Startup issues

[idlerider]

When I start the IS 250* in the morning, I often (but not always) hear a loud rattle from the engine which lasts only a second or two. My initial thought was low oil but when I checked, it's right up to the mark and clean, although it hasn't had a recent oil service. I'd appreciate any educated thoughts on the cause that other members might have.

*2007 - 67K

[johnatg]

It's likely you have bunged up hydraulic valve lifters (tappets) due to infrequent oil changes.

Use a flush additive before an oil change (every time) and change the oil every 5000 miles. It may take a while (several oil changes) to reduce the rattle, but eventually it will largely disappear. If that is indeed the problem.

Meanwhile it won't do any real harm. The more frequent oil changes will protect the timing chains as well as other benefits for your engine!

These flush additives are a bit controversial but I've used them on multiple cars at every oil change for the last 30 years or so and never had a problem even over very many oil changes.

[Shahpor]

Not that I am doubting what you suggest John, which is a good idea, but I was wondering if there might be a chance of a bit of sludge breaking off and getting caught in a oil passage?

I have seen it before, and depending on other factors (such as, as you say, frequency of oil changes), it can be very sludged up in there.

Unfortunately, it seems the only real way to ascertain how bad it is would be to take off the rocker covers and sump and have a look.

However, considering the car in this case has only done 67k miles, I doubt this is the case here.

One last thing though; if using a flush additive, isn't it recommended to do another oil change after ~500-1000 miles?

[johnatg]

I know this 'bit of sludge' thing is often quoted and I suppose if it's really bad it's possible, but a 250 that has had 3 or 4 at least (hopefully!) oil changes to 67K shouldn't be too bad.

I did once buy a Mazda 626 which had been well neglected (and had copious amounts of crud in the rocker chambers) - it had belonged to someone who ran by the principle, buy , run for 20K miles without touching it, get rid. But I bought it for peanuts at 75K and ran it for 3 years adding 80K with frequent oil changes and flushing and it ran perfectly. I only sold it because I saw and fancied a GTi version - this was over 25 years ago.

I've certainly never done a further oil change - I always change oil at 5K mile intervals (3K in my MX-5) and use flush additive every time.

[Linas.P]

I just reinforce the above suggestion by @johnatg - I had exactly the same problem few times. Changing oil helps for ~5000-6000 miles, if you do oil flush as well then it lasts longer.

In fact I have this on my car right now and it rattles for first few turns after ignition or if I rev it cold (which is bad idea anyway). It is ~10200 miles since I changed last oil and flushed it, but my excuse for not changing oil sooner is that there were ~4800 miles of pure motorway driving in the span of like 4-5 days (literally 90mph+ 24/7), so on normal start/stop cycles I did only ~5400 miles.

[is200 Newbie]

2 hours ago, johnatg said:

I know this 'bit of sludge' thing is often quoted and I suppose if it's really bad it's possible, but a 250 that has had 3 or 4 at least (hopefully!) oil changes to 67K shouldn't be too bad.

I did once buy a Mazda 626 which had been well neglected (and had copious amounts of crud in the rocker chambers) - it had belonged to someone who ran by the principle, buy , run for 20K miles without touching it, get rid. But I bought it for peanuts at 75K and ran it for 3 years adding 80K with frequent oil changes and flushing and it ran perfectly. I only sold it because I saw and fancied a GTi version - this was over 25 years ago.

I've certainly never done a further oil change - I always change oil at 5K mile intervals (3K in my MX-5) and use flush additive every time.

Got to agree with John on this one - I use flush every time (Wynns engine flush) although I don't think the brand matters. I have had the rattle and got rid of it after a few oil changes. Not found it to be an issue during ownership.

It sounds like a machine run rattle for one second - usually started only at start up - no pattern to when it did it but the oil changes cured it but like John does, I change the oil every 6 months along with a flush and at the same time, off topic, I do the caliper slide pins.

[Shahpor]

Fair enough chaps.

I admit I have never come across this situation personally, but then I am quite strict with my oil changes, and I see I am not the only one here that is!

[idlerider]

Many thanks to all who replied. I'll be arranging a flush and oil change very soon!

[Tyre Tread]

I've just bought a 10 year old IS250 SE-L with under 60K miles on it and had exactly this issue on an intermittent basis. 

Because the engine is generally so smooth and quiet it worried me a lot and I thought I'd bought a pup.

The car has a full Lexus service history and oil changed every year at less then 6k miles per year.

