LS430 Facelift.

[mrdoofa]

Hi,

You May remember I started a thread not long ago about buying another LS400 on gumtree, I decided to give that car a miss because it seemed a bit too rough for the asking price and it looked like corrosion had started in the boot thanks to a leaking seal and a rubber plug being missing.

I do now quite like the idea of a facelift LS430, there are a few nice looking examples on auto trader at the moment. My biggest concern is that I’ve had an LS430 before that suffered gearbox failure which I think was due to water leaking into the transmission fluid so this has made me a bit wary but I still really like the LS430!!! The one I had was a 2002 prefacelift with 200k on the clock, the ones I am looking at now are much lower mileage than that.

Is this still an issue on facelift cars? Is there any way to tell by looking at the coolant and dipping the gearbox oil to see if there is a problem? 

I heard that the heated and cooled seats were improved for the facelift, is this correct? How well do they work because they hardly worked at all on my old car lol!!!

Finally, is the air suspension any more reliable on the facelift? It never went wrong on my last car but I know it can be a problem.

Many thanks guys,

Martin.

 

[messi]

I had a facelift ls430, lovely car, I was lucky, the previous owner before me had the air suspension issue and had replaced both rear air suspension at just over £700 each at lexus main dealers and had the radiator replaced because yes they do suffer from the same gearbox issue too so lexus advised him it was best to replace the radiator 

[cruisermark]

Hi Martin

I have read of a very few cases of the failure you describe. I have had mine for 5 years without any suspension and gearbox problems. I would find a good example with full servce history and carry out some preventative maintenance such as radiator and you should be fine.

[The-Acre]

I agree with Mark, get a good one, replace the radiator as an insurance.  The suspension can fail on either model regardless of mileage. The transmission failure is still rare though, I wouldn't worry too much.  I'm not sure there's much you can do to prevent suspension problems, maybe buying one that has been garaged may help?

[mrdoofa]

Thanks for the advice so far, is there any way to check for the transmission fault? Roughly how much does it cost to replace the radiator? How good are the heated and cooled seats on the facelift cars?

These are a couple of examples I’m interested in:

https://www.autotrader.co.uk/classified/advert/201710180426272?postcode=ls211dg&make=LEXUS&model=LS 430&advertising-location=at_cars&sort=distance&onesearchad=Used&onesearchad=Nearly New&onesearchad=New&radius=1500&page=1

This one doesn’t have any photos yet

https://www.autotrader.co.uk/classified/advert/201711201416014?postcode=ls211dg&sort=distance&radius=1500&onesearchad=Used&onesearchad=Nearly New&onesearchad=New&advertising-location=at_cars&model=LS 430&make=LEXUS&page=1

[messi]

Well the first one is overpriced thats probably why it hasnt sold yet as it has been up for sale a while and looks very good, I remember early last year or was it the year before when I bought a 2004 ls430 with 176000 miles, I paid £2600 for it, and with that sort of millage I will assume the air suspension has been replaced like it was on the one I had.

[nickd]

1 hour ago, mrdoofa said:

Thanks for the advice so far, is there any way to check for the transmission fault? Roughly how much does it cost to replace the radiator? How good are the heated and cooled seats on the facelift cars?

These are a couple of examples I’m interested in:

https://www.autotrader.co.uk/classified/advert/201710180426272?postcode=ls211dg&make=LEXUS&model=LS 430&advertising-location=at_cars&sort=distance&onesearchad=Used&onesearchad=Nearly New&onesearchad=New&radius=1500&page=1

This one doesn’t have any photos yet

https://www.autotrader.co.uk/classified/advert/201711201416014?postcode=ls211dg&sort=distance&radius=1500&onesearchad=Used&onesearchad=Nearly New&onesearchad=New&advertising-location=at_cars&model=LS 430&make=LEXUS&page=1

For me the seats are very good.  The seat gets plenty hot enough and the cooling isn't quite as effective, however it does make a difference on a sweaty day!

