Keyless start disabling.

[parkman]

 was reading another forum where there was a discussion about turning off the keyless start. Can it be turned off on the Gen.III IS300h, and if so then how do you start the car afterwards ?

 

Parkman.

[matt8]

There's an option in the manual that details disabling keyless entry (stops the key broadcasting a signal, therefore requires you to press the unlock button on fob) but I'm unaware of any option for disabling keyless start.

Are the two being mixed up?

There was mention here the other day about holding key over start button, which could be deemed as disabling keyless start perhaps?

[parkman]

Hi Matt, you may be right in that the discussion was incorrectly talking about keyless start, when it should have been keyless entry. It would make more sense if it were about the entry process because posters were on about having their cars taken off the drive because their key fobs were being read by a mobile phone or a laptop.

The only way, as far as I am aware, of stealing the car was that the thief could, indeed, read the keyfob code and open the car, but he couldn't start the car. What has happened in some cases is that the car has been towed away once it has been opened, but it can't be started.

Sounds like a storm in a teacup to me [mind you, it was on the "Mercedes" owners forum !!!].

Parkman.

[NemesisUK]

If the thief can read the fob to gain entry he can also start the car (with KeylessGo). 

The recently well advertised video from the Police shows the thieves using a relay box next to the car and a high gain antenna to pick up the keyless signal from the fob. The signal, relayed to the box next to the car tricks the car into thinking the fob is present and so opens and will start. Obviously once driven away the thieves can't restart the car once the IGN is switched off but by then they are miles away.. 

I simply place my keylessGo fob in a tin box when home. This blocks the signals.

[talaipwros]

kitchen foil does the trick as well

[parkman]

That was more or less what  thought would happen, but I wasn't sure. I have always dropped my keys, from years of habit, into an old tea caddy which just happens to be metal. It was always a convenient place to keep car keys in the kitchen when myself or my wife came in.

Parkman.

[rayaans]

13 hours ago, parkman said:

That was more or less what  thought would happen, but I wasn't sure. I have always dropped my keys, from years of habit, into an old tea caddy which just happens to be metal. It was always a convenient place to keep car keys in the kitchen when myself or my wife came in.

Parkman.

You can get plenty of signal blocking key covers which is a better solution IMO

[NemesisUK]

7 minutes ago, rayaans said:

You can get plenty of signal blocking key covers which is a better solution IMO

Better in what way?

[Guest]

You don't get tea leaves in your buttons.

[capese21]

15 hours ago, NemesisUK said:

The recently well advertised video from the Police shows the thieves using a relay box next to the car and a high gain antenna to pick up the keyless signal from the fob.

Most high end cars are stolen by plugging a device into the OBD port and cloning  a new key same as a main dealer will do if the fobs had been lost.

If you are worried just put your fob into an RFID pouch.

I don't want to knobble the luxury features of my car on the highly unlikely chance of it being stolen in this way.

Ed

[Thackeray]

If you haven't got a tin box, you can also turn off the key's wireless transmission. The manual describes this as a Battery saving function but as it disables the wireless transmission from the key you also can't open the car doors by holding the door handle. Instead you have to press the unlock button on the key. As far as I understand it, this would make it impossible for a thief to steal the car by amplifying the key's signal - there's no longer any signal to amplify.

To disable the key, hold the lock button down while you double-press the unlock button. The red light on the key will flash four times to confirm the wireless transmission is turned off. You can also check this has worked by attempting to open the car by holding a door handle. The doors won't open when the key is turned off.

[parkman]

Thanks for all the posts. It is always interesting to get other peoples' views on issues like these. Do I do "X" or do I not. 

I am inclined to not be to concerned about the keyless entry/start/get the lawnmower out/starting the speedboat , but I might just reline my tea caddy with self adhesive foil air conditioning duct tape, which is about 3 inches wide as is very similar to kitchen foil, only with a sticky back. It's good stuff.

