GS 300h rattling at startup

[arkviz]

Did someone experienced rattling sounds from engine at startup? I do occasionally. It is similar to rattling when You want to put manual transmission in gear without using clutch. It lasts 2-3 seconds and engine is running normal. I can't measure it, but after this "hard startup" engine runs noticeably smoother.  Problem is this happen not every time. It occurred few times last week. Before it didn't.

[arkviz]

Nobody has an idea? I am going to visit dealer within a week, but i don't hope it will solve anything.

[NemesisUK]

Loose heat shield around the exhaust manifold?

[arkviz]

Maybe... I was searching across internet and have found video with similar symptoms:

https://youtu.be/21o6PcGFH7w?t=34s

[capese21]

On 19/11/2017 at 7:37 AM, arkviz said:

Did someone experienced rattling sounds from engine at startup?

My GS300H does similar on a cold start. Sounds like oil has drained from the top of the engine & takes 2 seconds to be pumped back. Hydraulic tappets?? 

I hadn't until now though much about it.   I will have to mention it to the dealer. 

Ed

[arkviz]

Running engine without oil can make a big damage to it. For me any irregular noise is suspicious. Do You have also this type of drone? It was filmed inside my car about year ago.

 

[Zotto]

While last noise you recorded is coming probably fro exhaust, the 1st noise is something related with oil: have you put the recommended oil 0W-20 in engine? If not, and you have a different one (5 or 10W) it takes some time to well circulate. You should notice more with low temperatures.

[capese21]

2 hours ago, arkviz said:

Do You have also this type of drone? It was filmed inside my car about year ago.

No noise on my GS other than a 1 second rattle on the engine when cold starting. I am fairly certain is normal for a car with hydraulic tappets.

Smooth & quiet at all other times.   

 

Ed.

[Hangie]

In recent years quite a lot manufactures got problems with variable timing actuators. My previous Accord got it and previous GS generation also got problem with it sometimes. Maybe it is back in GS300h too.

In Accord it was just the sound and wasn't affecting engine at least not in short/mid term. I've done like 40k miles with it.

[arkviz]

40k miles is a almost new car... I had 1995 Honda Civic 1.4i. I've sold it in 2004, because it was old and slow, 325000km on ODO...Since then I've purchased 5 new cars but only one was 100% problem free - 2007 BMW 325xi.

[Hangie]

Your Civic 1.4i was very simple. In my family there is still Honda Legend from 2001 which is closing to the 500k km/300k miles. It is also very simple engine which just run.

Newer constructions are just much more complicated and things like that just happens.

[arkviz]

8 hours ago, Hangie said:

Your Civic 1.4i was very simple. In my family there is still Honda Legend from 2001 which is closing to the 500k km/300k miles. It is also very simple engine which just run.

Newer constructions are just much more complicated and things like that just happens.

The biggest conceptional difference between Honda D14A and Toyota 2AR-FSE is fuel injection. Toyota has beside indirect port additional DI. The next is valve train, Toyota has double, Honda had Single. Otherwise, both engines are Quite Simple. Turbocharged 8AR-FTS is far more Complicated. This was one of crucial factors for choosing Lexus, NA engine, Simple and reliable technology. But it looks I've missed something.

[capese21]

Quote

http://www.rav4world.com/forums/126-4-4-mechanical/109745-1-second-valve-rattle-cold-start-4.html#post2050553

 

Toyota 2AR engines from a another forum discussing noisy engine starting.

Quote

The first type is a 1 second start-up rattle caused by general "looseness" in the valve-train system before the oil reaches its normal pressure. It's not catastrophic and does not require an intervention. One can argue that it's not good for the engine longevity, but there really isn't much you (and the dealer) can do about it. Considering that the 2AR / 1AR engine family has been around for a while (since 2008) and in general has proven to be fairly reliable and durable, the best you can do is to just ignore it. Replacing VVT actuators may reduce the problem but it won't eliminate it completely and the rattle will come back.

The second type of rattle indicates a problem in the VVT system. The VVT actuators are designed to return to a "home" position when the engine is shut down and held in place with a pin until oil pressure has reached it's normal value and the VVT actuators can operate as designed. However, sometimes the locking pin gets stuck and does not hold the VVT actuator in the right position upon start-up. When this happens you can hear a loud rattle and the engine shakes violently because the valves are out of timing. The rattle and shaking usually stop after a second or two, but sometimes you have to turn the engine off and restart it.

