Parking tickets

Bluesman · March 20, 2018

3 hours ago, Linas.P said:

Job to invent offences - from where I look at it, they are just criminal with the license by another name. Committing the crime, be that by fraud or ticketing wrong car or in ambiguous situation - yes it is disgusting, such criminal activity is not the job.

It would be fair to note and I am guilty for not clearly pointing it out, that it is not the actual people who are disgusting, but probably their employees by creating such positions and working environment where they directly set them to penalise and harm. There is no other way about it - how on earth parking warden can have quota to meet? What if there are no parking offences, what if all cars are parked correctly - those guys are under pressure to invent offences, that is literally in their contract and you saying there is nothing fundamentally wrong with it?

It could ANRP on the car, but it changes nothing if it is still inventing the offences.

As situation described above by both @Britprius and @Bluesman - how did parking warden helped exactly? Both of those guys came and the place was taken by unauthorised driver, sticking the ticked helps nobody - most useless job ever, if the car would be swiftly towed away that would be usefull. Secondly, I wanted to point out that drivers are under terrible pressure finding parking spaces as council did everything to destroy every single one of them and very often you have very good reason to be where you are with car and simply have no space in 5 miles to park, even if you are willing to pay fair fee for it. So the issue is lack of parking spaces, fundamental under sight of (or deliberate act to destroy the) infrastructure. This in turn leaves driver with no option, but to park "somewhere" and than in turn leaves people with disabilities with no space. The ultimate culprit is lack of infrastructure, but it made to look like the issue are the drivers.

Your right about not being enough disabled spaces and you may have noticed that in lots of motorway services they are taking away disabled bays and turning them into electric car charging points, thank you Tesla. I saw a guy sweeping up around the disabled bays and I asked him how many cars a week use the charging points and he said he had only ever seen 2 cars since the bays were put there which was around 10 weeks.

Britprius · March 20, 2018

The nearest charging points in my area are at a supermarket at Church Stoke "about 10 miles away", and the last time I was there there were two charging bays with large notices in front of them stating they were for electric vehicles only.

Both bays were taken up one with a Fiesta the other with a Golf neither of them modified to run on electricity.. There were perhaps 30 or more empty normal parking places in the immediate area. I parked behind both vehicles blocking them in. I connected the Nissan Leaf I was using to one of the charging points and went to do my shopping, and have breakfast in the store.

On returning to the car about an hour later there were two annoyed "to say the least" young drivers balling and shouting at me. At that point the store manager arrived having been monitoring the situation on CCTV. The manager pointed out the large signs directly in front of there windscreens, and the empty parking spaces also explaining that without charging my car I could go no further, and had no alternative but to block there exit. He also said they would have a reason for complaint if a row of electric cars were blocking access to the petrol pumps so they could not fill up. Then he went on to say they were lucky not to have received parking penalty notices.

In conversation with the manager after moving my car he said he would have done the same thing in the situation.

John.

Linas.P · March 20, 2018

I have never said there are not enough disabled spaces, what I said is that parking should work for everyone, be that disabled, not disabled, EV driver, ICE driver etc. I see your point about lazy drivers when visiting local Tesco megastore with probably 3000 free spaces and over 200 disabled bays, clearly there are enough parking spaces for everyone and people still parks in disable spaces, but at the same time near local post office there are 8 bays and all 8 for blue badge holders only - quite clearly that is not going to work and one doesn't need to be genius to understand that. Same story in University where I used to study ~600 spaces for staff and blue badge holders only, I have only ever seen maybe 200 cars parked there and another 400 spaces completely empty.. As the course representative for 3 years I know exactly how many disabled (who drive) students there were on the campus - 2...

On average British motorists spends £1500 per year on motoring related taxes (~£28-32bn each ear for last last decade) and therefore I believe there should be place for everyone as all of us have paid their fair share to the public purse. I don't even need to mention that as a student have spent £9000/year and didn't even have where to park... so discrimination goes both ways

rayaans · March 20, 2018

5 hours ago, Britprius said:

The nearest charging points in my area are at a supermarket at Church Stoke "about 10 miles away", and the last time I was there there were two charging bays with large notices in front of them stating they were for electric vehicles only.

