the facts doesn't really matter, facts are not something we need to agree on - they just exist.

Now you're just being the big child that you are. Do you want a dummy to suck on whilst you're grieving for the GS? Not that you'd buy one anyway because you seem to have an obsession with the IS250...

If you want to judge on objective facts, go and speak to Autoexpress or autocar. I'm sure they'd love to have you as a reviewer.

The reason most of us are on this forum and driving a Lexus is purely subjective. I didn't choose a 3 series over the IS because it's 1s faster to 60mph. Others on the forum didn't choose an M3 because it's faster than an RCF.

Facts exist but nobody really cares. People who buy cars based on facts generally don't know anything about cars and simply use it as a mode of transport. It's all about the subjective feeling and if you don't think that applies please feel free to go over to the BMW forum and leave us misely lexus owners in peace 

[Ala Larj]

2 hours ago, Linas.P said:

e 👍, but because opinions are subjective we have to judge on the objective facts.

Why? I've never bought a car objectively. I've bought cars because they feel right for me or make me smile. Hence I'm now a GS owner. I don't care if it's not as fast as something else or doesn't go round corners faster than something else. I enjoy being in it and driving it. Yes, a 450 may be be quicker but so what? I'd probably only use that power 1% of the time and certainly don't miss it. The 300 satisfies my needs perfectly.

[Jamesf1]

Why all the stress on this thread. None of you have seen one or sat in one or driven one . Some clearly aren’t going to buy one so wtf? If you don’t like it don’t buy one. If you don’t agree with Toyota/Lexus corporate strategy buy into another brand.