End of The GS in the UK

[ColinBarber]

15 hours ago, mpls said:

 

The GS/IS  ( same)  chassis

They aren't the same. 

[mpls]

1 hour ago, ColinBarber said:

They aren't the same. 

 

New N

Applications

• Lexus GS — L10 (2012–present)^[1]
• Lexus IS — XE30 (2013–present)
• Lexus RC — XC10 (2014–present)

On 16/04/2018 at 5:41 PM, colin79666 said:

Good to hear Lexus understand the UX isn’t going to be a CT replacement for a good percentage of buyers. The CT has always been crying out for a more powerful drive train so the new 2.0 litre hybrid setup would be a perfect match. 

 

1 hour ago, ColinBarber said:

They aren't the same. 

 

New N

Applications

• Lexus GS — L10 (2012–present)^[1]
• Lexus IS — XE30 (2013–present)
• Lexus RC — XC10 (2014–present)

[ColinBarber]

It isn't like the newer modular platforms. N platform based vehicles have the same basic design but are different in size and strengthening for example.

We know the RC F uses a GS front end, IS-C middle, and IS (series III) rear end. They are all based on the N platform but uses three different designed sections.

[noby76]

20 hours ago, Linas.P said:

That was my point from outset - you cannot rival RWD car which is "renowned for handling and performance" with FWD newcomer.  Lexus struggles to challenge BMW handling with RWD, FWD has no chances... Fair enough Lexus easily rivals BMW in other things like refinement, equipment, build quality .. but not performance and handling. It is not possible win against BMW there, playing their game on their home field by their own rules.

I think you must be very mistaken if you think modern day performance FWD cars drive like FWD cars of old.. my FWD Accord handles similar to the  RWD IS300-GS430 i owned before infact it has the tendency to oversteer " loose backend" if not too careful. there are lots of modern stock FWD cars which  can lap various circuts faster than their equivalent AWD and RWD counterparts from Audi BMW and Merc. 

when push comes to shove most people "Average Joe" will end up in a ditch in a RWD car as compared to FWD when both cars are pushed to the optimum limit. Technology has closed the gap between RWD vs FWD performance cars in terms of handling that most cannot tell the difference. and FWD will gain the upper hand once conditions gets wet, damp, icy, snow..

[TonyPoll]

The reviews of the FWD Lotus Elan of the early 1990's (M100 model) showed that a FWD car is not a barrier to performance driving.

[Jamesf1]

RWD has 2 advantages in road driving:

Straight line traction and turning lock on the front wheels.

In general driving there is nothing in it. In fact the Mondeo mk4 I had was a better drivers car than either my IS or GS, with better weighted steering, more responsive\fluid to thread down a country road.

But - as you get to the limit, i.e. on a race track, RWD is a better balanced experience, and dynamically better to split the task of power delivery and direction change across both ends rather than load onto 1.

Where I agree with Linus is that RWD is a purer, better(dynamically) way of moving a car, and in the right circumstances FWD simply cannot generate the same pleasure in the raw driving experience. Whilst my GS250 on the road doesnt especially gain from RWD other than the points I made about lock\traction, at the end of the day I just like the its RWD.

Where I dont agree is that I believe it doesnt makes  any difference, in everyday sensible driving, to most people, to be an issue in commercial\marketing terms for most cars. 

In terms of the ES its in a crossover point in the market. So i dont think the gs300h, specially benefits from RWD for it customer base, but the GSF  couldnt have been anything other than RWD. Without at least AWD theer cannot be a viable ESF.

Pushed on a race track a 5 series will be a better drive than the ES, a lot due to RWD vs FWD. However, in the real world, dynamically there is no reason why it cant be close the the 5, and be better than A6\E class even though its FWD.

 

[ColinBarber]

2 minutes ago, Jamesf1 said:

but the GSF  couldnt have been anything other than RWD. 

It could do with AWD. It breaks traction all the time 

Biggest issue for me is torque steer with FWD vehicles. The RX400h suffers from this quite a bit. Will be interesting to see how the ES copes in this regard.