 

[arkviz]

I would say it was type 2 rattle. I thought my engine is going apart.

[capese21]

6 minutes ago, arkviz said:

I would say it was type 2 rattle. I thought my engine is going apart.

My GS does as in the video occasionally.  Thin oil imho.

 

 

[Britprius]

If the  noise bothers you a relatively cheap cure that will also help with engine longevity is a prelube system. This pressurizes the complete engine lubrication system before the engine is turned over for starting. I have fitted a system to my GS450H, and this has completely eliminated the rattle.

John. 

[arkviz]

22 minutes ago, Britprius said:

If the  noise bothers you a relatively cheap cure that will also help with engine longevity is a prelube system. This pressurizes the complete engine lubrication system before the engine is turned over for starting. I have fitted a system to my GS450H, and this has completely eliminated the rattle.

John. 

Hi John,

i believe it works, but i would like to avoid any mods at least until my car is under warranty. Let's wait for dealers conclusion.

[Hangie]

My accord with faulty VTC/VVT accuator pin was making  following noise:

 

If yours is longer that few sec it is not low pressure oil fault.

 

 

[arkviz]

Problem is also, it didn't rattled since i reserved a visit at dealer.

[alexchrisro]

On 11/26/2017 at 2:51 PM, Britprius said:

If the  noise bothers you a relatively cheap cure that will also help with engine longevity is a prelube system. This pressurizes the complete engine lubrication system before the engine is turned over for starting. I have fitted a system to my GS450H, and this has completely eliminated the rattle.

John. 

Hello John, can you give more details about this prelube system, how to fit it, where it can be found?

 

Thank you

[Britprius]

11 hours ago, alexchrisro said:

Hello John, can you give more details about this prelube system, how to fit it, where it can be found?

 

Thank you

I made up my own system, but off the shelf systems are available. Linked below is a system from the US that shows just how simple it is. I have found them on eBay UK for circa £100, but one can be built from ready available parts for less than £50.

The oil take off and return is simply a "T" piece inserted in the oil pressure switch take off point next to the oil filter. This can be seen on the GS450H down below the front of the radiator. The flexible oil tube can be a grease gun tube. These cost around £2, and have the correct 1/4 inch BSP threaded ends ready fitted and are safe to use with oil at over 5000 PSI "the car lube system runs at about 50 PSI". A 12 volt oil control solenoid almost completes the system except for a suitable oil container capable of holding oil at around 50 PSI , and a timing devise to turn off the solenoid after the engine has started. All components can be mounted in the ample space in front of the radiator in close proximity of the oil pressure switch

When you go to ready mode the solenoid is turned on to open it releasing the oil under pressure round the engine before the engine starts. On the Toyota/Lexus hybrids there is a normal delay after going to ready before the engine starts. In this time the oil circulates round the engine from the oil stored under pressure in the container. When the engine starts the solenoid is turned off and as the oil pressure rises oil is returned to the container back through the solenoid valve as these work as one way valves allowing oil to flow back into the bottom of the container under pressure compressing the air above the oil. ready for the next restart.

The system requires some extra oil depending on the size of container held in reserve in the container under pressure. The oil is only transferred into the engine at prestart, and is then returned to the container after the engine is running at full oil pressure.

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Auto-Engine-Lube-Pre-Lube-Oiler-Tank/222645149806?hash=item33d6af606e:g:BQwAAOSw-RRXBrTm

John

[alexchrisro]

Thank you John for the details.

[Guy63]

I bought one of these products from the states and can honestly say I’ve been well and truly ripped off! The system was missing all of the clamps and the controller along with associated fittings. I’ve sent the fella loads of emails with no response! To make matters worse it cost me £110.00 in customs duty and VAT!!  Not a happy bunny at the moment.

[PCM]

eBay, Credit card, PayPal  - raise a claim? 

[Britprius]

The aim of my post was to show how the startup rattle can be removed along with reducing engine startup ware without going to much expense. In fact the system I built cost less than £20.
A little thought could probably reduce this further.
The system could also prevent complete engine destruction if in the case scenario of the cam sprocket bolts coming adrift or the timing chain breaking.

John.