Crashed Lexus Loaner

[VrmmVrmm]

Thank you Sean aka Comedian....The Ombudsman's publication clears up this matter as far as I'm concerned...to know something and not disclose leaves you in a VERY weak situation.  The insurance is a contracted service, you must be honest, truthful and forthcoming irrespective of claim fault in order to comply with the T&Cs of the contract.

 

[Linas.P]

On 9/1/2017 at 9:16 PM, KentIS300 said:

In your case, although the Lexus loaner had it's own insurance, your insurance still covers you to drive 3rd party cars, am I right? so I assume on that understanding they would like to know of the accident as you were the driver of the car at the point of accident.
Since it is a no fault claim when it is over and one with your premium in all fairness should not rise.

I had an option to choose loan/rental car insurance, but I have not selected it - so in short my insurance does not even cover it. The rest of you example seems same as mine - Lexus decided to absorb the cost of damage rather than claiming it from anyone, same as hotel decided to cover it by their own means, from my insurers perspective I guess it is the same.

[VrmmVrmm]

No!... you guess wrong....You're contractually obligated to report all accidents and incidents to your Insurers.  Fault or no fault claim of no claim.  

You accept T&Cs and sign then you hand over your premium....contract made = they give you cover you give them £££

That does not stop you from reporting....that's a personal decision you make which technically invalidates your contract, which is the same as having no insurance.

Understand too that this question when renewing is usually based on the previous five years...so for the next period whatever the duration this defect in your contracts with insurers prevails.  

Insurance isn't about the car it's about you.

Tread carefully, if you go out on a limb there's consequences...Bottom line is when asked for advice make sure the advice given is sound.

[bernieeccles]

10 hours ago, VrmmVrmm said:

Insurance isn't about the car it's about you.

If that were true, then a Ferrari would cost the same,  insurance wise, as a Fiat 500, wouldn't it ?

[VrmmVrmm]

The premium sometimes relates to the car the insurable risk always relates to you as it's you who makes the contract with the insurer...what that contract insures whether it be a Fiat 500 or a Ferrari is just a matter of choice.  The whole idea being that you don't have to insure your own car at all...just buy Third Party, and only insure the other persons car.  On the other hand if you go Comprehensive then you'll pay for your Ferrari too but as stated that's your choice.  The point I make relates to you not having a choice when asked have you been involved in an accident in the last 5 years...doesn't matter if there's a claim or it wasn't your fault.  To say No when the answer should be Yes can leave you being denied future insurance and technically uninsured even though you have paid the premium no matter how expensive and no matter for which car type.  You are in breach of the contract and the T&Cs therefore it's about you being honest...dodging with a cagey answer to save a £100 or as I pointed out saving nothing is playing games with the truth and all I saying is tread carefully insurers only want two things your money and the truth. The OP was asking for solid advice not hearsay.

[bernieeccles]

I suspect that people are wary of telling their insurance company about an accident that was not their fault and did not involve a claim on their own insurance because they know that the scumbag insurance companies will use that as an excuse to increase premiums come renewal time.

The old " statistics prove " phrase will be trotted out.

I take it that you do or did have connections with insurance companies ?

[NemesisUK]

Insurance companies share data and claims info, so even if you don't declare but  the other party do, you insurer is likely to be aware come renewal time

[VrmmVrmm]

People sometimes forget that you can for a small premium cover your no claims bonus against having to make a claim.  It's the old adage... you get what you pay for.

I'm not in insurance but abide by a life long habit of reading the small print....understanding fully my responsibilities in the contract and the key question answered truthfully.

If it costs it costs....has never cost me a dime extra and I've had claims both fault and no fault.  No such thing as a white lie....one thing we know about insurance companies is buyer beware and know what you're getting into.  Do insurance companies increase premiums when they get the chance YES because they find the risk has changed therefore it follows the assessment changes.  It's the way the business works and that's life.  Can you shop around?...YES Are they all the same quote? NO  Is the contract the same with all of them ....YES Are your responsibilities spelled out ...YES  Are you supposed to be 100% truthful?...some think sometimes!!!  Well I wouldn't like to be in an accident with any of them because it isn't the Insurance companies that are the problem...it's the chancers whose behaviour and attitude that might let the insurance company walk away that are the problem. To be honest, pun intended I'm astonished at some of the replies to this thread.  Insurance is expensive, get over it or catch the bus.

