Easy to take things for granted

200h · October 8, 2017

have to agree also this is the best review of the IS300h i have listened to,although a few errors

nice to se an unbiased review and comparing cars in the same sector.

royoftherovers · October 8, 2017

12 minutes ago, bernieeccles said:

But the E CVT does not use rubber bands ! or did you not know that either ?

Hi Bernie, Yes I did know that, but missed it having watched the entire video. I guess that many many people only think of DAF and rubber bands when they think of CVT boxes.

Overall though a welcome review from a guy I have grown to like through viewing a number of his presentations.A welcome break from Clarkson, Top Gear presenters et al.

Many thanks.

bernieeccles · October 8, 2017

Yes, I agree. Too many motoring writers don't seem to live in the real world with real on the road driving conditions, when testing cars. After all, why should a car built for the road be a track tool, smoking tyres as they drift around corners.

I must admit, that when I first became interested in the 300h, I too thought that the CVT gearbox had some sort of belt system instead of the very clever planetary system with the electric motor.

Still haven't managed to get a 24hr test drive yet though, through the offer on this site.

October 8, 2017

Some hybrids do have traditional cvt and even dct so maybe Toyota should have called it something totally new instead of trying to make it sound familiar?

Sent from my STV100-4 using Tapatalk

parkman · October 8, 2017

I looked long and hard about the choice between a Merc 300h, a Jaguar XE Adblue diesel, and an IS 300h, and eventually I bought the IS.

There were numerous reason for buying the IS and rejecting the Merc and the Jag, even though I have owned two XJR'S and an XJ8, and then I own two classic Mercs, a 1983 W126 500se and a 1991 W124 260E and a 2004 W211 E220cdi Avantgarde.

I will be keeping the '83 500se, but the other two Mercs have to go. The W124 260E is not used any more, and then the W211 E220 has become a millstone around my neck.

i quite agree about the Merc W211 and later gearbox being quite bad. I have found that if you are driving in traffic, in town, and using only first, second and third, and the box is just going through its' job with no major pressure then it is a very adequate gearbox. But driving quickly along a country, bendy, road when the box has to change up and down rapidly then you get some very harsh thumps as the box tries to find the correct gear. Very disconcerting.

But probably the biggest, by far, reason for buying the IS Hybrid is the f****** [!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!] dpf nonsense. I do a lot of short journeys and the stupid dpf unit will suddenly cause the car to go into limp home mode without warning. If I have been able to get a bit of a fast run, maybe a short stretch of motorway or dual carriageway, and I come to a fairly quick stop at a set of traffic lights the car will suddenly go flat when I try to take off again ---- limp home mode. That then means pulling over and switching off the engine for five minutes before continuing.

After that you have to take the car onto the motorway and drive it at about 50 / 60 mph for half an hour or so to try to clear the dpf. Sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn't.

I, personally, would never, ever, buy another diesel car in my life.

The other problem with the E-class is that it develops silly problems for no apparent reason. Recently I left the car parked for three weeks and when I did go out to take it for a run there were four [!!!!!!] error messages on the display. So, a trip out to my indie garage, £50 to connect to MB Star diagnostic, clear the error messages, and go back driving again. There is usually nothing wrong with the car, it's just a dumb-***** ECU, I guess.

So the Merc is being sold off very cheaply, just to get rid of it, and I will be very happy driving my 2013 IS 300h in its place. The IS is a one owner car with full Lexus service history, in fact it is actually ahead on services because the previous elderly owner was paranoid about keeping it serviced, and it is a Premium with 30,000 miles. It is a really nice motor and I think that I was very lucky to come across it in a Lexus dealership.

So goodbye, and good riddance to the E220, and welcome to the IS 300h.

Parkman.

capese21 · October 8, 2017

6 hours ago, bernieeccles said:

But the E CVT does not use rubber bands ! or did you not know that either ?

To say Lexus only fitted a CVT because a conventional gearbox didn't fit is ludicrous.

After a trip in my colleagues E Class diesel I realised how civilised the GS is. Boy that 2.1 lump Mercedes use is noisy. Thankfully dropped on later cars but believe they still use it in the current A class

rayaans · October 10, 2017

On 10/8/2017 at 9:17 PM, capese21 said:

To say Lexus only fitted a CVT because a conventional gearbox didn't fit is ludicrous.

