Lexus dropping 2.0T for U.K.

[NemesisUK]

So, state one's opinion, don't try and defend or justify it.

It's just an opinion after all 

One post does it ...

[Shahpor]

Well, a little clarification in some follow up posts could be a good idea, but yes, generally I agree with you Peter.

[Shahpor]

Also, generalised debating can be a good thing, as long as you are not just trying to force your opinion onto someone else, and there is a lot of that going on in this thread.

[doog442]

51 minutes ago, Shahpor said:

Now, if I can make one more observation (which is probably going to be unpopular), I do feel that Linas has been treated a little harshly here.  I have been following the thread from the start and all he did was state his opinion that he didn't like the engine on the 200t.  It was plain and simple, and he didn't attack any owners directly.  Being a diesel owners on this forum, I know what it feels like to be bashed by people over the choice of your car.

However, after he stated his opinion, certain individuals took it to task to try and dispute his opinion based on his reasoning.  The crucial distinction here is that a person's reason's behind that opinion don't have to be logical, rational or fair.

 

A fair post Shahpor to a certain degree.

If taken as a one off then yes I would agree but it hasn't been a one off. The criticism has been consistent since I returned to the fold some 9 months ago and its all been based on a few hours whilst his car had a service allegedly.  I rarely post now, the ignore function (which I never used in 10 years) doesn't prevent one from reading this tiresome drivel.

Of course we are all entitled to an opinion. I've driven the IS250 in various guises over the years and there's a reason I don't drive one and instead have an IS200t on my drive. You wont find me slating the IS250 to the ninth degree .I'll simply let you IS250 owners crack on with your ownership. If I was in your face constantly about the flaws of an IS250 you might get a bit of a sad on and I wouldn't blame you in the slightest. Of course this doesn't just extend to the IS200t, its the IS300h, RC 200t, RC300h that have been subject to the wrath of said poster even though we now know suspect he or she hasn't set foot in one.. 

It was mentioned above to simply say something once, not nail the forum month after month with an irrational hatred.  

 

[rayaans]

Just thought I would add something. 

 

 

I think the IS200T is better than the IS250 all round. 

Oh crap...... here we go again  .....

On a side note I believe a wise man once said:

 "when two opposite points of view are expressed with equal intensity, the truth does not necessarily lie exactly halfway between them. It is possible for one side to be simply wrong". 

[Shahpor]

That is also a fair point @doog442.

I was certainly only referring to this thread specifically since I don't read all the posts on here, so I have missed some of what has been happening.

As you know (since you posted in the thread I made), I have been - and to a certain extent still am - in a similar position and I can relate.  In my situation, I just try and do my best to ignore it.  The alternative would probably be to not visit this place anymore, and I like it far too much to do that.

Perhaps this thread will serve a purpose after all and encourage some positive changes on here?

[Shahpor]

3 minutes ago, rayaans said:

Just thought I would add something. 

 

 

I think the IS200T is better than the IS250 all round. 

Oh crap...... here we go again  .....

On a side note I believe a wise man once said:

 "when two opposite points of view are expressed with equal intensity, the truth does not necessarily lie exactly halfway between them. It is possible for one side to be simply wrong". 

Wise words indeed @rayaans 

What about the one that says 'two opposing views can be an equal amount of both right and wrong at the same time'

[doog442]

2 minutes ago, Shahpor said:

Perhaps this thread will serve a purpose after all and encourage some positive changes on here?

I think we should just all respect each other cars

I love reading the various forums, the GS300's the LS400's, the ISF forum and the rest. This morning at my local hospital I was admiring the lines of a beautiful IS250 and later at Tesco a totally unmolested mint 2002 IS300 . ..what a car !

[PaulWhitt20]

News just in from Lexus HQ.....

 

They are not dropping the 200T after all, due to lack of server space on the forums!

 

🙃

[dutchie01]

14 hours ago, steveledzep said:

I used to contribute to this forum a lot more when there was sensible discussion and debate, I think others did too (I'm sure some are missing of late?).  I also enjoyed it a lot more too before this style of posting became prevalent on numerous threads.  I have respect for the regular contributors with sound knowledge and good advice.  I've kept this post polite and impersonal.....I'm sure you guys can read between the lines (was tempting to insert a deliberate typo there).

