End of The GS in the UK

rayaans · April 24, 2018

8 hours ago, Jamesf1 said:

Spoiler alert?

Details released yesterday on the new Toyota Avalon on which ES is based:

http://pressroom.toyota.com/releases/all+new+2019+toyota+avalon+beams+effortless+sophistication+style+exhilaration.htm

pics:

http://pressroom.toyota.com/album_display.cfm?album_id=1303&section_id=361

Details on hybrid system:

A new TNGA 2.5-liter four-cylinder Dynamic Force Engine is more fuel efficient, runs cleaner, and is more powerful than previous iterations, and excels at dissipating thermal inefficiencies. Doing it all took the implementation of Toyota’s vast catalog of advanced engine technologies: Dual VVT-i with VVT-iE (Variable Valve Timing intelligent system by Electric motor); D-4S (Direct injection 4-stroke gasoline engine Superior version) direct injection and laser-clad valve seats; longer stroke (4.07 inches; bore remains at 3.44 inches) and high compression ratio (14:1); multi-hole direct fuel injectors; a variable cooling system; cooled Exhaust Gas Recirculation (EGR) system; and a full variable oil pump.

Instead of oil pressure, its Dual VVT-i with VVT-iE variable valve system employs an electric motor to control variable valve timing, which aids fuel efficiency and promotes cleaner exhaust emissions (this is especially helpful in cold climates). The D-4S direct injection combines higher-pressure direct fuel injection (DI) and lower-pressure port fuel injection (PFI), and applies each method of injection based on specific driving parameters. Furthering fuel efficiency are new multi-hole nozzle direct injectors (six holes per injector).

The four-cylinder Dynamic Force Engine is married to an all-new Toyota Hybrid System II powertrain that’s been engineered to inspire both spirited driving and fuel consciousness. The hybrid system’s net power output is an impressive 215 horsepower – up 15 horsepower versus the outgoing version. THS II uses two electric motors – MG1 and MG2 – to supplement the charging of the hybrid system’s Nickel-Metal Hydride (Ni-MH) battery pack, while MG2 assists the engine.

New for 2019, the highly compact battery pack now resides under the rear passenger seat (instead of the trunk), as a result of improved TNGA packaging and for the betterment of a lower center of gravity. THS II’s new lighter, smaller Power Control Unit (PCU) packages microcontrollers within a power stack structure that’s located above the transaxle – all with the goal of lowering mass to better handling composure.

Efficiencies on many levels are seen with the implementation of the new PCU. Energy loss in the conversion efficiency of the transaxle and electric motor is reduced by approximately 20 percent, and its cooling system’s energy loss is cut by approximately 10 percent. The PCU’s DC-DC converter – which converts a direct current from one voltage level to another – is optimized to reduce overall power consumption. Dimensionally, DC-DC converter’s output filter is smaller, lighter, and quieter for an improved passenger experience.

Auto Glide Control (AGC), yet another of Avalon’s fuel-saving technologies, automatically calculates efficient coasting. When driving normally, engine braking will slow the vehicle down when the driver lifts off from the accelerator pedal. However, to avoid aggressive engine braking, AGC limits the loss of vehicle speed through an automatic drive setting that acts more like a neutral gear, allowing the vehicle to coast to the stoplight.

Its basically just an updated version of the 300h in the NX with a coast function to save fuel.

The real question is, where is the extra 15hp coming from, the engine, the motors or both combined? 15hp doesn't sound like much but I certainly notice 9hp combined in the RX as the actual engine feels stronger compared to the 3RX due to having a bit more power. I suspect they'll drop it into the NX in 2020 as well.

ColinBarber · April 24, 2018

31 minutes ago, rayaans said:

Its basically just an updated version of the 300h in the NX with a coast function to save fuel.

The real question is, where is the extra 15hp coming from, the engine, the motors or both combined? 15hp doesn't sound like much but I certainly notice 9hp combined in the RX as the actual engine feels stronger compared to the 3RX due to having a bit more power. I suspect they'll drop it into the NX in 2020 as well.

No it is a completely different series of engine. It is similar to the smaller one that will be fitted to the UX. These are more thermally efficient compared to the NX engine.

https://newsroom.toyota.co.jp/en/powertrain/engine/

Both the engine and motors are more powerful, each more than 15 hp, but total system output is limited. The drivetrain is more efficient too so you probably get more than 15 hp extra at the wheels. It should make a noticeable difference to the NX, just need a series II chassis to drop it into.

Chafford1 · April 25, 2018

10 hours ago, ColinBarber said:

We get to hear more about it tomorrow.

Not sure this picture/colour does it any favours:

https://www.lexus.eu/car-models/es/#hero

New 4 cylinder hybrid engine giving 215 hp, F Sport version available, 3.5 V6 available in some European countries but not in UK. On sale in Europe in September and in UK in January 2019.

http://media.lexus.co.uk/2018/04/new-lexus-es-higher-level-performance-sophistication/

ColinBarber · April 25, 2018

The F Sport doesn't look a million miles away from the GS

Hangie · April 25, 2018

They have just lost GS customer.