[bernieeccles]

13 minutes ago, VrmmVrmm said:

People sometimes forget that you can for a small premium cover your no claims bonus against having to make a claim

If your talking about protected NCB, then you are wasting your money. If you have a claim, then OK your NCB might stay intact BUT, the scummy insurance company will just put up your base premium instead, at your next renewal.

Many years ago, my Toyota HiAce van was insured comprehensively for just under £200 per annum with full protected NCB. My wife, one day, drove off the end of our drive and did a sharp left turn on to the road. Just to the left of our drive entrance is a BT telephone pole, wood and creosote. She came back home and parked up, then next day I noticed that the side sliding door was stoved in.

I could not understand how it happened, because I knew I hadn't done it. Witness marks on the door and a smudge of creosote and I put two and two together. She had turned a bit sharpish and not being used to driving a van had bashed the door on the post.

Claimed on the insurance for a new door, which cost about £780 from memory.

Next renewal came and the quote was now just over £1000. Asking the insurance company why the increase was so much, I was told it was because I had made a claim. It wasn't just a case of charging me a bit more but in effect charging me for the cost of my new door.  So basically, the protected NCB was worthless. Of course I told them to stuff it and looked elsewhere and being honest, of course told them about my previous claim. The cheapest I could now get TPFT was about £600. That then took a few years to drop back down to a reasonable amount for an old van.

I now never take the option of protecting my NCB, because what am I going to save ?

In fact I have come to the conclusion, that the only time to claim on my insurance for any vehicle is if it was written off.

If I had a bit of a bump and no one else was involved, I would certainly not claim and as for then telling my insurance company, well have a guess !

In addition, I am sure that everybody has heard of some one making a legitimate claim for a written off vehicle, or motorcycle, only to be offered a derisory amount, forgetting that the whole reason of insurance is to put the insured back into the position he was, before the clai., The insurance scumbags also do everything they can to either not pay at all or pay less that they should.

[VrmmVrmm]

Something definitely wrong here...my experience is the opposite??

Without making it personal I'll pose these questions not expecting an answer...just food for thought.

The person driving was or was not the main driver of the vehicle?

Why ask....The main driver of the vehicle has the NCB not named drivers.

It could be that simple or it could be something else?...Your experience definitely not my experience...I have no named drivers on my policy.  Any insured driver driving your vehicles insured in your name are usually only covered Third Party...hence your premium rose in line with the claim and the similar quotes from other Insurers...always worth reading the policy (small print) The NCB is the main driver protected not others...even if you have comprehensive other drivers are usually only covered Third Party.  This is why in a previous posting on this thread I pointed out that the insurance is about the driver.  So will I keep paying the few bob extra for NCB ...damn right i will.

 

[bernieeccles]

I was never asked who was driving.

[VrmmVrmm]

You would have to have filled in an accident report when you claimed...the driver details would be on it.    There was no third party involved to claim against as your wife had hit a stationary object in this case a pole which she also had to leave the road to hit if you see what I mean.  Your only chance was that the Electricity or Telephone pole fell and hit you.  Then there's a third party involved.  Insurance company would deem what happened as careless driving in this case and the risk rises the next time they assess.  On the other hand you state you had Full Comprehensive and No Claims Bonus Protection mentioned on your policy ....definitely something not adding up here.  First and foremost in a claim the driver is identified in the claim...the time...the date...weather,  witnesses and other mitigating factors.  You'd certainly be asked how did the vehicle hit a pole that's not if your path as you drive, so you can see how insurance put two and two together even if you didn't tell them. Quite often an assessor would call to see your vehicle, observing and checking tyre inflation, tread depth, MOT Cert etc etc.  So even if you're not asked they judge.  Even when your vehicle was being fixed they may have called particularly if they insisted on you using their prescribed garage.  It's hard to know all the facts but they check too...they don't just take your word for it when they are paying out....they do take your word when you are paying in your premium because it's your problem if you haven't declared something not theirs.

