Crashed Lexus Loaner

[Linas.P]

That is great, now you need to understand that not everybody does and if you would be quoted  £2760 then you would share more sentiments... 

Again it seems consistent and in line with my "conspiracy" theory that it is government tool to control number of cars on the street. The government goal is to reduce the number of cars in London - here you have it x10 more expensive insurance.

As well it would be great if somebody would care to read and answer entire post, not only to pick on one point and ignore the rest.

[NemesisUK]

What size tfh do you take Linas? 

[Linas.P]

I guess constructive discussion was exhausted few pages ago.. @Bluesman

[Shahpor]

5 minutes ago, Linas.P said:

I guess constructive discussion was exhausted few pages ago.. @Bluesman

Unfortunately, I think this is the most sensible thing that has been said on this thread for a while now.

[VrmmVrmm]

1 hour ago, Linas.P said:

Yep... ask tobacco companies about smoking risk.... 

My calculation is clearly is just a simplified example and I have never claimed that the possibility of the accident is 1%, neither there are only one million insurance policies, nor the cost of claim is £20k - do you understand what example is? So where exactly my claims contradicts statistics widely?

Cost of £1.79million per road death is not backed by anything and UK economy has nothing to do with insurance premiums. Actually, it cost more to treat injured than compensate for death. You sound almost like cyclist claiming that there no need to drive.... so basically it is fine to charge for insurance all the money there is.

All uninsured thing is direct result of insurance companies together with government being unfair and fraudulent, pricing out people off the roads.

"A motorist forking out £376 for car insurance can expect £287 or 76 per cent of that to go towards people's claims costs." - show me person who pays £376 for insurance... add maybe 1 or 2 in the front it will be more likely.

I see you you not interested defending you fantasy about hit and run fines and German laws... fine... I guess it was not you who said that either.

 

Enjoy....Sources Included...The AA (England)...Insurance Federation Germany...Criminal Code for Drivers Germany

Source http://www.theaa.com/newsroom/news-2013/pr-new-uninsured-driver-fines.html

It is believed that at 1 in 25 the number of uninsured drivers in Great Britain is one of the highest in Europe. In Germany, for example, it is estimated to be about 1 in 500; in Sweden 1 in 1,000; in the Netherlands about 1 in 150. AA Source: Motor Insurers' Bureau.  Germany being 20 times better than England in this respect so 499 drivers pay for every uninsured there (1 in 500)

 In the event of a non-fault collision with an uninsured driver, the victim is likely to lose their excess and no-claim bonus because there is no insurance company against which to claim. However, a claim can be made through the Motor Insurers' Bureau, which is funded by the insurance industry and compensates the victims of crashes caused by uninsured drivers. A lost no-claim discount will eventually be restored once this recovery, minus an excess, is paid but it can take many months because of the due legal processes involved. Some insurers including AA Insurance offer an 'uninsured driver promise' which ensures that an AA Insurance customer doesn't lose his or her excess or no-claim discount at all under such circumstances.

 http://www.howtogermany.com/pages/vehicle-insurance.html

 Vehicle Insurance in Germany

 Before a person can register a car in Germany he or she must have proof of third party liability coverage for all damage or injury to another person, car or object. While collision or comprehensive insurance isn't required by law, most institutions financing the purchase of a vehicle do require it. This can raise the insurance bill considerably, and insurance is not cheap in Germany.

There are numerous factors in addition to coverage that influence the insurance price. Beginning drivers pay more than experienced drivers; those driving big, powerful cars pay more than those with more modest vehicles; those living in urban areas pay more than those in rural areas, and those who have been found liable in accidents pay more than those who haven't.

If you have a good driving record in your home country you can get credit for it here. Get a letter from your insurance agent back home. If the German agent says you can't get this credit try another agent.

 There is no requirement for a driver to have any but third party liability insurance, but others kinds are available and sometimes advisable. There is full comprehensive, covering all damages or injuries done to your own car, another car or a person or object. There is also partial coverage for fire, theft and other sorts of damage (from break-ins, shattered glass, animals, etc.), and policies covering the death or disability of a passenger. Such policies often have deductibles, meaning you must swallow the cost up to a certain upper limit. These make the insurance less costly.