I think what we tend to forget is that these low mileage cars have often done lots of short journeys and rarely if ever got warm and very rarely had a good long run. The mileage on my car was almost identical for each of the last four years before I bought it suggesting it probably did the same commute, day in day out. 6K miles equates to an annual daily mileage (assuming commute only on a five day week) of 24 miles a day  - that's a cold start at most every 12 miles, probably less when you knock off the odd weekend run to the shops and other short running about at weekends. Add into the mix that if the car is being used as above then its unlikely its ever being revved above 2.5K-3K rpm and it would be surprising if its not got some carbon build up.

After a few long runs (for the fits couple of month I hardly used the car but when I did it was for runs over 50 miles) and a bit of an Italian tune up it stopped happening and now the car runs really sweet and somehow feels smoother and revs more cleanly.

Hopefully I've heard the lat of it. Been using the car for a week or so on commutes now (80+miles per day round trip)  and haven't heard anything out of the ordinary.

I hope yours is the same.

 

Fingers crossed!

[johnatg]

The thing with hydraulic valve lifters is that they have very fine and precise passageways for the oil. They have to have just the right amount of 'squishiness' to adjust to the correct length by ejecting oil but not too much that they change length to any extent during a single valve operation and they also have to be able to refill with oil very rapidly (by suction - like letting go of a squeezed washing up liquid bottle with the tip under water) when you start the engine (and during running) - they partially drain out when the engine is stopped and on each valve opening.. Now oil deposits sticky gum especially as it gets a bit aged but it starts doing so right from day one and this restricts the passageways. If it gets excessive it takes a few seconds - even up to half a minute - of engine running for the lifters to refill so in the meantime they are effectively too short and the rattle is from too big valve clearances.

The gum is dissolved and removed by engine flush additives - that's why they are a good idea. (In my view)

The gum is distinct from the very hard carbon deposits which build up in the 'rocker chambers' (there's a lot more stuff there than rockers!) - that forms when the oil is really old and it is very difficult to remove - it's almost as hard as the metal and it doesn't get dissolved by flush additive (or anything else - it can only be removed mechanically really)

I suspect that Alan's car had just a bit of gum in the lifters and giving it an Italian tune-up has blasted some good hot (and thin) oil around and this has cleared them enough to suppress the rattle. An early oil change would be good idea though - with flush additive!.

[Texas]

1 hour ago, Tyre Tread said:

I've just bought a 10 year old IS250 SE-L with under 60K miles on it and had exactly this issue on an intermittent basis. 

Because the engine is generally so smooth and quiet it worried me a lot and I thought I'd bought a pup.

The car has a full Lexus service history and oil changed every year at less then 6k miles per year.

I think what we tend to forget is that these low mileage cars have often done lots of short journeys and rarely if ever got warm and very rarely had a good long run. The mileage on my car was almost identical for each of the last four years before I bought it suggesting it probably did the same commute, day in day out. 6K miles equates to an annual daily mileage (assuming commute only on a five day week) of 24 miles a day  - that's a cold start at most every 12 miles, probably less when you knock off the odd weekend run to the shops and other short running about at weekends. Add into the mix that if the car is being used as above then its unlikely its ever being revved above 2.5K-3K rpm and it would be surprising if its not got some carbon build up.

After a few long runs (for the fits couple of month I hardly used the car but when I did it was for runs over 50 miles) and a bit of an Italian tune up it stopped happening and now the car runs really sweet and somehow feels smoother and revs more cleanly.

Hopefully I've heard the lat of it. Been using the car for a week or so on commutes now (80+miles per day round trip)  and haven't heard anything out of the ordinary.

I hope yours is the same.

 

Fingers crossed!

Almost exactly the same scenario as myself ( recently got a ten year old SE-L with FLSH and standing at just under 38,000 miles) a London based car that prob had a parking space each end of it's ( my estimate) 15 mile a day commute as the body work is in an excellent condition. But now I have it the journeys will be at least twice as long but the number of them will be greatly reduced.

I have always religiously changed all of our vehicles engine oil/filters @ 5,000 miles and will continue to do so with the IS ( probably could use the Fully Synthetic that comes out of the IS in son's polo ha!)

paul m.

[Shahpor]

It is a good point regarding the 'Italian tune up'.

I think most people assume that the gentler they drive a car, the better.

I know my mum had a related problem with hers.  After plodding around London for years, her car wouldn't idle from the amount of carbon build up in the throttle body.

In case you need any motivation, this is what one Audi TT engine looked like after no oil changes for 84k miles!