Both bays were taken up one with a Fiesta the other with a Golf neither of them modified to run on electricity.. There were perhaps 30 or more empty normal parking places in the immediate area. I parked behind both vehicles blocking them in. I connected the Nissan Leaf I was using to one of the charging points and went to do my shopping, and have breakfast in the store.

On returning to the car about an hour later there were two annoyed "to say the least" young drivers balling and shouting at me. At that point the store manager arrived having been monitoring the situation on CCTV. The manager pointed out the large signs directly in front of there windscreens, and the empty parking spaces also explaining that without charging my car I could go no further, and had no alternative but to block there exit. He also said they would have a reason for complaint if a row of electric cars were blocking access to the petrol pumps so they could not fill up. Then he went on to say they were lucky not to have received parking penalty notices.

In conversation with the manager after moving my car he said he would have done the same thing in the situation.

John.

This is what I don't get though

"lucky not to have received parking penalty notices" - in my view thats daft. Just give them one, no ifs and no buts. Then next time they'll think twice about doing it.

I think the government needs to give more power to supermarkets atleast and allow them to give parking notices. The amount of non-disabled drivers using disabled bays, single occupants using child and parents bays etc etc is quite amazing tbh

malcolmw · March 20, 2018

A bit tongue in cheek but...

With the LC500, the doors are so long and thick that I am unable to get in if anyone parks even a typical distance away from my driver's door. It needs about a 2 foot clearance distance at least. Would it be OK if I park in the mother and child spaces just so I can get in and out? The car is "my baby" after all.

I recently used a Park and Ride and parked many bays away from everyone else and right on the line to the left of the space to give myself maximum room. On my return a minicab was parked next to me (what he was doing in a P&R is anyone's guess) and I could just about get aboard.

This is a genuine issue meaning you need to plan ahead or just park across 2 spaces and look like a right ****. I wouldn't mind paying for 2 spaces if it comes to it.

I know this is a bit of a "first world problem".

Linas.P · March 20, 2018

It is not first world problem @malcolmw - it is just UK where parking spaces are ridiculously small and substandard. Officially, by governments own standards, public parking spaces should be 4.8 x 2.4 metres... now show me the space which meets this standard (yes I know spaces on private land are except). In US you would be able to park your LC sideways and still have space to spare... obviously joke, but average space there is like 6x4 meters.

Whereas I do not defend drivers parking in disabled bays, it is real concern for some, because their cars literally doesn't fit in the bay and we can say whatever we want - cars being over sized nowadays etc. if one is allowed to buy the car this big and drive with B license, one should be able to park it as well. I didn't realise that before, but try to park say Audi Q7 in standard bay - both rear and front overhangs by at least 35cm and it comes literally from one line to another. Where do you find most of these cars parked (Q7s, X5s, GLs, RRs)... yes in disabled and family bays? Unfair? sure, but there are no other suitable spaces...

On the flip side I have seen motorbike parked in family spot.... really?

Again not defending anyone, but parking should work for all, not just some - we pay enough for that to be solved... by council, by government and supermarkets.

1 hour ago, rayaans said:

I think the government needs to give more power to supermarkets atleast and allow them to give parking notices. The amount of non-disabled drivers using disabled bays, single occupants using child and parents bays etc etc is quite amazing tbh

I disagree with you here - supermarkets have all the rights necessary to enforce the parking order based on the same laws as say ParkingEye operates - parking on private land. However, parking in "family" spaces cannot be enforced as it is lets say "good will" thing, there are no legal qualification by which you are qualified to park there or not qualified (not like blue badge for disabled). Obviously, again it all comes to implied contract which must be clearly displayed e.g. that to qualify you need to be adult + under 12y old, but in reality it is impossible to prove this as anyone can claim one of the passengers was 12y old e.g. - "yes I was picking-up my friend with baby". There is no way supermarket would be able to enforce this as it would ultimately fail in court.

