New Lexus's

Linas.P · April 22, 2018

On 31/01/2018 at 8:05 PM, ghost_killer said:

So now Lexus UK scrapped the non-hybrid cars (IS200t etc..) from their cars in UK, bar the F models and the LC500, how come they done this ?? Apart from the obvious the hybrids sells lot better, are Lexus trying to promote a eco brand image or something ? BMW sell quite abit of their 320i models and I seen quite a few 540i's either way more than before not to mention the 330e and I see lot of new / current shape Audi A4 petrols about again certainly more than before(despite not being hybrids), I guess all this is to do with the VW diesel scandal, so I would of thought even more reason to continue with non hybrid Lexus IS's !! Bad enough we not got the IS350 in first place !!

Just to acknowledge the original question and maybe prevent this thread becoming another never ending IS200t vs. 250 battle (I know too late..) I wanted to point out few things.

Lexus was promoting Eco Brand for very long time now... maybe in our eyes GS450h and RX400h doesn't look "that eco", but in American eyes they are running on grass and water. Lexus is no.1 in places like Hollywood, Silicon Valley .. which is great price to be and free partnerships/promotion (google self driving cars, movies etc.). So yes - Lexus build their entire brand around hybrids and eco-friendliness. It doesn't surprise me a single bit they will try to expand it.

I agree re: IS350 - I just feel like Lexus is not serious about EU market, even if they going to sell terrible amount (like 124 IS200t's) that is still better then allowing 124 potentially loyal customers to switch brand. Maybe in Isolation 124 cars will make loss, but returning custom my sell other cars in the range and built the brand in long term.

Furthermore - I see nothing wrong with all-hybrid range. That would not be anything new e.g. Volvo already committed to go full EV, many more brands will be following suit soon. What is the problem is that 300h as a singular-god-offer-cover-all.. just doesn't cut it. They can go full hybrid, but I believe they still should offer all engines to all cars (where applicable) from 200h to 600h.

Finally, at least in UK (not the case in rest of EU) government already killed support for hybrids.. because our government is simply shot-sighted and stupid. Before hybrids even have chance to replace diesels in the city, they cut the support off. The reason I am saying that is:

VED changes - all cars except EV now paying £140/year so no advantage having hybrid.
Tax changes on BIK and salary sacrifice, now requires under 75g Co2 and that means only PHEVs qualifies.

It would make sense for Lexus, to make double move - like going all PHEV range, but it is unlikely to happen only because UK specific rules.

Andrew888 · April 22, 2018

From a Product Management perspective deciding to scrap a product contains some certain factors:

ROI - Return on Investment - Is the product profitable in that particular country/market i.e worth doing with all the Marketing campaigns etc factored in
Sell out figures- obviously this is very important - to gauge again whether its worth continuing your product OPEX costs etc
SWOT - Analysis , Strengths, Weakness Opportunities and Threats - Again, Scrapping the 200T and introducing a 300, 350 etc - is it viable vs other Petrol competitors (Probably not)
3 Year Strategy - This is already set in stone in Japan for the UK - So scrapping IS200T was more than likely on the cards for a very long time
Did the IS200T do well in Japan ? We are only a handful of countries in the world that are RHD that has a viable market. If a collective figure is way below forecast, they need to cut their losses and scrap it as not making money is not on their agenda!
Making these cars take alot of planning - If its not making the company money then there is no point in making it. Focus manpower and increase production on a line that is far more good selling and again - Profitable...
Know your market - Does the UK audience/consumer require an IS300/350 big petrol engines? again probably not...

Thats what I would do anyway ...

doog442 · April 22, 2018

9 hours ago, peachy said:

Motor Trend also rate the IS200T at 7 seconds . Probably the most accurate figure.

Not only is this very poor performance for a modern 2 litre 4 pot turbo it also offers fuel consumption on a very similar scale to the IS250 that you seem to take delight in slagging off.

Is it any wonder the car never sold and was scrapped as soon as it hit the shelves

And of course this thread isn't about you two slagging off the IS200t .. post#2...well peachy I'm here to defend my car and educate you bearing in mind you base performance on traffic light tear ups with ST200's correct?

The evidence is on this thread. The vehicle was never advertised as a performance vehicle. It sits comfortably amongst similar 4 cylinder petrol turbos in that aspect as I said earlier. That is the BMW 320I ,Audi A4 TFSI, likewise Skoda Octvavia VRS and the others I mentioned..all so conveniently ignored by you. As a matter of fact its quicker than the BMW and Audi.

Someone keeps throwing a 330i into the equation but ignores the far better selling 320i. The engines are almost identical, one has lower compression,has been mapped and has a hefty price tag on top that doesn't include options. Lexus have chosen not to squeeze every inch of power out of their engines which is why they tend to be so damned reliable, unlike our German friends

You didn't pick your car based on performance (obviously), I sold a 2012 3 litre twin turbo BMW to get back into a Lexus so It wasn't high on my agenda . I didn't want to do hybrid and didn't want to go backwards into an IS250.

