NX450h

[Martin J]

A few recent posts about NX owners changing - or thinking of changing - cars has made me think about my next steps. After 2.5 years I still find the NX300h a really appealing package, but I can't escape the feeling that a bit more power, whether petrol or electric, would be ideal. With the demise of the 200t the NX has only one drivetrain choice, unusual for a strongly-selling mid-size SUV.  I've flirted with the idea of a 4RX, but apart from the cost it's a bigger car than I need or want. For me, the NX is an ideal size, and I particularly like the cosy cockpit architecture. I've speculated before about whether the 450h drivetrain would fit the NX - presumably it weighs a bit more so the NX suspension might need retuning. But the official consumption & CO2 figures for the RX are hardly any worse than for the NX, suggesting the the 3.5 V6 is at least as efficient as the 2.5 litre L4 lump in the NX. I imagine that product planning for the next gen NX is already well advanced, and I wonder whether any other owners would welcome the option of a more powerful drivetrain in the new NX, presumably due in 2019/20?

[rayaans]

On 02/12/2017 at 8:08 PM, Martin J said:

A few recent posts about NX owners changing - or thinking of changing - cars has made me think about my next steps. After 2.5 years I still find the NX300h a really appealing package, but I can't escape the feeling that a bit more power, whether petrol or electric, would be ideal. With the demise of the 200t the NX has only one drivetrain choice, unusual for a strongly-selling mid-size SUV.  I've flirted with the idea of a 4RX, but apart from the cost it's a bigger car than I need or want. For me, the NX is an ideal size, and I particularly like the cosy cockpit architecture. I've speculated before about whether the 450h drivetrain would fit the NX - presumably it weighs a bit more so the NX suspension might need retuning. But the official consumption & CO2 figures for the RX are hardly any worse than for the NX, suggesting the the 3.5 V6 is at least as efficient as the 2.5 litre L4 lump in the NX. I imagine that product planning for the next gen NX is already well advanced, and I wonder whether any other owners would welcome the option of a more powerful drivetrain in the new NX, presumably due in 2019/20?

Welcomed but won't happen as it'll mean RX sales will be cannibalised 

The RX is insane though, much more than just a larger car and the difference between the NX and RX is like night and day. The NX is more akin to the IS300H.  The RX is like a GS but even more refined with the 3.5l V6

[DanD]

Same dilemma here. I love the new RX, but it is too big for my needs. I like the NX very much, but I keep wondering about lack of power, although I have to admit that NX owners seem to be happy with it. I even checked the Irish Lexus website in the hope that the 200T might be available over there, but it would seem that it's not.

Might end up trying to source a second hand 200T: after all, I can't imagine that it would be any more expensive to run than a RX...

Maybe the alternative is a IS300h... or even a gs300h...

Jury's still out...

[rayaans]

6 hours ago, DanD said:

Same dilemma here. I love the new RX, but it is too big for my needs. I like the NX very much, but I keep wondering about lack of power, although I have to admit that NX owners seem to be happy with it. I even checked the Irish Lexus website in the hope that the 200T might be available over there, but it would seem that it's not.

Might end up trying to source a second hand 200T: after all, I can't imagine that it would be any more expensive to run than a RX...

Maybe the alternative is a IS300h... or even a gs300h...

Jury's still out...

GS is about the same size as the RX. The IS is about the same length as the 3RX. The NX is smallest of the lot.

[DanD]

You're right. The extra height of SUV often leads to the incorrect assumption that they are much bigger than saloon cars, when in fact it is rarely the case.

[javadude]

I recently replaced my aging RX400h. I wanted an RX450h but its too big for my garage so I had to choose between nasty diesel Q3 or X3, thirsty petrol macan or the NX. The NX is painfully slow compared to the RX but I've learned to live with it. It's sad that after 10 years of development the Lexus hybrid technology only manages an extra 9 mpg (37mpg for the NX vs 28mpg for the RX) in real life driving for such a drop in performance. Apart from the performance... ok and slightly harder seats and ride... I do love the NX.