I don't like interior, especially as I guess semi-aniline leather will be dropped, seating vent is gone (at leats in F-Sport which is only model with sport+ and AVS).Plus this funny tablet out of blue in a middle of dashboard is horrible idea that a lor of cars got right now.

Not to mentioned 450h and GS/ES F is gone together with front-wheel drive only available. I'm curious how 350 for Russia will work with front-wheel drive :)

It looks like they want to create a way cheaper car with a way bigger margin for everyone and no-one - so called "People's car" ;)

Anyway for me only possibility to move forward within Lexus brand is new LS which is pricy - all depends how they will loose value in 3-4 years.

PS. For some reason plastic and buttons next to inside door handle looks really cheap. Maybe it is only photo or my prejudice :)

PS2. Internal photo is edited :) Check out that bits of vinyl on central console next to knees. On top you got stitches and then moving down they are disappearing. I wouldn't be surprised if that element is just plastic and stitches were added later on in photoshop :P

Jamesf1 · April 25, 2018

I like the exterior design a lot. Not as keen on the interior but a photo is different to sitting in it. I think it will grow on me. I do prefer an integrated screen, rather than the German esque we stuck a tablet on the dashboard look. The one bit Im struggling with is the angular instrument suround.

Lovely exterior shape

Overall I like it.

Chafford1 · April 25, 2018

I like the look of this and the interior looks impressive. A smaller version of the LS by the look of it. Pity about the lack of engine choice, but given Lexus is relatively speaking a niche product in Europe, not surprising.

Given that the ES has always been priced below the GS in the US, it will be interesting to see whether the same will apply in the UK.

Linas.P · April 25, 2018

I think they did great job converting it from rather ugly Avalon, Lexus ES definitely looks 1000 times better then upcoming loafy Avalon with mental headlights and "tiny" (in contrast with the body) wheels. I would have same reservations about angular design and tablet as @Jamesf1 ... overall looks good, but I am not convinced it was best option. One other point - it is interesting to see LF-A like controls, however either the steering wheels is set very low in picture or the instrument "dome" protrudes very high-up.

I guess if one doesn't care about driving dynamics ES is going to be good looking car.

rayaans · April 25, 2018

The Blue doesn't do the ES any favours to be honest. Seems to suit lighter colours. This was the interior photo I got sent originally on snapchat:

rayaans · April 25, 2018

1 minute ago, Linas.P said:

I think they did great job converting it from rather ugly Avalon, Lexus ES definitely looks 1000 times better then upcoming loafy Avalon with mental headlights and "tiny" (in contrast with the body) wheels. I would have same reservations about angular design and tablet as @Jamesf1 ... overall looks good, but I am not convinced it was best option. One other point - it is interesting to see LF-A like controls, however either the steering wheels is set very low in picture or the instrument "dome" protrudes very high-up.

I guess if one doesn't care about driving dynamics ES is going to be good looking car.

Steering wheel is low and the hip point for the seats have been lowered to make it "feel" sportier, as in sitting inside rather than on top

Linas.P · April 25, 2018

I think it looks much better in white, reminds me of AR Julia Quadrifogliofrom the rear (that is compliment)..

Jamesf1 · April 25, 2018

"either the steering wheels is set very low in picture or the instrument "dome" protrudes very high-up."

this mimics the LC, and in the pic above from behind the wheel looks good, but from an offset angle looks a bit odd

"I guess if one doesn't care about driving dynamics:"

from Autocar:

"The new car is tasked with drastically increasing sales in Europe, so it has been designed and engineered to appeal to drivers in this region.Part of the motivation for this decision will no doubt be the success of European rivals to the ES, such as the BMW 5 Series, which is renowned for its good handling and strong performance. Lexus has therefore engineered the new ES to be significantly more driver-focused than its predecessors.The new ES features multi-link rear suspension and has a V-brace behind the backseats to enhance handling and precision. ES Sport models add adaptive damping to this technical layout. It can be manually adjusted through a Drive Mode Select system."

So id say - yes its fwd vs rwd for the GS, but we need to reserve judgement on this.

Linas.P · April 25, 2018

https://www.lexus.co.uk/car-models/es/#key-features

Quote

The range will include the ES 300h, on sale from December 2018, powered by a new self-charging hybrid system, together with the ES 200, ES 250 and ES 350 petrol engine models that will go on sale from September 2018.

ES300h is self explanatory, but bunch of petrol engines surprised me - did Lexus UK just "copy-pasted" it from US site? If they planning to introduce ES350, then maybe it would open the way for other 350 models. Doubt about IS, because Lexus would tray to keep internal model competition minimal as always, but RC350 becomes more viable.

