54 Plate RX300 Traction Control/ABS Problem

[Nigel_S]

I wonder if anyone can shed any light on an issue I am having with my 2005 RX300... please?

I noticed a little while ago that, occasionally, under normal (not harsh) braking at low speed, or under normal (not harsh) acceleration from standstill, either the ABS or Traction Control would kick in.

The ABS "effect" seemed to be coming from the off-side front and so at a recent service I asked the garage to check the ABS rings and examine whatever they could get into, on all four corners. This they did and reported that everything appeared as it should be.

More recently, I was advised that the issue could be a dirty ABS/Speed Sensor (maybe a small piece of road dirt or debris had become lodged etc...) and that if it could be removed it might be cleaned, however, they also had a tendancy to break if not having been removed before and so the best course of action would be to buy a new one and change it completely. This I did and the work was completed just a couple of hours ago ...and I can report that it most definitely appears that the offside front was the culprit because now, pretty much every time I pull away, the Traction Control kicks in!

The only thing that has been changed was the sensor (Part Number checked before purchase and fitment), so I can only assume with a new sensor in place the issue has become more apparent.

So, can anyone offer me any advice as to what to do next?

Is it worth going ahead and changing the sensor ring, just in case, or has anyone else experienced this and has a "fix" that works?

Any help/advice/assitance would be greatly appreciated.

Many thanks.

Nige.

[SLACKBLADDER]

Why not take it to a lexus dealer and get a diagnostic check on the whole vehicle then you make your own decision where you go next 

[sorcerer]

Traction Control relies on the ABS system to operate and there are LOTS of possible causes for malfunction, from loose and/or dirty/corroded connectors, broken wires, to faulty speed sensors and all points in between, even different-sized tyres. This is the sort of thing that separates the 'parts changers' from the proper mechanics with diagnostics skills.

First of all, you need to hook up an OBD2 scanner and see what codes are present then go from there. If you haven't got a code reader or you don't want to do it yourself, then like Les said above, get it somewhere for a proper diagnostic check. I would imagine that almost all modern cars have ABS and TC so any good mechanic should be able to sort it, not necessarily just Lexus.

[Nigel_S]

Hi Les and John,

That is the conclusion I came to as well...

Booked into Listers at Cheltenham on Thursday for diagnostic check - £80 + vat, which I don't think is too bad at all, as I could end up spending more than that just changing out parts trying to find the answer.

Got to say that I've been delighted with the car. I had Jeep Grand Cherokees for years but when the last one started playing up I decided it was time for a change, especially as I had a bit of a journey coming up. I spotted the RX300 on AutoTrader and thought it looked nice and when the Dealer offered me £1,200 in part-ex for my old V8 Jeep, I was off down to Southampton before he had time to change his mind!

Five weeks later I drove to Kiev and back ...and it didn't miss a beat, even when driving over some of the worst "roads" I have encountered for a long time (actually, that was in Ukraine as well) and through what I can only describe as a monsoon. It was loaded to the gunwales with four adults plus baggage, was a solid as a rock and almost silent ...such a pleasent change from the Jeep!!

[sorcerer]

On 26/09/2017 at 5:12 PM, Nigel_S said:

Hi Les and John,

That is the conclusion I came to as well...

Booked into Listers at Cheltenham on Thursday for diagnostic check

1

And the result was?

[Nigel_S]

On 10/3/2017 at 3:21 PM, sorcerer said:

And the result was?

..not very satisfactory!

Having booked in for a 30 minute diagnostic, two and a half hours later I was told it "wouldn't be long", the guy doing the work was "just doing a test drive". I had no idea why they needed to do a test drive as part of a "computer" diagnostic but at least it gave me time to have a good look round the showroom and drool over the new RX300... that is one nice-looking piece of kit!

Long story short, I was lead through to the workshop to have a whole list of "faults" pointed out to me, for which they would prepare a quote and while they were doing that, maybe I would like to step outside and look at a '57 plate RX350 they had just taken in as part-exchange...?