[paulrnx]

Interesting subject. Despite 10 months with my NX300h I also can't escape the fact that I want a bit more power and torque. Whenever I need to get a bit of a move on or drive up steep hills I'm reminded how poor this car is. I've got three months to decide whether I'll live with it or change. 3 months is a bit arbitary but I want to be sure I still feel the same then. If I do, it's going. I had a wobble at about 5 months into ownership but persevered and I guess this is my second wobble. The latest generation RX is about a foot longer than an NX which makes a difference in today's parking spaces which are, remarkably, still defined by legislation brought out in the 70's. I'd love an NX450h but I'm sure we'll never get one because it would take sales from the RX for sure. If I change I will look at a latest generation RX450h.

[Martin J]

The point about cannibalisation of RX sales is interesting, since the German manufacturers seem to offer overlapping powertrain choices between their mid-size and large SUV ranges. Two points on this: (i) Lexus could differentiate the V6 NX from the RX by referring to it as NX400h and slightly detuning the engine (or leaving it alone) (ii) lost RX sales, if any, might be more than compensated by winning sales from customers who would otherwise go elsewhere for midsize SUVs with a bit of performance.  I guess more performance could  alternatively come from beefing up the electric component of the drivetrain, but I would imagine that dropping in an existing (450h) package would be less costly in development terms.

[rayaans]

4 hours ago, Martin J said:

The point about cannibalisation of RX sales is interesting, since the German manufacturers seem to offer overlapping powertrain choices between their mid-size and large SUV ranges. Two points on this: (i) Lexus could differentiate the V6 NX from the RX by referring to it as NX400h and slightly detuning the engine (or leaving it alone) (ii) lost RX sales, if any, might be more than compensated by winning sales from customers who would otherwise go elsewhere for midsize SUVs with a bit of performance.  I guess more performance could  alternatively come from beefing up the electric component of the drivetrain, but I would imagine that dropping in an existing (450h) package would be less costly in development terms.

Its similiar to how Lexus brought out the GS450h and GS250 to begin with. They had a 50:50 sales split I believe. However, when the GS300h came out, this changed - barely 10% of GS sales are GS450h anymore. 

So you can imagine what would happen if they brought out an NX450h. There wouldn't really be any plausible reason to get an RX and sales would dwindle, especially as they'd have to price the NX cheaper by atleast £3-4k

[Eggie]

 

Could this be the new crossover flagship over the RX

http://www.autoexpress.co.uk/lexus/

[Martin J]

1 hour ago, rayaans said:

Its similiar to how Lexus brought out the GS450h and GS250 to begin with. They had a 50:50 sales split I believe. However, when the GS300h came out, this changed - barely 10% of GS sales are GS450h anymore. 

So you can imagine what would happen if they brought out an NX450h. There wouldn't really be any plausible reason to get an RX and sales would dwindle, especially as they'd have to price the NX cheaper by atleast £3-4k

Thanks Rayaan, but not entirely sure that I see this. The success of the GS300h was probably driven at least in part by much lower BIK and running costs than the GS250 and GS450h, while offering the same space and refinement. Here, it's a size issue - people who want a big luxury SUV would still go for the RX over the NX, even if the latter were available as an NX450h. (As a separate issue, it'd be really interesting to know how RX200t/RX450h sales split - I suspect heavily towards the latter). And Audi clearly feel that offering a 3-litre Q5 isn't taking enough Q7 sales for that to be a problem.

[rayaans]

4 hours ago, Martin J said:

Thanks Rayaan, but not entirely sure that I see this. The success of the GS300h was probably driven at least in part by much lower BIK and running costs than the GS250 and GS450h, while offering the same space and refinement. Here, it's a size issue - people who want a big luxury SUV would still go for the RX over the NX, even if the latter were available as an NX450h. (As a separate issue, it'd be really interesting to know how RX200t/RX450h sales split - I suspect heavily towards the latter). And Audi clearly feel that offering a 3-litre Q5 isn't taking enough Q7 sales for that to be a problem.

Not entirely. The GS250 was cheaper to buy than the 300h and with mighty discounts even at launch. Additionally the refinement of the 300h and 450h can't really be compared, neither can the performance or extra bits like Rear wheel steering on the GS atleast. 