Bluesman · March 20, 2018

2 hours ago, Linas.P said:

It is not first world problem @malcolmw - it is just UK where parking spaces are ridiculously small and substandard. Officially, by governments own standards, public parking spaces should be 4.8 x 2.4 metres... now show me the space which meets this standard (yes I know spaces on private land are except). In US you would be able to park your LC sideways and still have space to spare... obviously joke, but average space there is like 6x4 meters.

Whereas I do not defend drivers parking in disabled bays, it is real concern for some, because their cars literally doesn't fit in the bay and we can say whatever we want - cars being over sized nowadays etc. if one is allowed to buy the car this big and drive with B license, one should be able to park it as well. I didn't realise that before, but try to park say Audi Q7 in standard bay - both rear and front overhangs by at least 35cm and it comes literally from one line to another. Where do you find most of these cars parked (Q7s, X5s, GLs, RRs)... yes in disabled and family bays? Unfair? sure, but there are no other suitable spaces...

On the flip side I have seen motorbike parked in family spot.... really?

Again not defending anyone, but parking should work for all, not just some - we pay enough for that to be solved... by council, by government and supermarkets.

I disagree with you here - supermarkets have all the rights necessary to enforce the parking order based on the same laws as say ParkingEye operates - parking on private land. However, parking in "family" spaces cannot be enforced as it is lets say "good will" thing, there are no legal qualification by which you are qualified to park there or not qualified (not like blue badge for disabled). Obviously, again it all comes to implied contract which must be clearly displayed e.g. that to qualify you need to be adult + under 12y old, but in reality it is impossible to prove this as anyone can claim one of the passengers was 12y old e.g. - "yes I was picking-up my friend with baby". There is no way supermarket would be able to enforce this as it would ultimately fail in court.

16

There can never be any excuse for taking a disabled without a blue badge. To all the poor souls with cars as big as tanks, try parking right over the back of the car park there is always enough room there to park a fleet of buses. I would love to be able to park my car over there but then I wouldn't be able to get around the supermarket because of the long walk from where the car is parked and the long walk back but to any able-bodied driver it's no problem at all unless they have lazyitis.

Bluesman · March 20, 2018

3 hours ago, malcolmw said:

A bit tongue in cheek but...

With the LC500, the doors are so long and thick that I am unable to get in if anyone parks even a typical distance away from my driver's door. It needs about a 2 foot clearance distance at least. Would it be OK if I park in the mother and child spaces just so I can get in and out? The car is "my baby" after all.

I recently used a Park and Ride and parked many bays away from everyone else and right on the line to the left of the space to give myself maximum room. On my return a minicab was parked next to me (what he was doing in a P&R is anyone's guess) and I could just about get aboard.

This is a genuine issue meaning you need to plan ahead or just park across 2 spaces and look like a right ****. I wouldn't mind paying for 2 spaces if it comes to it.

I know this is a bit of a "first world problem".

Whats wrong with parking over the back of the car park where no one goes? You could find the end of a line of spaces over there and make sure you park it at the end with your drivers door with no one able to park next to it.

floggit · March 20, 2018

Since owning my black ct, i just find parking requires a little more thought. My local mall parking has several spaces on their own, so if i head into town i get there early. At work i park next to guys who think the same with nice cars. In an area i dont know its a little harder but usually can find a spot im happy with or just walk a bit further. Always park on the end of a row and next to the passenger side if poss that way your 50/50 theres only a driver. I dont do door dents lol. Drives the mrs crazy looking for a space im happy with. Can appriciate two door cars are longer and need more space. It can be done,

Linas.P · March 20, 2018

14 minutes ago, Bluesman said:

There can never be any excuse for taking a disabled without a blue badge. To all the poor souls with cars as big as tanks, try parking right over the back of the car park there is always enough room there to park a fleet of buses. I would love to be able to park my car over there but then I wouldn't be able to get around the supermarket because of the long walk from where the car is parked and the long walk back but to any able-bodied driver it's no problem at all unless they have lazyitis.