 Rental agencies and institutions financing the purchase of a car often make some sort of collision insurance a condition of the transaction.

 Several insurance agents in Germany are geared to getting the expatriate through these complexities. (See our Resources data base) Your agent will issue you, free of charge, an International Green Card as the proof-of-insurance document you need to drive in other European countries.

 For information on getting a no-claims bonus (NCB) for your German insurance before arrival in Germany. 

https://www.gesetze-im-internet.de/englisch_stgb/englisch_stgb.html#p1336

Section 142…Criminal Code …Drivers
Leaving the scene of an accident without cause

(1) A party to a road traffic accident who leaves the scene of the accident before he

1.  has facilitated, on behalf of the other parties to the accident and any persons suffering injury or damage, the determination of his identity, his vehicle and the nature of his involvement through his presence and an statement that he was involved in the accident; or

2.  has waited for an appropriate period of time under the circumstances, during which no one was willing to make such determinations,

shall be liable to imprisonment not exceeding three years or a fine.

(2) A party to an accident shall also be liable under subsection (1) above if he

1.  after expiry of the waiting period (subsection (1) No 2 above); or

2.  justifiably or excusably

left the scene of the accident but subsequently does not without undue delay make these determinations possible.

(3) A party to the accident satisfies the obligation to subsequently make the determinations possible if he informs the persons entitled to receive such information (subsection (1) No 1 above) or a nearby police station that he was involved in the accident, and if he states his address and whereabouts as well as the licence plate number and location of his vehicle, and makes it available for prompt examination for a reasonable period. This shall not apply if he intentionally obstructs the determinations by his conduct.

(4) The court shall mitigate the sentence (section 49(1)) in cases under subsections (1) and (2) above or may order a discharge under these provisions if the party to the accident subsequently voluntarily makes the determinations possible (subsection (3) above) within twenty-four hours after an accident which did not take place in owing traffic and which resulted in merely minor property damage.

(5) A party to an accident shall be deemed to be anyone whose conduct under the circumstances may have contributed to causing the accident.

In most cases, court proceedings end – if it has actually come to a prosecution – not with a not guilty verdict but with a conviction. The court then sentences to a fine or prison sentence, whereby the prison sentence may be turned into a release on licence. A conviction may, however, entail many other even much more painful consequences. 

 In a nation of drivers, a ban on driving pursuant to § 44 German Criminal Code is a severe sanction. As an incidental legal consequence, a ban on driving may only be imposed in conjunction with one of the main types of punishment, i.e. a fine or a prison sentence, but not on its own. If there is a corresponding qualifying crime, a ban on driving can be imposed for a period or one to three months. As § 44 German Criminal Coded requires a real crime and not just a misdemeanour, § 25 German Road Traffic Act stipulates a corresponding regulation for traffic misdemeanours.

There are three kinds of crimes (so-called qualifying crime) that can lead to a ban on driving:

 Crimes whilst driving a vehicle: These are all traffic offences, i.e. such as crimes like driving without due care as per § 315c German Criminal Code or driving under the influence of alcohol as per § 316 German Criminal Code. In these cases, it is customary to order a ban on driving.

Crimes associated with driving a vehicle: Judicature construes this term extensively. This takes into consideration all crimes where driving the vehicle serves as promoting the crime, as with the likes of drug smuggling or using a vehicle as a getaway vehicle.

Breaches of a driver’s obligations:

The offender has not violated any traffic regulations but other obligations as a road user. He has, for example, hit and run as per § 142 German Criminal Code

or has repeatedly driven without a driving license.

If there is a so-called qualifying crime, it is up to the court to impose a ban on driving. In the judgement, it can prohibit the driving of all or only certain vehicles for a period of up to three months. The driving license is usually confiscated for this period...Fine €500

 

[Linas.P]

Quite long post, can I ask what you tried to prove?

Yes insurance situation in UK is abysmal, the insurance companies have free reign on the motorist whilst police and goverment does not care, that results in general lack of trust and respect towards institutions. Drivers are treated unfairly and certainly some risk driving without insurance instead of being ripped-off by fraudsters aka insurance companies. I am not surprised that situation in Germany and elsewhere in Europe is so much better. Why choose to risk being prosecuted when insurance is reasonable priced.