Parkman.

[NemesisUK]

A bit of science..

"By the way, science and radio engineering tells us that if you want to make your own Faraday cage, you want to use a highly conductive metal, like copper or aluminum (but not anodized aluminum). If you use a mesh, make sure the holes are smaller than 1/10 the wavelength of the signal. In North America and Japan, car remotes transmit at 315 megahertz, which is a wavelength of about .95 meters, so a mesh with holes smaller than 9.5 centimeters should work. Other countries use key fobs that work at 433.92 MHz, for a wavelength of .69 meters, so holes under 7cm are what you’re looking for. Those are pretty big holes. In our mesh box they were a lot smaller.

And the one thing you must do when making a Faraday enclosure for your key is to make sure the box closes. Otherwise, the radio signal will get in, and the relay exploit could still work.

Science notwithstanding, our experience tells us your best protection against the relay attack is to line a box with aluminum foil. It’s more reliable, even though a nice mesh box probably works well enough and certainly looks cooler."

https://makezine.com/2015/08/14/block-car-door-relay-hack-faraday-cage/

My first box had a neat plastic insert to hold the key but this insert was suspended by the rim of the lower box, so when the box lid cam down there was a rim of plastic visible. This, surprisingly, allowed the signals to get out and the car door could be opened. Next box had a overlapping lid, so when closed there was no gap. Standing next to the car, key in box, didn't allow me to open the door. 

[Sandy42]

43 minutes ago, NemesisUK said:

By the way, science and radio engineering tells us that if you want to make your own Faraday cage, you want to use a highly conductive metal, like copper or aluminum (but not anodized aluminum). If you use a mesh, make sure the holes are smaller than 1/10 the wavelength of the signal. In North America and Japan, car remotes transmit at 315 megahertz, which is a wavelength of about .95 meters, so a mesh with holes smaller than 9.5 centimeters should work. Other countries use key fobs that work at 433.92 MHz, for a wavelength of .69 meters, so holes under 7cm are what you’re looking for. Those are pretty big holes. In our mesh box they were a lot smaller.

Depends on the mesh thickness as well.

It's all to do with the equivalent waveguide lengths and cut-off wavelengths.

Just use Thackeray and Matt8's method and you wont need to worry about rf engineering and  cut-off wavelengths.

I stopped worrying about them when I retired

Oh - and your fob Battery will last longer as well.

 

[Mr Vlad]

Re a tea leaf using the OBD port. There are OBD locks available. Also it has been done by others is to move the OBD port somewhere else and replace it with a dummy OBD port.

(By others I mean folk from the Ford owning fraternity of which I was for many years and still keep in touch via their forums)

[talaipwros]

guys, just wrap the key in kitchen aluminium foil and check if you can open the door with it. You will find that you can not  ( at least it worked for me)

[parkman]

I think that the point is, if one wants to use modern technology then it needs to be made as simple and effective as possible.

Wrapping your keys in kitchen foil is pretty impractical, unless you only use the car once a week ! I see the point of testing the idea, but in real life a metal can with a lid, kept as far from the front door, is probably as good as it gets, at least from the point of view of being cheap, practical, and useful.

I believe it is possible to go too far in trying to secure things, to the point where there is no point in owning the item. I wouldn't buy a BMW, for instance, because I know that every scrote in the nieghbourhood will try to steal it, and I would have to put so much security on it that it would take 20 minutes to get into the car !! I just wouldn't be bothered. Keep it simple and, if possible, buy stuff that scumbags don't want to steal.!!

Parkman.

[Guest]

Has anyone stopped to look at the numbers?

0.3% of cars are stolen - of these the vast majority are German performance or Range rovers. Half uk thefts are around London area, then a lot near Manchester

http://www.autoguide.com/auto-news/2013/07/top-10-cars-least-likely-to-be-stolen.html

https://www.whatcar.com/news/the-most-stolen-cars-in-the-uk/

You're most at risk from contents being stolen which they can just smash a window for. Or use your car to take valuables away.