[The-Acre]

I'm not sure how easy it would be to know if the transmission has been contaminated unless it felt like there was a fault.  Maybe oil deposits in the expansion tank.  Remember though, it is rare, although having been bitten by it I understand your concerns. I bought my radiator for less than £100, but it needed a slight modification.  A genuine Lexus one is about £350 and takes only an hour to replace, it's also a good opportunity to put in fresh coolant.

[39buss]

Another option could be......The oil cooler built into the radiator fails so you could retro fit an external after market oil cooler then there's no need to change the original radiator, just link the outlets at the bottom with suitable oil resistant "rubber" pipe and jubilee clips..

[cruisermark]

An aftermarket oil cooler solution is being advertised in the well known site.

[The-Acre]

I've done the oil cooler bit on my previous one, and compared to the ease of changing the radiator I wouldn't bother (unless I was planning on towing)

Here's a reminder of where the problem begins, corrosion and two O rings at the trans fluid union.

 

[GrahamG]

Lexus Guildford talked me out of replacing my radiator. They knew of four failures affecting the box and in two of those instances there was prior warning with the box functioning oddly. The trans was lost on two occasions

My driving seat has no heating; cooling yes, heating no, at 85,000 miles.

On the USA club site an owner observed, 'these cars may be bullet proof [engine and trans] but they can nickel and dime you to death'.

As of last night my telescopic steering is no longer working despite a new motor fitted recently.

I would buy another again and pay a premium for low miles and full Lexus service history as a second fun car but provided I had a reserve fund of at least £4,000.

 

 

 

 

 

 

[The-Acre]

1 hour ago, GrahamG said:

Lexus Guildford talked me out of replacing my radiator. They knew of four failures affecting the box and in two of those instances there was prior warning with the box functioning oddly. The trans was lost on two occasions

My driving seat has no heating; cooling yes, heating no, at 85,000 miles.

On the USA club site an owner observed, 'these cars may be bullet proof [engine and trans] but they can nickel and dime you to death'.

As of last night my telescopic steering is no longer working despite a new motor fitted recently.

I would buy another again and pay a premium for low miles and full Lexus service history as a second fun car but provided I had a reserve fund of at least £4,000.

 

 

 

 

 

 

That really makes so much sense, and of course it's common sense.  To run a luxury car and not expect to have to dig deep in your pocket from time to time would be daft.  The difference being that Lexus are so well built that those digging deep days may well be less than with most other makes.  I realise that it could change at any moment, but in my 9 years or so of LS ownership (400 & 430) my "unexpected" bills have only reached less than £1,000 in total.  One of those was starter motor failure, the other a height sensor.  In nine years I think that's brilliant.

[Malc]

4 hours ago, GrahamG said:

Lexus Guildford talked me out of replacing my radiator. They knew of four failures affecting the box

This doesn't make any sense at all from your point of view tbh .......  if it fails then Lexus earn a fortune repairing your car ....  or you write it off and buy another ..........  the radiator replacement cost £££  is comparative peanuts 

Malc

[Smoother]

9 hours ago, The-Acre said:

I'm not sure how easy it would be to know if the transmission has been contaminated unless it felt like there was a fault.  Maybe oil deposits in the expansion tank.  Remember though, it is rare, although having been bitten by it I understand your concerns. I bought my radiator for less than £100, but it needed a slight modification.  A genuine Lexus one is about £350 and takes only an hour to replace, it's also a good opportunity to put in fresh coolant.

Having recently done my timing belt, I replaced the rad too, one, because i knew it was leaking, and two because I read somewhere (US forum I think) that someone trashed his tranny when the cooler pipe corroded in the rad.  A very stupid design, and ineffective in my opinion; who cools something in something hot?  Is this the water problem you all are referring to?  BTW milky Tranny fluid is the clue for water I think.

Perfect time to add an external oil cooler.  I bought one from amazon for £28 and mounted it in front of the condenser.  I completely disconnected the tranny pipes from the rad internal cooler.  It gets the coolest air possible out there, and can NEVER get rad water in it. 