Yes hit and run is serious offence in Germany, likewise in UK. Codes AC10 and likely AC20... check it out, both gives 5-10 points, £1000 penalty and potential imprisonment. 

Anything else?

[dutchie01]

Excuse me but i wasnt paying attention, what was the topic again?

[VrmmVrmm]

Quote: I see you you not interested defending you fantasy about hit and run fines and German laws... fine... I guess it was not you who said that either.

No nothing else... you got what you asked for...pity it had to be spelled out....but being a stickler for detail I thought it'd be nice for you to see the sources at least.  If you wish to turn a mole hill into a mountain it's fine by me. The OP has plenty now to go on don't you think!

[Shahpor]

18 minutes ago, dutchie01 said:

Excuse me but i wasnt paying attention, what was the topic again?

Apparently it is who can spend more time doing research to win an Internet argument.

[Linas.P]

59 minutes ago, VrmmVrmm said:

Quote: I see you you not interested defending you fantasy about hit and run fines and German laws... fine... I guess it was not you who said that either.

No nothing else... you got what you asked for...pity it had to be spelled out....but being a stickler for detail I thought it'd be nice for you to see the sources at least.  If you wish to turn a mole hill into a mountain it's fine by me. The OP has plenty now to go on don't you think!

That is neither what you, nor what I said.

1. You said that in Germany one needs to call police for every accident regardless what has happened - not true, see point 3.
2. You said that in UK "hit and run" is minor accident which only attracts £100 PCN - not true again, see point 4.
3. I have said, that based on EU Directives Police needs to be called only in case of serious accident i.e. injury and in cases of disagreements, influence of drugs or alcohol - see "European Accident Statement".
4. As well I have said that "hit and run" is equally serious crime in UK, see codes AC10 and AC20.

Spell it out to yourself before posting.

[VrmmVrmm]

1. Actions to take immediately after road traffic accidents The police must be notified if people have died or been injured in the accident. The police can be contacted on the national emergency number 110. The police will then draw up an official report. Whether or not you should inform the police in other cases, depends on the severity of the damage. In the case of accidents involving limited damage to property, the police are not obliged to draw up an official report. You may not leave the scene of the accident before you have exchanged information necessary to settle any claims with the other parties involved in the accident. It is a criminal offence to do so. If the police are not called to the site of the accident, for example, when the accident involves material damage only, you are strongly advised to use the European Claim Form which can be obtained from your insurance company. It is important that both parties involved in the accident sign the form because the form is normally used as evidence. It is also important to take down the names and addresses of any witnesses as well as to give information on the facts of the accident. It is also advisable to take a photograph of the scene of the accident.

NB: Do not sign the European Claim Form if you do not understand the content! The same applies to other statements on who is to blame for the accident. You should not sign the form if there are differences of opinion on the facts of the accident.

In such a case it is advisable to contact the police, even if the accident only involves damage to property.

2. Legal procedure In accordance with the German Road Traffic Act (Straßenverkehrsgesetz), the holder of a motor vehicle is strictly liable for the damage caused by him when using the car, even if he cannot be blamed for the accident. A motor vehicle is in use for so long as it is in traffic and exposes other road users to danger. The holder of the car is not liable if he can prove that the accident was caused as a result of force majeure. The strict liability does not apply to passengers. In addition to this strict liability, there is also fault-based liability. According to the Civil Code, a person who does not exercise the due care required on the road, is liable for the damage caused by him as a result.

Note a few things which have relevance:

1) Your insurance company may walk away if you admit liability you don't sign anything...Catch 22

2) The European Form must be signed by both parties.... Very difficult to do insofar as you're advised by your insurer never to do so.

3) Accident means injuries in some German Jurisdictions whereas incident means material only.

4) Many injuries including Whiplash et al usually get claimed when everyone has gone their separate way.

5) In Germany the Police report becomes admissible evidence

Car accidents in Germany - What to do? What not to do?...Advice to visitors to Germany

Many still consider Germany the country of fast driving without any limits and is as such unique in the world.