 

 

[Linas.P]

On 9/21/2017 at 12:03 AM, VrmmVrmm said:

No!... you guess wrong....You're contractually obligated to report all accidents and incidents to your Insurers.  Fault or no fault claim of no claim.  

You keep punching same incorrect claim... NO I am not, some people might be contractually obliged - NOT ME, my contract doesn't state that. The reason is that insurance is not properly regulated and insurance companies can erect any arbitrary rules they like - some does, some doesn't. As it happens my insurance doesn't have such rule and that can be the case for others.

The conclusion again is that you need to read your T&C to find out.

for other claims - my insurance does not allow me to protect my no claim bonus, no claim bonus protection was not an option I can purchase no matter how much I would be willing to pay, so it is not you get what you pay. Furthermore, "you get what you pay" is irrelevant when the purchase is mandatory. It is not service which you can opt-in or out. It is same like saying - medical care or pensions in UK are low, because "you get what you pay tax wise". Just to be clear - I am not saying medical care is bad in UK... it is just random example!

As well claims above that insurance (specifically in UK) are good value for money are factually wrong, in other countries premiums are smaller and covers are better and yet insurers make more profit. That means that insurance (in UK) is overpriced, service is substandard and insurance companies are fraudulent and inefficient, firstly for fudging their balance sheets to minimise taxable profit, secondly because of very high running costs.

[VrmmVrmm]

Quote: 

That means that insurance (in UK) is overpriced, service is substandard and insurance companies are fraudulent and inefficient, firstly for fudging their balance sheets to minimise taxable profit, secondly because of very high running costs.

That's all hearsay on your part...and a pretty poor defence of your opinion.  The contract itself doesn't state you're obligated or you personally are obliged....its implied when they ask you were you involved in any accident incident over a stated period usually last five years.  
You're OBLIGED to tell the truth!
Oh that isn't stated either... well I never.

 

With regards to what your insurer allows you to purchase or not as in NCB protection...you will see clearly that I have stated all along that such matters are the choice of the consumer, all these products are available it's a matter of shopping around.  As for value for money...that's a perception which I make for myself and you make for yourself.  Clearly I'm happy and you're not.  Maybe look at some of the choices you have made for yourself instead of saying everyone else is wrong.  I have stated also all along that generally speaking you get what you pay for.  The OP asked for advice ....and has received several points of view and it's now up the the OP to make their mind up as to whether or not they feel obliged to be truthful or hope they'll get away with a white lie...bearing in mind that not saying anything can also be a white lie.  Insurance is renewed every year and any changes have to be notified ...to include contact details and incidents.  Everyone usually has the point of view that and incident accident wasn't their fault but not notifying the other party to the contract is a breach as they to have an opinion and the right to decide for themselves.  The fact that services and premia are cheaper or for that matter more expensive in other places does not mean anything. A £40k car in the UK can be €60k in another country for the same car which is 40-50% more expensive when even exchange rate are taken into account.  This is just pointing out that products and services vary right across a broad section of markets.  People buying cars at this higher regime of prices don't turn around and say it's fraud.  The UK insurance market is assessed on the risk generated by all drivers in that market place...for instance in 2014 it was reported that 500,000 UK motorists had received penalty points over the previous three years for driving without insurance.  The insurance companies look at this and calculate that approx 33% are caught so the figure is likely closer to 1,500,000 drivers hence very high insurance costs in the UK as 1 in 25 has no insurance, this figure was 2,000,000 a decade earlier.  Don't forget the people driving with insurance have to cover the whole risk for the market they operate in...so no matter how cheap or expensive your policy is each 24 of us are paying for someone who doesn't insure.  In Germany to claim from insurance the Police must have been called to the accident scene in order to claim....this make insurance cheaper and cuts out fraud and scams.  Hit and run incidents in Germany are very serious and incur huge fines and penalties...in the UK £100 fine!!!  Facts and  context are everything. 