After a trip in my colleagues E Class diesel I realised how civilised the GS is. Boy that 2.1 lump Mercedes use is noisy. Thankfully dropped on later cars but believe they still use it in the current A class

Actually its not ludicrous.

I believe one of the Chief Engineers at Lexus said that he doesn't like the feel of the E-CVT and would like to use a conventional automatic but the reason they can't use it is simply down to packaging it into the vehicle. Its too long to fit with all the other bits.

Hence why they've bolted a 4 speed auto onto the E-CVT to get a multistage hybrid with 10 gears so it feels more progressive like a conventional auto

Ala Larj · October 10, 2017

7 hours ago, rayaans said:

Actually its not ludicrous.

I believe one of the Chief Engineers at Lexus said that he doesn't like the feel of the E-CVT and would like to use a conventional automatic but the reason they can't use it is simply down to packaging it into the vehicle. Its too long to fit with all the other bits.

Hence why they've bolted a 4 speed auto onto the E-CVT to get a multistage hybrid with 10 gears so it feels more progressive like a conventional auto

Is that true Rayaan? I thought it was all to do with the two electric motors. As far as I'm aware I have seven 'electronically' selectable gears. My wife's Jazz has the same but I believe that has a metal belt system like the old rubber band daf.

rayaans · October 11, 2017

17 hours ago, Ala Larj said:

Is that true Rayaan? I thought it was all to do with the two electric motors. As far as I'm aware I have seven 'electronically' selectable gears. My wife's Jazz has the same but I believe that has a metal belt system like the old rubber band daf.

Yes, Im sure it is. I can remember it was in an interview, although it was a few years back - maybe 5 or so.

I'll take a look and see if I can find the interview

Ala Larj · October 11, 2017

1 hour ago, rayaans said:

Yes, Im sure it is. I can remember it was in an interview, although it was a few years back - maybe 5 or so.

I'll take a look and see if I can find the interview

I'd be interested in reading that. I've very little knowledge of how it all works and want to learn. Am intrigued about how the electronically selectable 'gears' work.

Ala Larj · October 12, 2017

15 hours ago, rayaans said:

Yes, Im sure it is. I can remember it was in an interview, although it was a few years back - maybe 5 or so.

I'll take a look and see if I can find the interview

"As far as I'm aware I have seven 'electronically' selectable gears. My wife's Jazz has the same".

Actually I checked this morning and I only have 6. The Jazz has seven though!

parkman · October 12, 2017

14 hours ago, Ala Larj said:

"As far as I'm aware I have seven 'electronically' selectable gears. My wife's Jazz has the same".

Actually I checked this morning and I only have 6. The Jazz has seven though!

I have only 6 gears in the 2013 IS 300h, or at least there are only 6 which show on the display when I use the paddles to change gear.

Parkman.

Thackeray · October 16, 2017

Actually, the transmission was probably one of the main things that persuaded me to get an IS300h. It just seemed such an elegant engineering solution to the problems of the petrol engine.

I've read of conventional automatic gearboxes that have around 370 moving parts. By contrast, I think I've read that the hybrid drive on the first Prius had only 22 moving parts. (Don't quote me but the numbers are something like that.) Having few moving parts seemed like an ideal way to avoid breakdowns, which the Prius reliability record seems to have confirmed.

Here's a random example of what an automatic gearbox looks like when it's taken apart. It's only a three-speed, from a Pontiac TransAm but it shows how many parts there are. Most people won't want to watch more than a minute or two but jump ahead to around 23 minutes in and you can see all the clutch bands. All these parts are potential areas for wear or breakdown.

By contrast, here's a demonstration of the hybrid drive used on Toyotas and Lexuses. A very simple and elegant solution, where the electric motors take the place of the clutch bands in the automatic gearbox. (This lecturer explains things really well but as he talks very slowly I generally increase the youtube playback speed to 1.5 or double speed.)

Here's a graphic display of the hybrid drive power split device. It's been mentioned elsewhere on this forum but it's really useful in helping to understand how the transmission works. Scroll down to the bottom and drag the sliders to control the speed of the gear wheels.