But if problems on the road do occur, many rules are strange and unknown to foreign travellers.

Here are the 7 worst mistakes you should avoid when you are involved in an accident on Germany's roads:

1. It is a mistake not to call the police, because every accident must be registered by the police, otherwise problems are inevitable with the insurance companies.
2. It is a mistake not to secure the accident site: the first action after an accident must be securing the accident site, so no secondary accidents will happen. If you don't take this measure it will cost you a minimum of 30 euros.
3. It is a mistake to drive the car to the side of the road too soon quickly. First, mark the car's positions with a chalk marker, and then take pictures. If only minor damage has occurred, the vehicle must be taken off the road speedily.
4. It is a mistake not to include all data in the claim report. Otherwise there will be delays in settling the claims. The insurance company pays only when all necessary data are reported. It is best to use a form to report a damage.
5. It is a mistake to make incorrect claim reports. In case of false declarations, the insurance company pays less or nothing at all.
6. It is a mistake to negotiate with the opposing insurance company by yourself: When it gets complicated, best to turn to a lawyer; and consult with your own insurance company in any case.
7. It is a mistake to make decisions without consulting your own insurance company: When the insurance company must pay, they may also decide where, for example, a vehicle shall be repaired.

[rich1068]

[Linas.P]

@VrmmVrmm you data might be outdated, but I am happy for you to challenge RAC (see below - only in case of serious injury or damage):

https://www.rac.co.uk/drive/travel/country/germany/

Emergencies

In the case of injury or serious damage to vehicles the police must be called.

Emergency telephone numbers are:

• 110: Police
• 112: Ambulance, Fire Brigade
• Here's a really important bit of knowledge; you can dial 112 from anywhere in Europe and an operator will connect you to an emergency service in the country you're visiting. Operators can answer your call in their native language, English, and French. 

Emergency telephones are placed at two km intervals along the motorways.

The nearest emergency post is indicated by a black arrow on poles at the edge of the carriageway. 

Some telephones have a button to request breakdown assistance and a button to request an ambulance; other telephones connect the caller to a rescue control centre.

The warning triangle must be placed 200 metres behind a vehicle which has stopped on a motorway.

A vehicle which has broken down on a motorway must be towed away to the nearest exit.

[VrmmVrmm]

Get back to OP....I only used Germany to illustrate to you how flawed was your reasoning that other countries had cheap insurance so it followed as night follows day that the UK Insurance market was a fraud.  

UK 1 in 25

Germany  1 in 500

Sweden 1 in 1000.... not paying for insurance at all.  Hence UK expensive...

If you don't see that as part of the reason then you're a lost cause. When you go out on such a limb do not cut off the branch behind you.

You haven't at any stage in this saga produced one word or sentence to coherently support that premise. This cul-de-sac of technicalities  doesn't support it either.  

Copy and paste limits your ability to follow up on your own advice not to purchase NCB protection as it too was considered as fraud.  The reason being there isn't anything out there to support that stance.

Not alone that you have stated your insurance provider doesn't offer that product which is again spurious if you never intended purchasing it.  

Yet and this is the astonishing bit you see yourself as best place to advise.

THE END.

[royoftherovers]

36 minutes ago, VrmmVrmm said:

Get back to OP....I only used Germany to illustrate to you how flawed was your reasoning that other countries had cheap insurance so it followed as night follows day that the UK Insurance market was a fraud.  

UK 1 in 25

Germany  1 in 500

Sweden 1 in 1000.... not paying for insurance at all.  Hence UK expensive...

If you don't see that as part of the reason then you're a lost cause. When you go out on such a limb do not cut off the branch behind you.

You haven't at any stage in this saga produced one word or sentence to coherently support that premise. This cul-de-sac of technicalities  doesn't support it either.  

Copy and paste limits your ability to follow up on your own advice not to purchase NCB protection as it too was considered as fraud.  The reason being there isn't anything out there to support that stance.

Not alone that you have stated your insurance provider doesn't offer that product which is again spurious if you never intended purchasing it.  

Yet and this is the astonishing bit you see yourself as best place to advise.

THE END.