[The-Acre]

9 minutes ago, Smoother said:

Having recently done my timing belt, I replaced the rad too, one, because i knew it was leaking, and two because I read somewhere (US forum I think) that someone trashed his tranny when the cooler pipe corroded in the rad.  A very stupid design, and ineffective in my opinion; who cools something in something hot?  Is this the water problem you all are referring to?  BTW milky Tranny fluid is the clue for water I think.

Perfect time to add an external oil cooler.  I bought one from Amazon for £28 and mounted it in front of the condenser.  I completely disconnected the tranny pipes from the rad internal cooler.  It gets the coolest air possible out there, and can NEVER get rad water in it. 

I understand your point, but the transmission functions at its best when it's at the correct temperature, which I'm assuming Lexus engineers took into account.  I found my cooler got very, very hot in traffic as it wasn't cooled enough by the fans, if at all.  

[Smoother]

1 hour ago, The-Acre said:

I understand your point, but the transmission functions at its best when it's at the correct temperature, which I'm assuming Lexus engineers took into account.  I found my cooler got very, very hot in traffic as it wasn't cooled enough by the fans, if at all.  

Yes, I've wondered about this, too.  Here are my thoughts:

---

Heat is the biggest killer of tranny fluid, by far

Hot fluid will trash your tranny

Trannys work right after start up even on freezing mornings, although they wont shift into top until a certain temp is reached. (i'm not sure where this is measured)

The rate of flow from the tranny to the cooler is rpm dependent only, regardless of temp. And the temp in the rad, once up to temp is pretty constant but a hot constant.

Trannys on these cars are expensive, and the labour's no picnic.

External tranny coolers exist, and are recommended when towing or hauling loads. My american motorhome has one and americans know auto trannys

Tranny fluid can heat up something like 15 deg. a second when the torque converter is not locked

Toyota tranny fluid is insanely expensive, and I used about 15 ltrs when I did mine.

---

As for assuming Lexus engineers always know best, is a risk.  Look at all the check engine VSC, etc, air struts,etc issues.  After all they aren't that concerned once the car is out of warrantee. So an inexpensive in-rad cooler pipe will do for the warranty.  But us high mile 5th, 6th, and 7th owners are our own warranty department.  And if they really did know best, why does every motoring journalist complain about the horrible constant whine in the CVT transmission cars?  How hard would it have been to add a "simulated shift change" button and programme to make people feel comfortable with the engine noise (BTW I had a friend in the 70's with a CVT Daf.  It was weird listening to the tranny spin up to optimum rpm then sit there while the speed of the car changed. OK for a 70's econo box, not cool on millennial luxury cars).  And don't get me started on the corroded A/C pipes to the back seat of EVERY ultra (is it ultra?) model LS.  Lexus engineers "Know best" my arse (no offense to you @The-Acre ) I just haven't drunk the kool aid about engineering prowess.

Yes I agree at stand still ( the only practical time to put your hand on an external cooler) it can feel hot, but is that bad?  Its hot, yes, and its passing through ambient temp. air, which is always cooler that coolant, except for the first five minutes after a cold start.  Also the cooler has many layers of pipe while the cooler in the rad is, i think, just a straight pipe.  But even if its more complex than that, it stall cant physically lower the trans fluid temp to below coolant temp.  And that heat you feel is actually the fluid cooling, and heating the air around the cooler, so even with no wind, cooling is being done.

Having said all that, I will take your comment to heart and look up if its bad to JUST use an external cooler, and report back.

BTW what is the correct temp for tranny fluid.  We all agree that too hot is bad, is too cold bad as well?  It can't burn from being cold, that's for sure.

Just did a quick Google and this was the first thing that came up:

"Heat and age are mainly what causes transmission fluid to degrade, and this only leads to more overheating. The ideal range for fluid temperature is between 175 and 225 degrees, and every 20 degree drop in fluid temperature can help to double the life of your transmission."