Your reasons for it being discontinued in the UK are like you performance figures for you car - plucked from thin air. Look at the post above you. Its still sold in the US and Canada and is doing very well . Have a good day

mrfunex · April 22, 2018

Their model range is a little unusual, I’ve not driven an RX200t, but I’d imagine the engine to be fairly unsuitable for the type of vehicle.

Shame a RC450h was never on the cards, that would have been good!

ColinBarber · April 22, 2018

13 hours ago, Rebecca said:

Hmmm🤔 I'm pretty sure the recorded time of 7.1 seconds was achieved in an IS250 F-sport meaning it's an automatic as a manual F-sport was never produced.

Tested in 2006, before the F-Sport existed and clearly states manual transmission.

https://www.caranddriver.com/reviews/2006-lexus-is250-short-take-road-test

0-60 7.1 sec, 0-62 is therefore around 7.4 sec.

ColinBarber · April 22, 2018

2 hours ago, mrfunex said:

Their model range is a little unusual, I’ve not driven an RX200t, but I’d imagine the engine to be fairly unsuitable for the type of vehicle.

Shame a RC450h was never on the cards, that would have been good!

Lexus Europe have decided to only offer hybrids (expect for the LC and Fs). 200t has been dropped across all models due to poor sales and their marketing decision to be all hybrid.

Year to date, Lexus GB has seen a market share increase, the first time for a few years, because of the decline in diesel sales and move towards hybrids. You could therefore argue their strategy is correct, they just don't cater for people who want semi high performance cars or manual transmissions which some people here seem to be upset about.

I'm not use the 450h package can fit in the RC. Even if it could it doesn't warrant the investment as the RC350 satisfies that space in the US, which is their main market.

rich1068 · April 22, 2018

Could the last few contributors to this thread give the common sense a well earned rest and can we please get back on topic re: which models are quickest away from the traffic lights in a 30 mph urban setting.

rayaans · April 22, 2018

6 hours ago, mrfunex said:

Their model range is a little unusual, I’ve not driven an RX200t, but I’d imagine the engine to be fairly unsuitable for the type of vehicle.

Shame a RC450h was never on the cards, that would have been good!

Love whats counted as abusive behaviour nowadays

Anyways, the RC200T wasn't too bad tbh. Felt no slower than the RX300 I had and certainly didnt feel as as slow as an NX300h.

Obviously, it was stupid to go for one though - initially thought about it but realised the 450h is worth it in extra expense, especially after the RX200ts are dropping value like a rock.

Worth mentioning that Caradvice Australia like the RX200t and said it was just as fast as an RX350 in mid-range.

The road noise in the 3IS is no worse than in a 2IS - in fact its probably a bit quieter. Its silly to say otherwise. Its nearly as quiet as my RX is and that's saying something.

ColinBarber · April 22, 2018

3 hours ago, rayaans said:

Love whats counted as abusive behaviour nowadays

Be polite. Treat your fellow members with respect. Personal attacks and/or name calling in any form will not be tolerated and will result in you being removed from the club on either a permanent or temporary basis.

We expect all members to follow the forum T&Cs. If you don't agree with them, leave.

https://www.lexusownersclub.co.uk/terms-conditions/

doog442 · April 22, 2018

20 hours ago, Linas.P said:

Lexus Sold ~31000 IS200 and another 1700 of IS300, so lets say ~32700. But that includes ~1400 "sport-cross", so a bit of oranges vs. apples.. Saloon vs. saloon figure would be 30k vs. 31.3k... not massive difference, not something you would call "decline". However, worldwide mk2 outsold mk1 3:1. All these numbers are nothing compared to sales flop of only 124 IS200t sold. When they say - we don't bring RC350 in UK, because there is no market for it (and it is not worth certification costs) - surely you cannot sell less then 124 cars...

124 IS200t's ?? There appear to be 7 RCF's currently taxed and only 229 ICF'S so a little unfair there Linas ...bearing in mind how long the ICF has been around. Are you going to pop over to the F forum and tell them their cars are a flop ..or suggest building one from one of those 14 thousand IS220's

Very selective as usual if you don't mind me saying, which of course you won't

Linas.P · April 22, 2018

What is ICF?

You not trying to compare your rattle can with 2.0t with 5L N/A V8 "F" cars? Obviously, "F" cars sells in low numbers - that is expected. There are 204 RC-F not 7.

13 hours ago, doog442 said:

Someone keeps throwing a 330i into the equation but ignores the far better selling 320i.

That is because you are comparing performance, not what was selling the most. IS200t performance was similar to BMW320i, but price was more like 330i -that is why it is fairer to compare it to 330i. That just shows, that IS200t was sub-par with competitors as it only barely matched BMW320i which was £6k cheaper.

doog442 · April 22, 2018

26 minutes ago, Linas.P said:

What is ICF?

You not trying to compare your rattle can with 2.0t with 5L N/A V8 "F" cars? Obviously, "F" cars sells in low numbers - that is expected. There are 204 RC-F not 7.