Vrmm Vrmm and Linas,

It has been interesting to follow this thread and its been a bit like watching Ping-Pong. You both have strong views and I would not wish to criticise either of you for holding them.

What I would find very interesting would be for each of you to declare on open forum just what your respective drivng records are, your respective ages (to the nearest 10 will do) and to state just how long you have been driving.

Such information might enable members to view what has been exchanged between you, in some sort of context.

No problem if neither of you wish to do so.

Many thanks for the entertainment anyway.

 

Regards

John

[VrmmVrmm]

No problem John...aka... Royoftherovers

47 years driving, under 70...Retired....4 accidents/incidents ...all no faults on my part...one of which wrote off the car 25 years ago...two rear-end incidents...one sideswipe.  Never anyone hurt.  Always Fully Comprehensive ...always NCB Protected...never lost NCB.  Never cost extra other than inflationary rises which happen anyway.  Most recent incident rear-end 4 years ago...never claimed injury only for material damage.  Rather than wait for insurance to be worked out always got the car fixed through my Comprehensive policy ...in one case had to be replaced with brand new...would always use insurers recommended garage...never penalised. Never received any points on my licence. (which helps insurance too) Only ever used mainstream companies to insure...never a broker.

THE END...again!

 

[royoftherovers]

18 minutes ago, VrmmVrmm said:

No problem John...aka... Royoftherovers

47 years driving, under 70...Retired....4 accidents/incidents ...all no faults on my part...one of which wrote off the car 25 years ago...two rear-end incidents...one sideswipe.  Never anyone hurt.  Always Fully Comprehensive ...always NCB Protected...never lost NCB.  Never cost extra other than inflationary rises which happen anyway.  Most recent incident rear-end 4 years ago...never claimed injury only for material damage.  Rather than wait for insurance to be worked out always got the car fixed through my Comprehensive Policy ...in one case had to be replaced with brand new...would always use insurers recommended garage...never penalised. Never received any points on my licence. (which helps insurance too) Only ever used mainstream companies to insure...never a broker.

THE END...again!

 

Very very interesting Paul.Not too dissimilar from my own experience.

I`m approaching 71. Fully comp all of my driving life.Always fully protected ncb. 2 accidents, both my fault, many years ago, .... both approaching roundabout expecting car in front to move off..it didn1t so I HIT IT.Never losr ncb.Never claimed for injury.Never received any points on licence. Only ever used mainstream too.

We must have a beer or or 7 seven  sometime!!

 

Regards

John

[Linas.P]

27, 11 years license (since 16 as that is possible in the country where I am from), Full UK license for 9 years, 4 years NCB in UK (as for over 5 years I was unable to afford insurance in UK), never had accident in my life until about 4 weeks ago, when I was hit and driver did no stop (just to be clear - I have reported it to insurance, but did not make a claim), then again 2 weeks ago in Lexus loaner... and how unbelievable - I was rear ended today... again. So 11 years of driving without accidents and 3 accidents in less than a month, none of them my fault... still I am sure insurance would like to know about all of them and increase my premium (just because). No points on license, no fines, only ever had one tricky offense 2 years ago  - it stated 40MPH when entering the roadworks, but repeaters were 50MPH, never tired challenging it and just accepted offer on speed awareness course.

@royoftherovers - that was good call, I guess it highlights that different generations has different experience and hence opinion about same things.

Now clearly, I can see the reason why we have different opinion about insurance - you guys started driving back in the days when insurance was cheap and by the time it become unbelievably expensive and especially discriminating against young and youngish drivers you became old enough not to be affect. That is the reason you have never faced issue the current generation of drivers faces and you overall have completely different experience.

Finally, I have no problem with that insurance premium increases when you have accident which is your fault, what I cannot accept is that the premium increases even more if you have accident which is not your fault and even if you do not  make a claim. As well I have no problem with Fully comprehensive cover being expensive, my problem is that Third party cover is more expensive and that overall the most basic insurance cover you can have is often more expensive than a car. Whereas it is fact that insurance is cheaper in most of Europe and somehow insurers makes more profit there as well. 

[Shahpor]

4 minutes ago, Linas.P said:

 - I was rear ended today... again. So 11 years of driving without accidents and 3 accidents in less than a month, none of them my fault...