I went to look out of curiosity and was shown an RX350 with just a few miles less on the clock than my '54 plate and not much better (visible) condition which they had priced at "just £7,999" (yes, that's what I thought too...!) Again, out of curiosity, I asked what mine would be worth against it and after the customary sucking of teeth and looks of "you know yours is worth absolutely nothing but we will come up with a figure to see if we can take it off your hands", they disappeared into the office to "work something out".

Why do they always say that.. "work something out"? What on earth is there to "work out", unless they are incapable of simple mental mathematics?

While all this was going on they had at least managed to prepare my "quote" - and I am not going to quote what I thought when they told me it was in excess of £8,000!!

I won't go into chapter and verse but to take just one item from the list, the speed sensor..

The offside unit was brand new, having just been purchased and fitted by RPM in Malvern, the total cost of which was about £125.00 including labour and VAT.

Ignoring the fact that the offside was brand new, Listers of Cheltenham quoted to replace both, for a total of £1,777.83!!!

Apparently I "needed" three back plates at over £300 each... I needed an upper joint at... I needed an... and so it went on... and on.... and on!

What I really needed was to get out of there and when they had the temerity to to re-emerge from their office and said they would offer me £2,025 for mine against the '57 plate, that is exactly what I did!

Sorry, I nearly forgot the results of the "diagnostic"... NO FAULT FOUND!

The guy that did the testing told me that he could find nothing wrong, that it only seemed to happen at speeds of 8mph or less and he suspected that the near-side sensor was in fact the unit playing up. Listers gave me £20 off the £80 + vat bill as they found no fault.

So, where are we now?

Not being able to locate a unit in the UK, I have, quite literally, just received a replacement near-side sensor from a company in Germany which, including UPS shipping, cost £24.63 (1/3 of the price of the first unit I bought here in the UK... ) If you want to check them out, they are here: www.bestpartstore.co.uk (don't be fooled by the ".co.uk", they are in Berlin).

I have just booked my RX into RPM for next Monday to have it fitted and will let you know how it goes.

[Spacewagon52]

An interesting tale ............... let the buyer beware! Does not inspire confidence in Listers of Cheltenham. Anyone else have any thoughts on this?

[Nigel_S]

It's been a while since I updated so thought I'd let you know where we are now ...which is no further forwards really!

Having replaced the near-side sensor the fault persisted so we decided to replace all of them, just in case and let's face it, at less than £25 each plus a bit of labour it seemed a no-brainer. It was also suggested by a Toyota tech to bleed the brakes, again just as a "ticked that box so it isn't a problem" measure, however, that LED to another problem in that the bleed nipple on all four calipers was corroded rock-solid and could not be persuaded to release. It was also noticed that the pins were severely corroded and the calipers should ideally be replaced anyway. Incidentally, Listers did not mention this, maybe they thought an £8k bill was enough - I shudder to think what it would have been otherwise!

I again turned to bestpartstore.co.uk, who were able to supply all four calipers at just under £50 each, delivered. I had to pay a deposit against the return of the old units but that would be expected anywhere.

So we now have all four sensors changed, all four rings inspected, all four calipers changed, brake system flushed, re-filled and bled ...and the problem still persists!

I have also re-set the ECU, by disconnecting the Battery for five minutes, reconnecting (turned sidelights on first, to avoid "spiking" the ECU), re-starting, sit at idle until warmed up then drive for a few miles.

I am now down to pulling the ABS relay, except I cannot find it in the location every piece of advice says it should be in...

UPDATE:

I have just got back from Ledbury Exhaust & MoT Centre (who have got some pretty nifty diagnostic kit) and who might have found the problem.

With everything that has already been done, the mechanic speculated that it might be YAW Sensor related and it would be worth re-calibrating it just to make sure, however, despite a number of attempts the re-calibration failed. I now have an illuminated VSC light on the dash - but the Traction Control problem has gone away!

So, it would seem that the issue may well have been a failing YAW Sensor which failed completely under re-calibration and is now non-functioning, hence is off completely, hence is not "telling" the ECU that I am accelerating like a madman every time I breath on the accelerator from a standing start.

So, a step forwards... except I now need to know the Part Number to ensure I get the right replacement ...and to do that (apparently) I have to inspect the existing unit ...and to do that, I need to know where to look.