PaulWhitt20 · October 16, 2017

The only bad thing about the e-cvt is the name. It should have been called the Planetary Drive Gear (PDG)!

Mention CVT and you think of rubber bands and Daf Variomatic drive.

Ala Larj · October 17, 2017

On 16/10/2017 at 7:51 PM, Thackeray said:

By contrast, here's a demonstration of the hybrid drive used on Toyotas and Lexuses. A very simple and elegant solution, where the electric motors take the place of the clutch bands in the automatic gearbox. (This lecturer explains things really well but as he talks very slowly I generally increase the youtube playback speed to 1.5 or double speed.)

I found this quite fascinating but how someone can make an interesting technology sound so boring is beyond belief. I wish he'd show a bit of enthusiasm! However, the most amazing thing is finding out that I have a reindeer under the bonnet!

Thackeray · October 18, 2017

19 hours ago, Ala Larj said:

However, the most amazing thing is finding out that I have a reindeer under the bonnet!

You had me puzzled for a while! I think I've worked it out now, though. Is it ring-gear?

By the way, the transmission version is identified on the VIN sticker on the door pillar. The IS300h has the L210, which I think is the rear-wheel drive version of the front-wheel drive P410. I might be wrong but I think the GS300h also has the L210 transmission, as does the RC300h.

One of my favourite features of the power-split device is that when cruising at 50 mph, the engine is turning at around 1200-1500 rpm. At 70 mph it's still doing 1200-1500 rpm; even at 80 (cruising at 130 kph on French motorways) it's still doing 1200-1500 rpm. This helps to make the car so quiet, even at motorway speeds.

My first automatic car did 3000 rpm at 70mph; the next did 2600 rpm, and my previous automatic did 2400 rpm at 70 mph. With this transmission, the engine is turning at half the rate at cruising speeds. I think this is a really great feature.

rayaans · October 18, 2017

8 hours ago, Thackeray said:

You had me puzzled for a while! I think I've worked it out now, though. Is it ring-gear?

By the way, the transmission version is identified on the VIN sticker on the door pillar. The IS300h has the L210, which I think is the rear-wheel drive version of the front-wheel drive P410. I might be wrong but I think the GS300h also has the L210 transmission, as does the RC300h.

One of my favourite features of the power-split device is that when cruising at 50 mph, the engine is turning at around 1200-1500 rpm. At 70 mph it's still doing 1200-1500 rpm; even at 80 (cruising at 130 kph on French motorways) it's still doing 1200-1500 rpm. This helps to make the car so quiet, even at motorway speeds.

My first automatic car did 3000 rpm at 70mph; the next did 2600 rpm, and my previous automatic did 2400 rpm at 70 mph. With this transmission, the engine is turning at half the rate at cruising speeds. I think this is a really great feature.

That's the norm with most cars nowadays though.

The new Merc 9-speed auto's will do 1200rpm at 90mph, same with the LC500 10-speed auto

TBi · October 19, 2017

17 hours ago, Thackeray said:

You had me puzzled for a while! I think I've worked it out now, though. Is it ring-gear?

Check out this website http://eahart.com/prius/psd/

parkman · October 19, 2017

I like the explanations of the technology - but - I still prefer the idea of a reindeer under the bonnet.

Even a large sheep would be OK.

Parkman.

Ala Larj · October 19, 2017

23 minutes ago, parkman said:

I like the explanations of the technology - but - I still prefer the idea of a reindeer under the bonnet.

Even a large sheep would be OK.

Parkman.

Are you Welsh by any chance?😉

Thackeray · October 21, 2017

On 19/10/2017 at 10:04 PM, parkman said:

I still prefer the idea of a reindeer under the bonnet.

Even a large sheep would be OK.

Parkman.

I don't think sheep have the required acceleration for this market segment.

parkman · October 21, 2017

Ah-ha, not welsh, definitely not, no sir.

I not sure about not having the required acceleration - have you ever seen how fast sheep can move when you show them a life sized picture of a wolf ? Or when you shout "Mint Jelly" at them.

Parkman.