That is very unlucky.

Not too much damage I hope?

[Linas.P]

Well... I probably need yet another thread... just as a background - I had my entire car painted and picked it-up 12 days ago with completely fresh paint. As result paint is not yet fully cured and relatively "soft" , I was planning to have ceramic sealants and protective film applied, but cannot do it for at least 4-6 weeks to allow for paint to fully cure and solvents to go off. 

In summary it was very light "touch" and it wouldn't have damaged the paint if it would have been fully cured, but because it was not cured I can see paint being uneven where the other car touched and there is like 5mm scratch straight to the primer and needs to be touched-up. Nothing really, just that it was technically 3rd accident in 4 weeks period and car paint was otherwise perfect before this one 

[royoftherovers]

54 minutes ago, Linas.P said:

27, 11 years license (since 16 as that is possible in the country where I am from), Full UK license for 9 years, 4 years NCB in UK (as for over 5 years I was unable to afford insurance in UK), never had accident in my life until about 4 weeks ago, when I was hit and driver did no stop (just to be clear - I have reported it to insurance, but did not make a claim), then again 2 weeks ago in Lexus loaner... and how unbelievable - I was rear ended today... again. So 11 years of driving without accidents and 3 accidents in less than a month, none of them my fault... still I am sure insurance would like to know about all of them and increase my premium (just because). No points on license, no fines, only ever had one tricky offense 2 years ago  - it stated 40MPH when entering the roadworks, but repeaters were 50MPH, never tired challenging it and just accepted offer on speed awareness course.

@royoftherovers - that was good call, I guess it highlights that different generations has different experience and hence opinion about same things.

Now clearly, I can see the reason why we have different opinion about insurance - you guys started driving back in the days when insurance was cheap and by the time it become unbelievably expensive and especially discriminating against young and youngish drivers you became old enough not to be affect. That is the reason you have never faced issue the current generation of drivers faces and you overall have completely different experience.

Finally, I have no problem with that insurance premium increases when you have accident which is your fault, what I cannot accept is that the premium increases even more if you have accident which is not your fault and even if you do not  make a claim. As well I have no problem with Fully comprehensive cover being expensive, my problem is that Third party cover is more expensive and that overall the most basic insurance cover you can have is often more expensive than a car. Whereas it is fact that insurance is cheaper in most of Europe and somehow insurers makes more profit there as well. 

Linas, Many thanks for that information, it certainly helps me to appreciate both points of view.

When I started driving over 50 years ago, insurance was not cheap, but I suppose that everything is relative.My weekly wage of £5 had to cover all items of expenditure and I had to make sure that it did.

I wish you well in your driving future.

Regards

John

[Linas.P]

Indeed, I believe you nailed it with your question - quite different perspectives exist even in the same environment.

When I quoted for insurance first time in UK in 2009 - it came out as £30000, the second one was £36000... was it that expensive 50 years ago (considering average salary in London in 2009 was like £22000)? After playing around for a while and probably year later I finally found the cheapest car to insure which was Ford Focus 2001 with specifically 1.4l engine and it was £9600 per year. The first insurance I got 4 years ago was £2600 with gps tracker.

Now for me that was real shock, because I was driving from 16 and I had various cars and my insurance was in a range of ~£125-150 for likes Mazda MX3, Mazda Xedos, BMW 525 etc... The most expensive insurance which at the time I though was astronomical price was like £35 per month (so that is why I only insured it for 3 months) for modified BMW 525 with 4L Engine from 540. I have all modifications stated on policy and I was 17 with few days left until 18.... quite a contrast.

[jackcramerr]

Linas

Change your passport. Witness it go low by dropping a 0.

Most people here will think you are joking with your figures as probably that is what they paid for 10 years :)

[Linas.P]

That is possibility jack, still I believe it is discrimination to change the price based on nationality... or at least that would be considered as discrimination in any other context. One way or another, that is history and I don't mind the price I am currently paying... except in cases where it would increase for non-fault... non-claim.

[jackcramerr]

Linas chin up and feel proud. You are bringing more to the system in insurance where average Brit will take 10 years. Slap that to anyone who upsets you :)