I have gone through the forum and can't find anything definitive (doesn't mean it isn't here, just that I haven't found it yet), so if anyone could point me in the right direction as to the exact location of the YAW Sensor on a 54 Plate RX300, I would be eternally grateful - and maybe, just maybe, this saga will start to draw to a close.

Many thanks in advance for your help,

Nige.

[sorcerer]

It's certainly turned into quite a saga Nige!

This is from the American forum and it relates to an RX330 rather than our RX300s, but it should help:

https://www.clublexus.com/forums/rx-2nd-gen-2004-2009/596123-rx-330-yaw-sensor-location.html

[Nigel_S]

8 minutes ago, sorcerer said:

It's certainly turned into quite a saga Nige!

This is from the American forum and it relates to an RX330 rather than our RX300s, but it should help:

https://www.clublexus.com/forums/rx-2nd-gen-2004-2009/596123-rx-330-yaw-sensor-location.html

Hi John,

It certainly has!

Many thanks for the info - I have actually seen this and am using it as the basis for where to go next, although it looks like the driver's seat is going to have to come out just to find out what the part number is. No choice though as I believe an "On" VSC light is an MoT fail and that is due in the not too distant future. *Sighs*

If it wasn't such a damn fine car, I might have binned it a while back but having driven it for just about 18 months now (including a round-trip to Kiev), I can honestly say that I doubt I'll be going back to a Jeep any time soon (although the V8 was kinda fun...).

[Nigel_S]

RPM in Malvern have managed to locate the sensor (to the right (looking at it from the rear) of the heater vent, under the driver's seat) and photographed it to get the proper part number, which is: 89183-48010.

Looking on eBay, I saw there are a few used ones for between £15 - £20 and, thinking that it might be more prudent to buy new on this occasion, I contacted a local Toyota Dealer to find out how much it would be but, unfortunately, they will not have any in stock until the 6th of April.

Obviously, I don't want to wait until then but, nonetheless, asked about the price... £529.00 + VAT!  OVER £600 FOR A SENSOR!! ABSOLUTELY INSANE!!!

Needless to say, I have just ordered it off of eBay!

[sorcerer]

WOW!!! That is indeed insane! Thank goodness for eBay eh? 

[Nigel_S]

The saga continues (this is getting longer than Star Wars...)!

The Yaw sensor arrived complete with full mounts and bracket, which was a bonus and I had it fitted and re-calibrated just over a week ago.

...and we are right back to square one, with the fault back in full effect - and yes, that is the sound of what's left of my hair hitting the keyboard!

So, following yet another trawl through the depths of any Lexus-esque forum I could find, I eventually located a single item that described exactly the issue I am experiencing.

This is the article: https://www.justanswer.com/toyota/83aop-lexus-rx300-2003-lexus-rx300-when-pulling.html

...and this the paragraph that caught my attention: " "The vehicle skid control system will be activated and the primary thing that causes this is the steering angle sensor. If you have a scan tool that monitored live data from the vehicle skid control system the steering angle while going straight and braking normally should be 0°. What you'll probably find is that the angle is going crazy or off more than 20 or 30° when it actually is going straight. The computer will interpret this is a sharp turn while moving and try and activate the skid control system to correct for this. The yaw rate sensor and the deceleration sensor are the two secondary sensory inputs that help control or monitor how much slip control is input."

This morning I was back down at RPM in Malvern, who plugged in their diagnostics and looked specifically for information regarding this and while they did not find anything untoward with regard to the steering angle sensor, they did spot that the Tilt ECU reading was 4.5 degrees (which is not an issue as within tolerance) and that the ABS/TRAC ECU reading was 1,150 degrees! In other words, the ABS/TRAC would assume that the steering is hard over on the stop (and at 1,150 degrees, I'd suggest a few time round as well!).

In testing this did not change regardless of the steering wheel position, so it would seem that whenever I pull away the system believes I am skidding in a straight line with the steering hard over and therefore activate.

To remedy this will require a replacement ABS pump (44540-48060) and, needless to say, I did not bother speaking to Lexus and have bought a "pre-owned", warrantied unit off of eBay instead.