I never said that is an excuse, what I am saying is that whoever designs the parking spaces takes no consideration for increasing size of cars. Take for example same Tesco - 3000 parking spaces, the next massive Tesco is like 5 miles away, massive Asda just around the corner all with 1000's of parking spaces and almost never even half full. Yet all the spaces are drown based probably on mini minors and cortina dimensions. So maybe add 20 cm more width to the space and have 2500 spaces instead of 3000?

In summary you are talking about the result, I am talking about the cause. When somebody going to address the cause, there will be no need to address the results, but if we going to continue addressing the results then it will go on forever. That is brings us back to OP - many parking spaces are deliberately made substandard, not marked correctly to cause the issues, so that Councils or private companies can collect the fees, fines, charges etc. It is great that there are people like @floggit who checks their shenanigans and makes them accountable.

Bluesman · March 21, 2018

2 hours ago, Linas.P said:

I never said that is an excuse, what I am saying is that whoever designs the parking spaces takes no consideration for increasing size of cars. Take for example same Tesco - 3000 parking spaces, the next massive Tesco is like 5 miles away, massive Asda just around the corner all with 1000's of parking spaces and almost never even half full. Yet all the spaces are drown based probably on mini minors and cortina dimensions. So maybe add 20 cm more width to the space and have 2500 spaces instead of 3000?

In summary you are talking about the result, I am talking about the cause. When somebody going to address the cause, there will be no need to address the results, but if we going to continue addressing the results then it will go on forever. That is brings us back to OP - many parking spaces are deliberately made substandard, not marked correctly to cause the issues, so that Councils or private companies can collect the fees, fines, charges etc. It is great that there are people like @floggit who checks their shenanigans and makes them accountable.

Q7s, X5s, GLs, RRs)... yes in disabled and family bays? Unfair? sure, but there are no other suitable spaces... It sounds like an excuse to use disabled bays and family and child places because of the size of car they have brought.

Why can't these people with huge cars park over the back of the car parks where it is very rare you will find anyone else is parking. Good to find an end bay where you can park so no one can park next to your drivers door, so you can get in and out with no problem. There are always answers to these problems without being antisocial and law-breaking by blocking disabled bays.

NemesisUK · March 21, 2018

I don't have a huge car but it does have very wide doors...

I park at the back of the car park and I unashamedly park across two spaces, at the end of the row or between lamp bollards etc..

If it's a pay and display, I buy two tickets...

dutchie01 · March 21, 2018

Some things you just dont do and one of them is occupying a disabled parking whyen you are not entitled to. You just dont.

There are no arguments to justify that, has to do with decency, upbringing, caring for each other.

in the 40 odd years i am on the road i propably have seen traffic quadruple to an extent that trafficjams and lack of parkingspaces are daily practice. There are just too many cars especially in city centers that were designed before the car was even invented. Fact is that we have to live with that so sometimes if you want to go to for instance a postoffice and there is no parking in front of you will have to park 200 meters further. Complicated?

Seems like a theoretical discussion anyhow as very soon large cities will push all vehicles out of their inner centres unless electric.

But parking on a disabled place? no, just no.

Linas.P · March 21, 2018

Nobody is trying to justify parking in disabled spaces here, however as in saying "treat the disease, not the symptom" - ignorance and lack of understanding about the problems helps nobody either. Disabled spaces are just one of many types of spaces which gets abused or being used as an abuse - the solution is to find the balance. Until then however we all need to be aware of our rights and laws in case we going to get some illegal charge (which is now increasingly common), so that we can defend ourselves.

Bluesman · March 21, 2018

2 hours ago, Linas.P said:

Nobody is trying to justify parking in disabled spaces here, however as in saying "treat the disease, not the symptom" - ignorance and lack of understanding about the problems helps nobody either. Disabled spaces are just one of many types of spaces which gets abused or being used as an abuse - the solution is to find the balance. Until then however we all need to be aware of our rights and laws in case we going to get some illegal charge (which is now increasingly common), so that we can defend ourselves.

"treat the disease, not the symptom"It's illegal what more does anyone need to know.