The difference with the Q5 is that the base engine is actually fine in terms of performance simply because of the torque rendering it slightly unneeded to change up to a 3.0l. The problem the NX has is that the base motor is lacking power and I can bet 9/10 most would pay an extra £3-4k for the NX450h and it'd tempt people away from the RX450h which is one of Lexus main models

Also the Q7 is a 7 seater whereas the Q5 is a 5 seater. Lexus only has 5 seaters in the range until next year. I doubt many Q5s sell in the 3.0l diesel anymore. The majority are 2.0l diesels. 

[paulrnx]

20 hours ago, Martin J said:

The point about cannibalisation of RX sales is interesting, since the German manufacturers seem to offer overlapping powertrain choices between their mid-size and large SUV ranges. Two points on this: (i) Lexus could differentiate the V6 NX from the RX by referring to it as NX400h and slightly detuning the engine (or leaving it alone) (ii) lost RX sales, if any, might be more than compensated by winning sales from customers who would otherwise go elsewhere for midsize SUVs with a bit of performance.  I guess more performance could  alternatively come from beefing up the electric component of the drivetrain, but I would imagine that dropping in an existing (450h) package would be less costly in development terms.

Yes, agreed. Thought about this very thing as I was typing my earlier post. There is plenty of overlap in Audi & BMW SUV ranges, no question. Maybe Lexus will always sell fewer cars and wants to stay that way to maintain some level of exclusivity and quality too? I'd really like to see an NX450h or at least another NX with a bit more performance than an NX300h.

[Ian J. Parsley]

I honestly don't see the problem with the 300h. If you really want power, surely you don't want an SUV to start with?

I don't find the NX300h much worse power-wide than the IS300h - the only major driving disadvantage, I find, is the turning circle.

[rayaans]

On 15/12/2017 at 5:46 AM, Ian J. Parsley said:

I honestly don't see the problem with the 300h. If you really want power, surely you don't want an SUV to start with?

I don't find the NX300h much worse power-wide than the IS300h - the only major driving disadvantage, I find, is the turning circle.

That's not true though is it? 

The SUV is the biggest growing market and it's because they're perceived as more practical and also have a good view of the road. They tend to have more head and legroom too than saloons for example and look better to most than estates.

The 300h in the NX struggles up a hill with 5 people and suitcases. It struggles on the motorway to maintain 70mph fully loaded to the gills and requires lots of throttle input to get going which in turn makes a racket. 

Drive an RX450H and youll instantly know the difference. The RX feels strong at any speed, any incline and even when fully loaded. It's one of the main reasons diesels are favoured in SUVs because of the torque 

Like joining a motorway for example. In the RX you give a good stab of the throttle and it's at motorway speeds which makes merging easier. I've found the NX takes a long time to get up to speed which is problematic on smaller slip roads like on the A64 where some slip roads literally turn onto a motorway and you have no chance of getting on if you stop at the lines.

Edited December 17, 2017 by rayaans

[Guest]

When we changed from the NX to the RX it took us all of about 5mins of driving the RX to know we were going to have it,even though the NX had great interior quality the power and extra space of the RX was much better.Two years on we are still loving it and look forward to getting the 4RX in a year or so.

[paulrnx]

I've taken to driving just about everywhere in Sport mode. This just about makes the car feel normal with a reasonable shove when accelerating. Not much of an impact on economy too. But boy oh boy is this car slow though when you ask for acceleration and the brain decides you can't have any Battery assistance because the Battery charge level is too low.

[Ian J. Parsley]

My implied comparison is with an IS, because that's really the alignment; an RX would be more a GS.

What I am emphasising is having switched from IS to NX, although I notice there is a decline in power, it hasn't ever bothered me. So if you would be happy with an IS, I'd say 90% you'll be happy with an NX.

It is easy to say "Just go for the RX if you want the power" (and that is indeed is my own inclination), but then it is considerably more expensive.

So I guess what I am saying is, balancing it with what you actually pay, I don't imagine you'll be worried about "power" in an NX. As Paul implies, if you need a bit of oomph you can flick it into sport.

All that said, I once drove to Morocco in a 65bhp Vauxhall Corsa. Anyone who thinks an NX lacks power, I urge you to try that...!

[rayaans]

4 hours ago, Ian J. Parsley said:

My implied comparison is with an IS, because that's really the alignment; an RX would be more a GS.