I have stop lock pro (Thatcham approved) in my RC - ok it can be defeated in 5 to 10 mins but do they come equipped to do that? Do they want to be prodding the horn while working on it?

Check types of crime for your area here:

https://www.police.uk/search/?next=policing%3Aforce%3Aneighbourhood%3Acrime%3Aindex

[parkman]

Yup, I agree with Sean. You have to look at crime figures to see the possible likelyhood of your car being stolen. As far as I am concerned, if you own a high performance, expensive car and you don't park it in a locked garage then it is a sitting target for the scumbags.

I made a decision about 18 months ago to buy cars much less likely to be stolen, and I bought a '91 Mercedes E260, an '83 Mercedes 560se, and the IS 300h. I sold two Jaguar XJR's and a Lotus Sunbeam, which I owned, because I began to worry about the paranoia of worrying about any of the cars being stolen !!!!!! Talk about being paranoid !!

Both the Mercs have one of the big steering lock arms, which sticks out sideways. A bit ugly, and it requires putting in the boot if you have passengers, but as Sean said, do the average car thieves today expect to come across a fairly dinosaur piece of anti-theft equipment ? I doubt it. Again, as Sean says, you can get it off in about 5 minutes but I suspect that that is 5 minutes that these slugs don't want to hang around for.

Parkman.

[NemesisUK]

24 minutes ago, parkman said:

'83 Mercedes 560se

Classic target for a container to the African continent ....

[bagpus]

On 02/12/2017 at 11:36 AM, rayaans said:

You can get plenty of signal blocking key covers which is a better solution IMO

Agree with Rayaans

I was concerned enough about this via media and the police to act. For me there were two main choices -  turn the smart entry and start off or use a blocker. I like the smart entry system and so was very reluctant to disable it, and yes through the menu system you can. However, it is one feature I like and I don't see why I should disable it just because of the risk of some scumbag stealing my pride and joy

So I purchased an RFID pouch/wallet instead. Cost was ~£6 from amazon and it works well. As soon as the car is locked and I walkway from it, the keys go into the pouch, and this happens wherever I am and  not just at home. Why carry the pouch on me at all times? Well this is a personal choice, but I can see a scenario where the car could be stolen using this technique whenever the keys are "not protected" e.g. in your pocket outside of your home. Of course, it would be more of a challenge due to greater likelihood of RF interference from other sources and not to mention being spotted.

Sorry, but wrapping keys in aluminium foil I agree is not practical if you use the car frequently! Also, although a lined box would work (assuming it meets the Faraday cage requirements) will work it would not so easy to carry it around with you when outside. 

Problem solved as far as I am concerned. 

 

 

[ColinBarber]

whatever blocking method you use, just make sure you test it. Place it next to the door handle and try and unlock the door with your hand as normal. Some of the cheaper bags on eBay don't work.

[tayaste]

I think I’d rather they Relay my keys from outside, rather than break down my door in the middle of the night and demand them from me.

[Mr Vlad]

Relay boxes placed near the car and a high power aerial to pick up the signal from the key?

Poppycock. There have been hand held devices used to pick up signals from car remote fobs and I've known about them since the 90's. They can also pick up the signal in keyless entry systems. 

To totally protect your car get an aftermarket alarm/isolator system fitted.

I've recently learnt about a new system called Ghost. I'l be making enquiries about its fitment to the is300h. 

[Slicendice]

On 12/2/2017 at 3:03 PM, Thackeray said:

To disable the key, hold the lock button down while you double-press the unlock button. The red light on the key will flash four times to confirm the wireless transmission is turned off. You can also check this has worked by attempting to open the car by holding a door handle. The doors won't open when the key is turned off.

Thanks for this Thackeray,  so once you are in, how does the start button know you have the fob?  Or does it not need it?