Edit: Actually that is explained below on same page:

Quote

The ES 300h – to be launched in Western and Central Europe – is equipped with a new, fourth generation self-charging hybrid drive system that can deliver exceptional fuel efficiency, responsive performance and minimal emissions for a mid-size luxury sedan. In Russia and other Eastern markets, ES will be available with a range of petrol powertrains - the ES 350 and ES 250. As well as the boost in power and torque, the ES 350 also gains a new eight-speed Direct Shift automatic transmission.

mpls · April 25, 2018

1 minute ago, Linas.P said:

https://www.lexus.co.uk/car-models/es/#key-features

ES300h is self explanatory, but bunch of petrol engines surprised me - did Lexus UK just "copy-pasted" it from US site? If they planning to introduce ES350, then maybe it would open the way for other 350 models. Doubt about IS, because Lexus would tray to keep internal model competition minimal as always, but RC350 becomes more viable.

How about AWD ?

Jamesf1 · April 25, 2018

Only hybrid for Western Europe from Lexus uk website. 350 and 250 for Eastern Europe, USA far east

Jamesf1 · April 25, 2018

1 minute ago, mpls said:

How about AWD ?

Doubt is for uk as hybrid only

Linas.P · April 25, 2018

37 minutes ago, mpls said:

How about AWD ?

Seems like ... nope. AWD would the last hope for me to like this car to be honest.

2 hours ago, Jamesf1 said:

from Autocar:

"The new car is tasked with drastically increasing sales in Europe, so it has been designed and engineered to appeal to drivers in this region.Part of the motivation for this decision will no doubt be the success of European rivals to the ES, such as the BMW 5 Series, which is renowned for its good handling and strong performance."

Autocar clearly missed-judged. The closest car in BMW arsenal would be BMW4 - Grand Coupe, 5-series is just entirely different caliber car. That was my point from outset - you cannot rival RWD car which is "renowned for handling and performance" with FWD newcomer. Lexus struggles to challenge BMW handling with RWD, FWD has no chances... Fair enough Lexus easily rivals BMW in other things like refinement, equipment, build quality .. but not performance and handling. It is not possible win against BMW there, playing their game on their home field by their own rules.

I am fine with Lexus providing alternative - do your stuff, be the best, but don't say you going to take on BMW 5 handling and performance - that is hopeless.

doog442 · April 25, 2018

Wow they've gone all IS200/300 retro with that instrument panel

Jamesf1 · April 25, 2018

it has been designed and engineered to appeal to drivers in this region

That does not say

it has been designed to match the handling of the 5 series.

Linas.P · April 25, 2018

12 minutes ago, Jamesf1 said:

That does not say it has been designed to match the handling of the 5 series.

It kind of does, both according to the Lexus and multiple sources like Autocar, who just echoes Lexus words... BMW is company known for driver focused experience, handling, cornering, performance.. harsh ride in result and if Lexus going against one of their finest .. that is implicit.

@doog442 - touch of retro RX as well..

mpls · April 25, 2018

21 minutes ago, Linas.P said:

It kind of does, both according to the Lexus and multiple sources like Autocar, who just echoes Lexus words... BMW is company known for driver focused experience, handling, cornering, performance.. harsh ride in result and if Lexus going against one of their finest .. that is implicit.

@doog442 - touch of retro RX as well..

The GS/IS ( same) chassis is actually pretty good.. There was a video or 2 a few years ago about the IS350 in USA which placed it above a en equivalent BMW, and in fcat the GS-F stiood up well asainst the M5. I don;t think any of the auto publications in the UK wil dare make such points even if Lexus does well against BMW/Merc in handling.. So i think Lexus are capable of it.. if you compare say an A5/A6/A4 unless you order AWD, it;s basically FWD cars, not sure about A*..

Linas.P · April 25, 2018

I think GS-F was praised by UK "auto publications" anyway - Clarkson, Chris Harris etc. liked it. IS350 and IS250 stacks very well against petrol BMW in same price range, IS300h stacks decently agaist BMW diesels, the problem is that we don't get IS350 here.

Ten Ninety · April 25, 2018

8 hours ago, rayaans said:

The Blue doesn't do the ES any favours to be honest. Seems to suit lighter colours. This was the interior photo I got sent originally on snapchat:

That angle makes it look much better than the other photo, where the binnacle looks weird. Not sure about the brown and cream 70s vibe, but the wood looks nice!

However, as I said before, Lexus are very good at making things look great in photos. I was referring more to materials than exterior design, and the materials in that photo look predictably high-class - pretty much like the photos of the LS. However, Lexus uses interior photos of the CT and IS that make those cars look like they have top quality materials, but when you sit in them they're disappointingly cheap.

The current GS, for all its many faults, does at least have a proper quality feel to the interior and is a notable step up from the IS/CT in that respect. If the ES can't match the GS for materials quality, that's a big negative. The new 300h drivetrain is interesting to me with the claims of greater efficiency, but if Premier spec doesn't have a HUD, 18-way seats and a passenger ottoman like the current GS, then I'm out. However, my tastes are somewhat niche (which is how I come to be in a GS) so I doubt Lexus will be too concerned at my lack of interest - particularly if they are successful in their apparent objective of persuading all the mass-market consumers of Audi dieselburgers to buy a Lexus hybrid instead.