Hopefully it will be here by the middle of next week and this sorry saga might just draw to a close.

I'll let you know...

[sorcerer]

Fingers (and toes!) crossed for you Nigel, really hope this sorts it out.

[irbstomrodger]

Hi Nigel,

I'm having the same problems as you, with my 2001 rx300. i've also changed the brake modulator/pump assy, to no effect.

have you managed to get yours fixed?

regards Tom 

[Nigel_S]

Hi Tom,

Yes... and no... :-(

We tracked the problem down to the (I think it is called) stability/yaw control unit, which is found under the driver's seat.

When unplugged the issue went away and so we changed the unit... and the issue returned so, while it is probably not that particular item causing the problem, when unplugged the symptoms disappear - although you get the commensurate warning lights on the dash. However, having fought this problem for all this time and spending far too much time and money on it, I decided the simplest thing to do would be to live without traction control and "cure" the warning lights with that age-old remedy... black insulating tape!

Two steps forward... one step back!

I hope this helps and if you do finally manage to resolve the problem completely, please let me know because the only way I can see to 100% fix it, is to change the car!

All the best,

Nige.

[Spacewagon52]

42 minutes ago, Nigel_S said:

Hi Tom,

Yes... and no... 😞

We tracked the problem down to the (I think it is called) stability/yaw control unit, which is found under the driver's seat.

When unplugged the issue went away and so we changed the unit... and the issue returned so, while it is probably not that particular item causing the problem, when unplugged the symptoms disappear - although you get the commensurate warning lights on the dash. However, having fought this problem for all this time and spending far too much time and money on it, I decided the simplest thing to do would be to live without traction control and "cure" the warning lights with that age-old remedy... black insulating tape!

Two steps forward... one step back!

I hope this helps and if you do finally manage to resolve the problem completely, please let me know because the only way I can see to 100% fix it, is to change the car!

All the best,

Nige.

I think is says a great deal about how much you appreciate the RX 300 overall, that you are prepared to forgo the Traction Control. 

"In Pursuit of Perfection" is an excellent mantra for Lexus but sometimes, as owners, we can get a bit carried away with it in our cars. The knee-jerk reaction is to get rid of the car - that would be my initial thought - but unless it is a real safety issue (there are plenty of safe cars that do not have TC) then perhaps we should learn to live with slight annoyances. It just reminds us that life is not perfect.

 

[Nigel_S]

5 minutes ago, Spacewagon52 said:

I think is says a great deal about how much you appreciate the RX 300 overall, that you are prepared to forgo the Traction Control. 

"In Pursuit of Perfection" is an excellent mantra for Lexus but sometimes, as owners, we can get a bit carried away with it in our cars. The knee-jerk reaction is to get rid of the car - that would be my initial thought - but unless it is a real safety issue (there are plenty of safe cars that do not have TC) then perhaps we should learn to live with slight annoyances. It just reminds us that life is not perfect.

 

I have had a number of 4x4 over the years, including 3 Jeeps, 2 Shoguns, a couple of Toyotas and even a Hi-Lux Surf (which I drove back and forth to Kiev, topping the water up every 400Km as it turned out to have a cracked head!) but have to say that the Lexus is by far and away my favourite to date. OK, it may not be as pokey as my old V8 Jeep and, to be fair, I probably wouldn't take it some of the places I took the Surf but it too has done a run to Kiev (plus a number of trips to Europe) and just seems to take everything in its stride - and in comfort too!

Yes, I probably will change it at some point although I am pretty certain it will be for another (slightly younger) Lexus RX of some description - I just wish I could afford a new one!