Rabbers · March 21, 2018

22 hours ago, malcolmw said:

....With the LC500, the doors are so long and thick that I am unable to get in if anyone parks even a typical distance away from my driver's door.....

and

16 hours ago, NemesisUK said:

....I don't have a huge car but it does have very wide doors...

Much to the satisfaction of its customers, the supermarket where I habitually shop, like others in the same chain, has made its parking spaces wider,

not by increasing the individual areas but by adding a 45cm-wide "no-man's" strip between each. Problems related to long and thick coupé doors and

the fear of potentially clumsy neighbours are therefore significantly lessened. The extra distance not unexpectedly encourages people to steer their

trolleys between cars despite the presence of dedicated trolley-lanes at 8-car intervals, but the increased risk of scratches can be avoided if you park

along the car-park's walled perimeter. Clearly the supermarket considers reduced total parking capacity less important than customer-friendliness,

which would never be the case with commercially-run equivalents. The intent also extends to polite attendants who double as security guards, which

is another comparative rarity in respect of public car-parks where surliness usually prevails.

Malc · March 21, 2018

and as is sometimes the case, when I find zero empty disabled spaces in which to park ( I have a blue badge ) I do sometimes park in the myriad empty parent child spaces closer to the supermarket entrance.

I defy just one parent with child to berate me for parking in their space, I'll bop them one with my walking stick

Malc

dutchie01 · March 21, 2018

5 hours ago, Bluesman said:

"treat the disease, not the symptom"It's illegal what more does anyone need to know.

Not sure how this is dealt with in the UK but in The Netherlands it is a 100 ( well, 90)% chance youre in trouble. It is illegal and treated as a big offence. Police will not have a blind eye to this and the tow truck will be ordered. Your car will be town away to a police parking outside the city. You can get your car back after paying the tow costs, hourly rent of the police carpark and the ticket itself. All this can add up to 800 euro.

As said higher up the thread innercities are now patroled by cameracars that just make their rounds and will automatically call the tow truck..

malcolmw · March 21, 2018

43 minutes ago, Malc said:

and as is sometimes the case, when I find zero empty disabled spaces in which to park ( I have a blue badge ) I do sometimes park in the myriad empty parent child spaces closer to the supermarket entrance.

I defy just one parent with child to berate me for parking in their space, I'll bop them one with my walking stick

Malc

My now deceased wife was very severely disabled by MS. I also used the parent and child spaces if the disabled ones were full and occasionally received dirty looks from the parents with their little darlings.

BTW, why are parent and child spaces next to the entrance doors to stores? These people are capable of walking.

18 hours ago, Bluesman said:

Why can't these people with huge cars park over the back of the car parks where it is very rare you will find anyone else is parking. Good to find an end bay where you can park so no one can park next to your drivers door, so you can get in and out with no problem.

I don't know what supermarkets you use but mine have full car parks and you have to wait for someone to leave before the barrier lets you in.

NemesisUK · March 21, 2018

6 minutes ago, malcolmw said:

BTW, why are parent and child spaces next to the entrance doors to stores? These people are capable of walking.

Probably to reduce the chance of the "little darlings" running into the path of a car looking for a parking space...

Bluesman · March 21, 2018

17 minutes ago, dutchie01 said:

Not sure how this is dealt with in the UK but in The Netherlands it is a 100 ( well, 90)% chance youre in trouble. It is illegal and treated as a big offence. Police will not have a blind eye to this and the tow truck will be ordered. Your car will be town away to a police parking outside the city. You can get your car back after paying the tow costs, hourly rent of the police carpark and the ticket itself. All this can add up to 800 euro.

As said higher up the thread innercities are now patroled by cameracars that just make their rounds and will automatically call the tow truck..

Music to my ears. They do the same in the States where it can cost you in excess of $2000 to get your car back. We are just too soft in the UK, they can fine you £1000 plus court costs which normally are well in excess of any fine they might give you. Magistrates can also ban you from driving which rarely ever happens. If caught and fined in excess of £1000 plus a driving ban the problem might stop overnight.