[Linas.P]

you just making "stuff" as you go along, some of which ranges from false to complete fantasy:

• In terms of uninsured drivers I assume you just gave random numbers and percentages as example (even though you not explicitly stated that). Here is source of facts for you: https://www.mib.org.uk/media-centre/news/2016/july/police-seize-the-uk-s-15-millionth-uninsured-vehicle-as-drivers-continue-to-flout-insurance-laws/ 1.5 million cars been seized since 2005 which makes it ~115'000 year, nowhere near 500'000 you claimed, furthermore nobody just assumes it was 33% of all cars, neither it is 1 in 25 cars uninsured, neither it really matters. It is matter for police and not for insurance.
• In terms of rules in Germany your claim is simply false, you do not need to call police if it is completely technical accident and both parties agrees whose fault it was, this is by the way EU directive and in majority of EU countries (including UK) it is the same - you only call police if somebody has been injured, if you disagree whose fault it is or if you suspect other driver is under influence of drugs or alcohol (or you are simply awkward).
• In terms of hit and run accidents, in UK "failure to stop/report" accident is Criminal and very serious offence, how Police treats them is another story, but that is failure of goverment, home office and police management to ensure that law is enforced. Your claim that it is £100 fine is false, maximum penalty is driving ban and fine up-to £5000 or even up-to 6 month imprisonment, the minimum fine is £1000 and 6 points. Again if police ignores such cases and does not pursue them in the court that is shortcoming of police, it has nothing to do with insurance.

Insurance is very simple matter and there is no need to make "magical beast" out of it e.g. there are 1 million drivers and the likelihood of crash is 1%, the average cost of claim is ~£20000 (because, ~£10000 cost of car and ~£10000 other damage) and insurer wants to make healthy 8% profit, here is calculation:

• X number of subjects = 1'000'000
• with X risk/cost = £20'000 as X average cost of insured inventory £10'000 + X average liability for other damages (injury) £10'000
• and insurer wants to have X% profit margin = 8%

1'000'000*1%*£20000 = cost of risk = £200'000'000 +8% = 216'000'000/1'000'000 = average insurance price £216 per policy.

This £216 in my oversimplified example would cover cost of damage/risk (£200) and insurer profit margin (8% - £16). There are no difference what so ever how many drivers drives uninsured outside of insured numbers, the only thing which matters is the average cost of claim.

Note: the bigger is the market the lower is the risk and the more consistent is the average claim amount.

Now from outset I would state that if profit is to be made, the service cannot be mandatory else if service is mandatory it should be government controlled and not for profit. What happened in UK - goverment simply privatised part of taxation. This is why I consider it fraud, in UK insurance makes profit from something what is mandatory to have and have godlike right to make rules as they wish without any control - that is why it is unfair.

Again, I can provide calculations of exactly how much money UK insurers washes without paying taxes and claiming "they do not make profit" - you can call it conspiracy theory simply because you don't want to know factual truth (same as government) or look at actual numbers which are in plain sign provided by insurers themselves. 

[VrmmVrmm]

I assumed nothing...

LEAGUE TABLE OF THE UK'S TOP 10 UNINSURED VEHICLE HOTSPOTS

Area Percentage of vehicles that are uninsured   &  Chance of vehicle involved in an accident being uninsured

East London 13.40% 1 in 8

North London 9.30% 1 in 11

South East London 9.10% 1 in 11

Liverpool 7.90% 1 in 13

Bradford 7.60% 1 in 13

Manchester 7.40%1 in 14

North West London 7.40% 1 in 14

Oldham 7.20% 1 in 14

Ilford 7.10%1 i n 14

East Central London 6.60% 1 in 15

The rest of the UK .4.5%....That is the 1 in 25% I used being extra generous insofar as I chose the lowest figures

Source: Churchill Car Insurance 

Quote from you: Note: the bigger is the market the lower is the risk and the more consistent is the average claim amount.