That is because you are comparing performance, not what was selling the most. IS200t performance was similar to BMW320i, but price was more like 330i -that is why it is fairer to compare it to 330i. That just shows, that IS200t was sub-par with competitors as it only barely matched BMW320i which was £6k cheaper.

Its called a typo mate and tired eyes. Of course you'd be the first to leap on that one. Low numbers you say.. the same low numbers as an M3 /M4 per chance ?

Explain that one away like your 330i weird comparison.

Back on topic. Lets chuck a Mercedes C class into the equation , perhaps a Volvo S60 T4 as well as the A4 and the previously mentioned JAGUAR and VRS.

You keep on battering the Lexus corner as you do best...

peachy · April 22, 2018

2 hours ago, doog442 said:

There appear to be 7 RCF's

Penny just dropped?

doog442 · April 22, 2018

You can do PM's without being abusive Peachy old boy

Thanks anyway.

Hopefully its not the beer talking mate.

doog442 · April 22, 2018

4 minutes ago, peachy said:

He's obviously tanked up with lager again. Comes here every weekend and deliberately tries to wind people up to cause a reaction, especially IS250 owners.

Every weekend you say ?

I'm often here midweek as well.

The IS250 is a lovely car peachers but I believe we are currently in the process of slagging off the IS200t if i'm not mistaken.

Linas.P · April 22, 2018

27 minutes ago, doog442 said:

Its called a typo mate and tired eyes.

Explain that one away like your 330i weird comparison.

it was the case first time, but 2 typos in the same sentence on the same word... I though you onto something. As numbers didn't add-up I was a bit lost what you actually want to say. I guess you meant 229 IS-F and 204 RC-F? Maybe... that is all guess work...

Explanation is simple - BMW330i costs the same as Lexus IS200t, whereas BMW320i is cheaper car. Therefore it make sense to compare it to 330i. Skoda VRS is value/sports .. not luxury, not comparable. Volvo S60 is different category all together, S40 is at the level of IS.. so again not comparable. Audi doesn't have comparable A4, 2.0TSFI costs 33k (like BMW 320i) and it is tiny bit faster (7.3). There is S4, which is comparable to BMW 340i and MB C43AMG (or IS350 for that matter)... I short I really struggle to find the suitable competitor for IS200t - it was BMW330i in price, but BMW320i in performance - in short... it made nos sense at that price point with that performance.

doog442 · April 22, 2018

Just now, Linas.P said:

it was the case first time, but 2 typos in the same sentence on the same word... I though you onto something. As numbers didn't add-up I was a bit lost what you actually want to say. I guess you meant 229 IS-F and 204 RC-F? Maybe... that is all guess work...

Explanation is simple - BMW330i costs the same as Lexus IS200t, whereas BMW320i is cheaper car. Therefore it make sense to compare it to 330i. Skoda VRS is value/sports .. not luxury, not comparable. Volvo S60 is different category all together, S40 is at the level of IS.. so again not comparable. Audi doesn't have comparable A4, 2.0TSFI costs 33k (like BMW 320i) and it is tiny bit faster (7.3). There is S4, which is comparable to BMW 340i and MB C43AMG (or IS350 for that matter)... I short I really struggle to find the suitable competitor for IS200t - it was BMW330i in price, but BMW320i in performance - in short... it made nos sense at that price point with that performance.

Linas

My list of cars was in reply to Rebecca who stated "Infact I can't think of a modern 2 litre turbo thats actually slower than the Lexus."

Ive provided a list and they are nearly all slower. What part of this are you struggling to get your head around ?

People dont buy a Lexus for its bone shaking performance...there's a raft of other stuff including reliability / comfort /customer service.

Linas.P · April 22, 2018

Ok.. fine it makes sense... I give you that - all cars you have listed are in fact 2.0t and slower. However, most of them didn't cost £33k... so it isn't fair comparison.

I agree with second part as well : "People dont buy a Lexus for its bone shaking performance" - in which case IS200t is pointless car, sort of misfit. IS300h is just as reliable, more comfortable and smoother, customer service is certainly the same + it is much more fuel efficient. If you don't care about fuel consumtion, then IS250mk3 is more reliable then both, more comfortable and smoother then both - kind of best choice for "Lexus buyers" based on your definition.

Anyway.. I don't think IS200t is terrible car, it just wasn't well placed/price in UK market. It is not fast to be considered real sports car in 2013, 4 pot takes away form luxury, so it isn't great as luxury car either, price was rather steep and for anyone upgrading it was hard to justify getting it. Back in 2013 (until 2017 in fact) it was still sensible to get hybrid for tax reasons so everyone got IS300h - kind of obvious. Now when tax is against hybrids.. I don't know what Lexus is planning to sell.

Is 200t de facto better then IS250 mk2 if we don't consider the price - maybe.. better then IS250 mk3.. I don't think so. But when I compare £4k IS250 mk2 vs. 18k IS200t.. and all I get is less luxury from luxury car and 0.5s 0-60... that is always going to be hard to justify.