Linas.P · March 21, 2018

9 hours ago, Bluesman said:

"treat the disease, not the symptom"It's illegal what more does anyone need to know.

Law is just an arbitrary rule made by the person or group of people - law doesn't mean it is correct or right. There were laws like - "black people are not allowed to use public transport". So you are saying that law is absolute and unquestionable? What if the law would be that every person owning the car should be castrated - would you support that as well? It is law isn't it?

You not trying to think outside of the box and just continue ignoring the real problem - goverment doesn't do enough to create suitable infrastructure. Government needs complete their responsibilities before asking people to follow the rules - quite simple. And I am not trying to say that solution is necessary to make more parking spaces, improving public transport, supporting flexible/distance working, supporting 24/7 economy. We can even look for example abroad - there are cities where public transport is free... so it can be done, just somebody needs to get on with it.

As well contrary to your thinking the size of the fine makes no difference - there are multiple studies done (many relating to death penalty) and all concluded that ultimately there is no correlation between how harsh is the punishment and likelihood of the crime. However, there is direct negative correlation between likelihood of being penalised and likelihood of the crime. In layman's terms you can make parking punishable by death, but if likelihood of punishment is going to be 1 in a million irt won't deter from the crime. But if you give £10 fine to every single offender it is going to be very effective. here.... back to my original point - before penalising anyone goverment first of all should do it's part in providing infrastructure.

Linas.P · March 21, 2018

5 hours ago, Malc said:

and as is sometimes the case, when I find zero empty disabled spaces in which to park ( I have a blue badge ) I do sometimes park in the myriad empty parent child spaces closer to the supermarket entrance.

But based on the opinion above that is illegal as well. Would @Bluesman support much harsher fines for disabled people parking in "parent + child" place? I doubt it, I wouldn't support it..

The fact is that every single one of us, me, any person on this planet will look at the thing from their own perspective. Disabled will always want more spaces for themselves, parents with kids for them, cyclist will always want more cycling lanes and drivers will always want streets with less traffic. The answer is balance.

What tells me that there is the problem is the fact that since 1972 (graph is from 88, but there are archived versions of same graph from 72) government only spent ~ 20% of taxes raised from motorists back on the road infrastructure. 80% disappeared somewhere.. and the problem is not too many cars, not bad drivers, but the infrastructure which is 50 years outdated (at least).

https://www.racfoundation.org/data/road-user-taxation-highways-spending-data-chart

NemesisUK · March 21, 2018

An interesting read ...

https://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/showthread.php?44553-Disabled-Bays-in-retail-parks-Are-they-legally-enforceable

Bluesman · March 22, 2018

2 hours ago, Linas.P said:

But based on the opinion above that is illegal as well. Would @Bluesman support much harsher fines for disabled people parking in "parent + child" place? I doubt it, I wouldn't support it..

The fact is that every single one of us, me, any person on this planet will look at the thing from their own perspective. Disabled will always want more spaces for themselves, parents with kids for them, cyclist will always want more cycling lanes and drivers will always want streets with less traffic. The answer is balance.

What tells me that there is the problem is the fact that since 1972 (graph is from 88, but there are archived versions of same graph from 72) government only spent ~ 20% of taxes raised from motorists back on the road infrastructure. 80% disappeared somewhere.. and the problem is not too many cars, not bad drivers, but the infrastructure which is 50 years outdated (at least).

https://www.racfoundation.org/data/road-user-taxation-highways-spending-data-chart

When they built a new Waitrose near to where we live they put parent and child bays nearest to the main entrance with the disabled bays much further away from the main entrance. I bought this up with the store manager and he said that if distance was a problem I could park in the parent and child bays. I did it a couple of times and you should have seen the looks I got from people. It clearly demonstrated that Waitrose felt their parent and child bays were for the customers that they felt they earn most profit from. The parent and child bays have taken away the importance of disabled bays and why parent and child places are provided in the first place is a mystery to me. No point in telling me that car parks are dangerous places for children then look after them properly.