[Guest]

2 minutes ago, ColinBarber said:

It could do with AWD. It breaks traction all the time 

Biggest issue for me is torque steer with FWD vehicles. The RX400h suffers from this quite a bit. Will be interesting to see how the ES copes in this regard.

Civic Type R has some features to combat torque steer. I'd like to try one for fun, it's 'ring times are impressive.

[Jamesf1]

10 minutes ago, ColinBarber said:

It could do with AWD. It breaks traction all the time 

Biggest issue for me is torque steer with FWD vehicles. The RX400h suffers from this quite a bit. Will be interesting to see how the ES copes in this regard.

yes, I meant couldnt of been FWD

and if it breaks traction all the time, some of this is down to the driver, the throttle works both ways..I dont remember reading any GSF reviews where traction was an issue, in fact I was left with the impression its pretty planted..(with the caveat ive never driven one)

[Jamesf1]

10 minutes ago, Comedian said:

Civic Type R has some features to combat torque steer. I'd like to try one for fun, it's 'ring times are impressive.

+1

my mate has driven one, he was impressed.

[noby76]

15 minutes ago, Jamesf1 said:

But - as you get to the limit, i.e. on a race track, RWD is a better balanced experience, and dynamically better to split the task of power delivery and direction change across both ends rather than load onto 1.

Where I agree with Linus is that RWD is a purer, better(dynamically) way of moving a car, and in the right circumstances FWD simply cannot generate the same pleasure in the raw driving experience. Whilst my GS250 on the road doesnt especially gain from RWD other than the points I made about lock\traction, at the end of the day I just like the its RWD.

 

 not sure what you meant by pure better (dynamically) way of moving a car..  a RWD will not hold an advantage when starting of the line, rolling start, entering a corner, carrying speed round a corner or exiting out of a corner when compered to a similar well tuned FWD car of its calibre. dont get me wrong RWD still has its place in motoring but technology has closed this gap it had some years ago which makes them just as fun and pure to drive. 

[Guest]

7 minutes ago, noby76 said:

 not sure what you meant by pure better (dynamically) way of moving a car..  a RWD will not hold an advantage when starting of the line, rolling start, entering a corner, carrying speed round a corner or exiting out of a corner when compered to a similar well tuned FWD car of its calibre. 

It simply does. As you accelerate weight is transferred to the rear of the car, the balance changes and in RWD case the weight is transferred over the driving wheels. On a front wheel drive car weight and therefore grip is transferred away from the driving wheels. Capabilities in the middle of a corner depend on much more. But acceleration is the most obvious example.

[noby76]

13 minutes ago, Comedian said:

 

 

[noby76]

14 minutes ago, Comedian said:

It simply does. As you accelerate weight is transferred to the rear of the car, the balance changes and in RWD case the weight is transferred over the driving wheels. On a front wheel drive car weight and therefore grip is transferred away from the driving wheels. Capabilities in the middle of a corner depend on much more. But acceleration is the most obvious example.

just for entertanment

 

[Jamesf1]

"a RWD will not hold an advantage when starting of the line"

In the British Touring car championship, with is a mix of RWD and FWD, RWD cars have to have a different first gear to reduce their advantage on a standing start.

[Jamesf1]

I cant wait for Linus to to see this ha ha

[rayaans]

All that aside

Looks brilliant - hate the colour though, its flipping sonic titanium aka dirty beige 

Much better in white I think - but then Im biased

 

The interior quality looks to be on par with the current GS if not better. The door panels especially look fantastic and looking at the grain pattern, appear to be half leather (or faux leather)

[noby76]

i like the two tone colour wing mirrors... a very masculine car indeed. very nice makes the latest GS look very dated

[mpls]

4 hours ago, Comedian said:

Civic Type R has some features to combat torque steer. I'd like to try one for fun, it's 'ring times are impressive.

 

 

Seen some reviews of the new Civic Type R, torque steer was minoimal or non existent.. so its possibe to counter issues with troque steer..

[Linas.P]

@noby76 You saying it like I haven't driven "modern" FWD - my last FWD car was 2012 Passat CC R-line, with GTI 2.0t engine and 6 speed DSG. Hated it with passion - torque steer, understeer, snap oversteer, balance all over the place in any corner.. shi* in short.