What I am emphasising is having switched from IS to NX, although I notice there is a decline in power, it hasn't ever bothered me. So if you would be happy with an IS, I'd say 90% you'll be happy with an NX.

It is easy to say "Just go for the RX if you want the power" (and that is indeed is my own inclination), but then it is considerably more expensive.

So I guess what I am saying is, balancing it with what you actually pay, I don't imagine you'll be worried about "power" in an NX. As Paul implies, if you need a bit of oomph you can flick it into sport.

All that said, I once drove to Morocco in a 65bhp Vauxhall Corsa. Anyone who thinks an NX lacks power, I urge you to try that...!

Its not really an issue at low speeds. Anything up to about 40mph and it feels fairly peppy. 

It's just over that speed where the aerodynamics and weight come into play a bit more. 

Generally an SUV needs more power than its saloon counterpart so I'm quite astounded that they went for 197hp rather than 240hp atleast.

It's actually less than the 13 year old 2004 RX which I had - 201hp and 0.1s faster to 0-60mph. 

Obviously those are just numbers but the 2RX felt quicker

[DanD]

It would seem that the only club members who complain about the NX potential lack of powers are members who have switched from an RX to an NX. Is that correct?

[First_Lexus]

On 22/12/2017 at 10:08 AM, DanD said:

It would seem that the only club members who complain about the NX potential lack of powers are members who have switched from an RX to an NX. Is that correct?

^^ It does read a bit like that @DanD. Also perhaps members who have come to the NX from other more powerful vehicles.

I came to the NX300h from a Honda CR-V 2.0 petrol/auto, and compared to that the NX has significantly more power across the piece. Having now had an NX for three months, I can honestly say I've never found power an issue in any situation, although I should add that I drive with smoothness and comfort in mind rather than pace.

[Martin J]

On 12/22/2017 at 10:08 AM, DanD said:

It would seem that the only club members who complain about the NX potential lack of powers are members who have switched from an RX to an NX. Is that correct?

My previous car was a Prius. I know that the non-linear relationship between engine speed and road speed in hybrids can sometimes give the mistaken impression that the car is struggling, and that's something I'm happy to put up with in exchange for the low and mid-range refinement of the hybrid drivetrain. But I'd expected the NX to feel faster than the Prius, and it doesn't.  In particular, as Rayaan has observed,  the NX does not impress when fully laden on motorways . Probably another 30kW would fix it. My speculation about an NX450h was just that it might be cheaper to develop than revising the existing drivetrain - and give customers a wider choice.  But an uprated base drivetrain - an NX350h? - might work if Lexus are intent on retaining the single-drivetrain offer with the NX.

[paulrnx]

On 12/22/2017 at 10:08 AM, DanD said:

It would seem that the only club members who complain about the NX potential lack of powers are members who have switched from an RX to an NX. Is that correct?

I didn't much like the performance of my IS300h either. For me, the circa 155BHP 2.5 litre petrol engine and hybrid powertrain doesn't give enough performance. I'm not talking about 0-60 times, I'm talking in gear acceleration say between 40 and 80 because this is where this car is particularly poor. On an A road an overtake requires too much time on the other side of the road and pulling out of the inside or middle lane of a motorway when baulked by slower traffic and having to accelerate into the faster lanes requires far too much mashing of accelerator and noise to go with it. I'm also always hesitant about how much torque I'll actually get too because I've been caught out a few times when the Battery charge is low and any acceleration  only provided by the petrol engine. I love my car when pootling around in town and on 40-50MPH country roads. I positively hate it on long fairly congested motorway journeys and on faster flowing A roads. All depends upon expectations and what you've been used to in the past I guess. I really miss all three of my Jaguar XFs which all had completely effortless performance. I believe I will get rid of mine and I'll be looking at an NX200t, a petrol-engined E-Pace, GS450h, RX450h and possibly another Jaguar XF and would expect to make a decision in about 2 months time. Unfortunately I didn't get keys for any of these under the tree at Christmas! I'm also going to look at an ISF and a Jaguar XFR because probably this is my last opportunity to tick the V8 box again. Heart says yes, head says no. What I do know is I will have something that provides better performance in terms of response and 'in gear' acceleration.