Just looked at some tranny forums, and from what I can see, the only danger of "too cool" fluid is sluggish shifting.  This is not dangerous, and is easily detected.  Some contributors said it would only be a problem where ambient is significantly low, e.g Canada in the winter.  Solution. put a sheet of card board over the cooler in the winter if sluggishness detected.  I'm  happy with that.  AND, nothing I have done cannot be reversed in an hour or less.

When I find my IR thermometer i'll scan incoming and outgoing temps to see the differential with low/negligible air flow and note the ambient too.

[Smoother]

Speaking of radiator costs, I bought a new chinese one on FleaBay for £30 !! It wasn't 100% correct so I asked if they had the correct one (with the nipple on the top right, going to the expansion bottle)  they said no, but if you keep that one we'll give you 50% off.  I lengthened the tubing to reach the nipple under the radiator cap, then I modified that cap so that its always open to the tank but not the atmosphere, which mimics the factory plumbing.  Hey presto new rad for an LS for £15.   + £4.65 for some extra tubing 

.FYI the cap on the expansion bottle is a fully functioning radiator cap, so overpressure scenarios are handled there as per factory.  As far as I can see, the one on the rad is just there so you can fill the system, and needs no pressures relief functions, only sealing.  But I could be wrong.

[The-Acre]

2 hours ago, Smoother said:

Speaking of radiator costs, I bought a new chinese one on FleaBay for £30 !! It wasn't 100% correct so I asked if they had the correct one (with the nipple on the top right, going to the expansion bottle)  they said no, but if you keep that one we'll give you 50% off.  I lengthened the tubing to reach the nipple under the radiator cap, then I modified that cap so that its always open to the tank but not the atmosphere, which mimics the factory plumbing.  Hey presto new rad for an LS for £15.   + £4.65 for some extra tubing 

.FYI the cap on the expansion bottle is a fully functioning radiator cap, so overpressure scenarios are handled there as per factory.  As far as I can see, the one on the rad is just there so you can fill the system, and needs no pressures relief functions, only sealing.  But I could be wrong.

That's more or less what I did with mine and it works a treat.

[Smoother]

19 minutes ago, The-Acre said:

That's more or less what I did with mine and it works a treat.

That's really good to know.  One always second guesses these jury rigged mods, imagining destroyed engines, roadside breakdowns, etc, all because of one minor condition, one didn't anticipate.  WOW, I'm feeling like an engineer already. 

[mrdoofa]

Just spotted this for sale, what does everybody think?

https://www.autotrader.co.uk/classified/advert/201711201416014?make=LEXUS&model=LS 430&advertising-location=at_cars&radius=1501&postcode=ls211dg&onesearchad=Used&onesearchad=Nearly New&onesearchad=New&sort=sponsored&page=1

[JIM PIKE]

Hi Martin 

Looks very nice, the ad says £4500    the screen price says £4000  so you know where to start negotiations from don't you.

Jim

[messi]

That was £4000 for past few days, not sure why the price has gone up.

[mrdoofa]

I’ve been in touch with the seller of the £4,500 one. He said he only has service history from last owner which is 2 stamps, no bills or receipts, the steering wheel adjust doesn’t move in any direction although he said you can hear the motor running, no evidence of cambelt change and it’s at 107k.

I’ve seen this pre facelift one on eBay, they say the steering goes in and out and rear sub weak but everything else works apparently!!! It’s bidding at £1,300 reserve not met and told me he wants offers over £2,100. What are your thoughts on this?

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/lexus-LS430-Full-service-history-with-22-service-stamps-lots-of-invoices/132420492602?hash=item1ed4e05d3a:g:O~kAAOSwYVlaItst

[ambermarine]

The description matches the pics and the history speaks for itself the issue I have is the best as been had from this car and 153k is a lump of miles the upholstery is well used and looks less than tight.

Would imagine the bushes and the like around the suspension will if not already done require attention shortly.

At £2k it would be a decent buy but thats about all, expect to spend money in the next 20k miles