As for Traction Control, I can always use the one built into my right foot. :-)

[irbstomrodger]

thanks Nigel, i'll carry on trying to fix it! the rest of the car is very good.

cheers tom

 

[Antique]

Just read your tale of ABS and VSC on your Lexus RX300 2004. This is my dilemma as well. For over 6 years when it first appeared the ABS light came on, I stopped, checked the manual and was ready to take it to the nearest Dealer. When I switch on and started, the light went out and over the next 6 years came on occasionally and then went out after I had stopped, got a paper or something and started again and stayed off for weeks and months. Just recently the lights have stayed on. So like you I had a diagnostic test, he came up with "It might be the pump"!!! at £1800 a "might be" is not good enough. I found another reputable company who had my car for one hour, didn't nail the problem so didn't charge me but said they were confident they could solve the problem and needed 3 hours. So I booked it in, they charged me £160 but couldn't solve the problem because they didn't have the Lexus software but gave me the printout and advised me to go to a Lexus specialist. Why didn't he tell me this before taking my £160. He said it was the Steering Angle sensor and on having this checked it did as you experienced tend to tell the controller that I had the steering on full lock, yet another expensive item from Lexus, in 2 parts total cost around £725 but before I plunged in I had another diagnostic test. This fella didn't charge me but suggested it was the ABS control module and wait for it; another expensive Lexus part, this time £1500!!! Like you say they are such great cars it sickens me to have to consider scrapping it for the sake of a light that doesn't actually make much difference unless you drive like a maniac. When you think of all the cars on the road that don't have all these sophisticated devices why change the MOT rules and include warning lights. I am going to have one more diagnostic and get a quote for the work and go ahead if it is reasonable only on the understanding they give me a guarantee what ever they do will solve the problem, like you I have covered the offending lights with black tape, amazing what a difference it makes when you don't have that light glaring at you.  If you have solved your problem I would be interested how (got rid of the car) last option.

[Nigel_S]

13 hours ago, Antique said:

Just read your tale of ABS and VSC on your Lexus RX300 2004. This is my dilemma as well. For over 6 years when it first appeared the ABS light came on, I stopped, checked the manual and was ready to take it to the nearest Dealer. When I switch on and started, the light went out and over the next 6 years came on occasionally and then went out after I had stopped, got a paper or something and started again and stayed off for weeks and months. Just recently the lights have stayed on.....

Hi Antique,

Yep, it's a real bummer of an issue and, despite changing everything you mentioned in your message (including the pump), albeit with "guaranteed" used parts, nothing resolved the problem, so I just left the black tape where it was and continued on my merry way.

Unfortunately, at the next MoT it was discovered that the rear sub-frame assembly had rotted from the inside out. Apparently Lexus don't both to rust protect it during maufacture as they don't see it as a problem but it meant the vehicle was immediately condemned and could no longer be driven until repaired. At a cost of over £4k for a new sub-frame that was never going to happen, so i put it on AutoTrader as "Spares or Repair" and sold it for £1,500 cash the very next day.

I believe it is now living out the rest of its days somewhere in Africa, where a rotten sub-frame is easily fixed with a bit of T-Bar and some artistic welding! 🙂

[PCM]

Mine failed its MOT on rusted sills.

£150's of welding fixed it.

I agree though - Lexus and rust do not sit well.

[Antique]

£1500 !!!!. I would be pleased to be offered that in part exchange deal. We have decided, when I say we; I mean I have agreed with my wife that come next March or May we will look for a replacement used car. Because of health problems certain criteria have to be met so a little limited with choice. Not going for another Lexus but considering a Citroen C4 Picasso. Volvo out of the question because they are a bit like Lexus with their prices. Thanks for the responses everyone, just think of the spare time I will have not having to search for Lexus parts.

 

Regards

[Antique]

I just thought I would update you. After 3 diagnostics with three different solutions, anything from £725 to £1800, just for the parts and no guarantee whatever they did would solve this problem. I gave up and covered over the offending lights. Decided to look for another car, newer. In the past month I have been so disillusioned with what you get for your money. I was prepared to spend up to £13000/500 but kept comparing them with the Lexus. each time they bragged about what the newer cars had so did my Lexus. On the way back from the last disappointment I decided to pull back the tape I had to hide the light and it was out and for the next 4 days it stayed off, them! just after I had filled up with petrol the lights came on. I have decided to wait until next year some time and if they are still coming on I will book a session with Lexus, 20 miles away, to do a diagnosis; tell me what the solution is and how much it will cost and if they will guarantee it will fix the problem, no trial and error. If not, either hope they are out when the MOT is due or if not look for another car. Going by the cost of used parts for this car scarp value should be good. I am going to cover the lights up again.

 

Regards everyone