5 hours ago, noby76 said:

FWD cars which  can lap various circuts faster erc. 

most people "Average Joe" will end up in a ditch in a RWD car 

That is both true and irrelevant - I don't care how luxury car performs on the track and it might be true that FWD can do the lap quicker. Secondly, It is as well true that average Joe is better in FWD, but I am not looking from average Joe perspective - I don't care about average Joe perspective.

I am simply talking what would be ideal configuration int perfect world. I am not even saying that FWD is worse and RWD is better, but it would be wrong to deny fundamental difference how these cars handles and feels. From that perspective some qualities which are natural for RWD car are more suitable in Luxury car and therefore I will always choose RWD.

 

[noby76]

18 minutes ago, Linas.P said:

You saying it like I haven't driven "modern" FWD - my last FWD car was 2012 Passat CC R-line, with GTI 2.0t engine and 6 speed DSG. Hated it with passion, torque steer, understeer, snap oversteer.. **** in short.

I am sorry but this makes you an "Average Joe" if you cannot handle torque steer, understeer, snap oversteer. you certainly would not be able to handle a 200-300bhp BMW with all driving aids turned off on the limit driving. trust me,

 

18 minutes ago, Linas.P said:

and it might be true that FWD can do the lap quicker. 

Which means your quote about RWD BMW not being rivalled for   "renowned  handling and performance" is flawed..

18 minutes ago, Linas.P said:

 From that perspective some qualities which are natural for RWD car are more suitable in Luxury car and therefore I will always choose RWD.

 

which RWD qualities are you talking? if its squatting under acceleration, my Accord does that so did my ford cougar V6. not sure what you mean by RWD qualities. 

[Linas.P]

18 minutes ago, noby76 said:

if you cannot handle torque steer, understeer, snap oversteer

not sure what you mean by RWD qualities. 

Where did I say that I could not handle it? I simply didn't like car which is not balanced/balanced incorrectly under acceleration and in corners.

I think if you don't know what RWD qualities are, then we should stop discussing it right here (car guy vs. non-car guy discussion) - going forward would simply be waste of mine and yours time.

[noby76]

3 minutes ago, Linas.P said:

Where did I say that I could not handle it? I simply didn't like car which is not balanced/balanced incorrectly under acceleration and in corners.

The weight distribution of your IS250 is 52% front and 48% rear your passat CC has 57% front and 43% rear... so to put this into perspective, the Passat is heaver 0.5% at the front and losses the same at the rear. lets be honest you will not feel this during day to day driving, under acceleration nor cornering. these are not F1 cars we talking about here lets not pretend the difference is day and night.. 

 

25 minutes ago, Linas.P said:

I think if you don't know what RWD qualities are, then we should stop discussing it right here (car guy vs. non-car guy discussion) - going forward would simply be waste of mine and yours time.

No I dont know please educate me.. i think others on here would like you to go into details for us.. 

[dutchie01]

interesting debate about RWD or FWD. I have to say that i am not in a position to judge as i honestly have not driven a FWD car since 9 years and the world has moved on.. Before driving aids were invented you really could find bad FWD cars and bad RWD ones. The electronic referees nowadays save your butt every time. The worst FWDs i had were an Alfa 164 6 cyl. 224hp fwd no slip diff. Suicidal car driving in straight line floor the throttle then instant skating left or right. Also SAAB 93 hirsch tuned, just too much power for the terrible chassis.Thing is.. both were fun cars to drive, lets call hem challenging . RWD alfa 75 on the autobahn doing 140kph losing it in a long winding corner in the rain or likewise an Opel ( Vauxhall omega) more luck than knowledge there...  I found my IS250 a great car but inspite of RWD it was not a great handler, the Peugeot 405 i had long ago was just better in my memory. From a manufacturers point of view a FWD is a better package. More room inside, cheaper to build and it makes sense.  

I am in doubt, do i prefer F or Rwd? i think i need to take a new A6 for a spin to find out, they are selling by the truckloads so they must be good? 

[Jamesf1]

As it’s a run out model it’s selling by the truckload due to finance deals. On a pcp you get 10k off without trying and very low APR. Very cheap business lease rates too I understand.