That's complete TOSH...the uninsured are included in the risk...and then the risk is shared.

In the above example East London means every 7 insured drivers pay for every single uninsured driver.  

Again I was very generous and used the rest of the UK figure of 1 in 25 saying 24 drivers pay for the extra 1 uninsured!

You state a chance of an accident is 1% that is a small risk but the chance of an accident with an uninsured driver is HIGH   as per above and that is ALL left out of you simple calculation.

As for your costings take these figures into account...your quote simple calculation does not...your chance of being killed in a road accident in the UK is 1 in 200.  Your calculation is based on the chance of any road accident being 1%...yeah right. 

• 2538 people die a year on average as a result of road accidents in the UK.
• Risk Analysis: Your chance of being killed
  • Car Accident - 1 in 200
• Who are the Victims?
  • Men account for 76% of all road fatalities
  • Age of Victim:
    • 0-15 years - 12%
    • 15-59 years - 77%
    • 60+ years - 10%
  • Road User:
    • Pedestrian -12%
    • Cyclists - 4%
    • Motorcyclists - 6%
    • Car occupants - 70%
    • Other - 8%
• The Components of a Fatal Car Crash
  • Speed: 49% of Fatal Collisions occur at over 55 mph
  • Alcohol: Blood alcohol levels of 0.08% or greater
  • Age: Teens and Young adults die the most on the road
  • Mobile: 2.8 times more likely to have a crash when using your mobile
  • Time: August is the month with the most fatal collisions
• The cost of a single road death to the UK economy is £1.79 million
• Serious Incidents by Region
  • North East - 1064
  • North West - 3634
  • Yorkshire & Humber - 3187
  • East Midlands - 2781
  • West Midlands - 2695
  • East England - 3431
  • London - 5187
  • South East - 4773
  • South West - 2640
• The Most Dangerous Roads
  • In the UK: A537 Through the Peak District, known as the Cat & Fiddle. 34 killed or seriously injured a year.

A motorist forking out £376 for car insurance can expect £287 or 76 per cent of that to go towards people's claims costs.
Aviva said nearly half, or around £141, of the £287 goes towards third party personal injury claims, such as whiplash. In 1999, only a quarter of claims spending went on this cost.Out of an initial £376 premium, £48 also goes on marketing and operational costs, while insurance premium tax takes up £35, leaving £6 as a pre-tax operating profit, Aviva said. Aviva says the Government should finalise its reforms outlined in November to scrap cash compensation for whiplash claims. The firm says proposed reforms could cut premiums by around £43.  A survey of 2,000 people for Aviva found 85 per cent believed that Britain has a compensation culture, with 88 per cent agreeing that compensation was an easy way to make cash. 

I hope you now see who is causing the costs of insurance to rise....

Four Comments summing up my stance throughout this thread

I've claimed all along that insurance is complex....many mitigating variables

Know the T&Cs in the contract along with your obligations when entering into such a contract...implied or asked

Shop around for best value and that is generally you get what you pay for...Basic TPFT...Comprehensive...NCB Cover

Advice can come from many contributors ...judge...make your own mind up ...Caveat Emptor...Buyer Beware

Summarising your stance in four comments:

Insurance is simple

Insurance is considered by you as fraudulent...you calculate no overheads for running a company included

Insurance is overly expensive and a rip off...your figures diverge from industry figures wildly...(see Aviva last paragraph above)

I and other contributors are making  up our contributions and fantasising 

 

It's been a thread with discussions that at times have been tit-for-tat...facts and context are paramount when making sense of such simple subjects as insurance...LOL

Drive safely with valid insurance seems to be the way to go...DO NOT invalidate it for the sake of a few £££ is my closing advice!

 

[NemesisUK]

[Shahpor]

1 hour ago, VrmmVrmm said:

I assumed nothing...

LEAGUE TABLE OF THE UK'S TOP 10 UNINSURED VEHICLE HOTSPOTS

Area Percentage of vehicles that are uninsured   &  Chance of vehicle involved in an accident being uninsured

East London 13.40% 1 in 8

North London 9.30% 1 in 11

South East London 9.10% 1 in 11

Liverpool 7.90% 1 in 13

Bradford 7.60% 1 in 13

Manchester 7.40%1 in 14

North West London 7.40% 1 in 14

Oldham 7.20% 1 in 14

Ilford 7.10%1 i n 14

East Central London 6.60% 1 in 15

The rest of the UK .4.5%....That is the 1 in 25% I used being extra generous insofar as I chose the lowest figures

Source: Churchill Car Insurance 

Etc...Etc...

 

 

 

You care far too much about this topic

Why don't you guys solve this the old fashioned way?  

[VrmmVrmm]

I don't have Pugilist Insurance...any advice welcome...

 

[Linas.P]

Yep... ask tobacco companies about smoking risk.... 

My calculation is clearly is just a simplified example and I have never claimed that the possibility of the accident is 1%, neither there are only one million insurance policies, nor the cost of claim is £20k - do you understand what example is? So where exactly my claims contradicts statistics widely?

Cost of £1.79million per road death is not backed by anything and UK economy has nothing to do with insurance premiums. Actually, it cost more to treat injured than compensate for death. You sound almost like cyclist claiming that there no need to drive.... so basically it is fine to charge for insurance all the money there is.

All uninsured thing is direct result of insurance companies together with government being unfair and fraudulent, pricing out people off the roads.

"A motorist forking out £376 for car insurance can expect £287 or 76 per cent of that to go towards people's claims costs." - show me person who pays £376 for insurance... add maybe 1 or 2 in the front it will be more likely.

I see you you not interested defending you fantasy about hit and run fines and German laws... fine... I guess it was not you who said that either.

[NemesisUK]

4 minutes ago, Linas.P said:

show me person who pays £376 for insurance

Ooo, that'll be me then 

Well £326 actually ...

[Linas.P]

Just now, NemesisUK said:

Ooo, that'll be me then 

Good for you then, because most people I know pays in a range of £1300-2700, myself being the lowest paying at ~£670.

[Shahpor]

That is living in London for you.

When I lived in the capital 2 years ago I was paying £700.  Since moving my last premium was £364.

[royoftherovers]

5 minutes ago, Linas.P said:

Yep... ask tobacco companies about smoking risk.... 

My calculation is clearly is just a simplified example and I have never claimed that the possibility of the accident is 1%, neither there are only one million insurance policies, nor the cost of claim is £20k - do you understand what example is? So where exactly my claims contradicts statistics widely?

Cost of £1.79million per road death is not backed by anything and UK economy has nothing to do with insurance premiums. Actually, it cost more to treat injured than compensate for death. You sound almost like cyclist claiming that there no need to drive.... so basically it is fine to charge for insurance all the money there is.

All uninsured thing is direct result of insurance companies together with government being unfair and fraudulent, pricing out people off the roads.

"A motorist forking out £376 for car insurance can expect £287 or 76 per cent of that to go towards people's claims costs." - show me person who pays £376 for insurance... add maybe 1 or 2 in the front it will be more likely.

I see you you not interested defending you fantasy about hit and run fines and German laws... fine... I guess it was not you who said that either.

Just had my insurance renewal through.

£276 fully comprensive, including a named driver.Ncb protected, Social Domestic and Pleasure including European Cover.

All questions answred honestly. I think I get an outstanding deal from my Insurance Company.

Excellent value for money, me thinks.

 

Regards

John

[NemesisUK]

8 minutes ago, royoftherovers said:

Just had my insurance renewal through.

£276 fully comprensive, including a named driver.Ncb protected, Social Domestic and Pleasure including European Cover.

All questions answred honestly. I think I get an outstanding deal from my Insurance Company.

Excellent value for money, me thinks.

 

Regards

John

I must correct myself, this year's renewal is £286 up from £265 last year. All the i's dotted and t's crossed.

Not sure where I got the £326 from,  must get these glasses checked....