It seems to me that every forum has itś own style, own identity. I love reading the LS forum, here are the true Lexus die hards trying to keep their wonderful saloons on the road. Main topics are technical, maintenabce related, restoration. These people do all themselves i just love following a restauration project, great atmosphere in this form and i just wish i was that technical, fascinating stuff. Then the ISF forum. What a joy to follow, real enthusiasts that love their cars and driving them. Seems most threads derail quickly in arranging a meet up with cake and coffee! always brings a smile to my face very positive and humorous forum. ( with great pics ). 

then the IS300 forum. all new cars of course and propably a lot of company car owners. main topics about mpg or in car entertainment systems/satnav. The debating for a debate is somewhat tiring and the atmosphere can be a little agressive and negative. Anyway i am sure those clouds will disappear one day. Here 's to positive!    

[B1001]

Having come from a 2.0T Audi the fuel economy wasn't impressive - as I get a car allowance my company only pays HMRC advisory rates for fuel. As the 200t engine is 1998cc I'd only get 12p a mile (same as the Audi). In my IS250 I get 21p per mile. That was a consideration when getting the car.

As the IS300h is a 2.4 you get the 21p mileage rate plus you'll me getting the best economy across the range - huge bonus.

I just wanted a v6, the 250 in the later model is quite rare. Took a while to find a black F-Sport. I love it.

Just another point against the 200t :)

[Rabbers]

Having just re-visited this thread after some time, I was surprised by the direction (and tone) it had taken, with people chasing their own

tails about what cars they would buy if Lexus sold them, which, in the case of an IS350 in Europe it probably never will, or whether the

200T is a crap product or not, and so forth.  Little of this has much practical bearing on what Lexus actually does, which is not to offer

everything it can make to everyone everywhere but to develop and selectively market such ranges of models as it believes to be suited

to any given market or group of markets and do so profitably.  In fact, the last post I had read was dutchie01's of 1 July, which came to

much the same conclusion but with the additional comment that Lexus' U.K. sales are so small as to be irrelevant.  I'm not too sure 

about that.

 

Bear in mind that Lexus sells as many units in the U.K. as it does in Germany, France, Italy and Spain put together, so that if Toyota was

ever to consider winding up any of its Lexus operations in Europe it would certainly not be the U.K. but, more probably, all of them at

the same time because, if measured by overall market share, they do not add up to one-tenth of the slightly less than 3% achieved in

the U.S., which is not, on the face of it, particularly spectacular either.  However, I would believe that Lexus' individual national market

shares are scrutinised less closely than the financial resources required to achieve them, and that as long as the latter are acceptable

or show realistic signs of becoming so, operations will continue.  There do not appear to be any drastic moves afoot in Europe at the

moment unless the weeding out of a product like the 200T in the U.K. is considered to be one, although it is said that many people in

the Lexus organisation, especially dealers, already considered its launch to be a mistake at a time when other subsidiaries were

actively pursuing an all-hybrid strategy.

 

In fact, Lexus is said to be Toyota's most profitable division, reflecting higher margins on premium cars and, according to some 

analysts, because of its avoidance of slow-moving inventories through a close synchronisation of production and delivery, Lexus

having as far as possible always followed a policy of not customising individual cars to order but of selling finished packages from

combined totals of landed inventories and shipments continuously underway from Japan, a high proportion of the latter pre-sold.

Insofar as these offerings originate from market-by-market sales projections made by local managements whose job it is to know

the likes and dislikes of their own prospective customers they contain - or should ideally contain - enough permutations of variants

and optionals within predetermined ranges to preempt what would otherwise be unmanageable numbers of demands for

customisations or wider choices of models and versions.  As a result many customers are happy enough to buy what they are

offered rather than what they might prefer were they to be given a wider set of options, Lexus' aim being to mitigate what would

otherwise appear to be motivational incompatibilities between buyer and seller, an aim that would be unthinkable without the

marque's reputation for quality, reliability, and good customer service in a context of exclusivity.  In this scenario, any

misinterpretations or miscalculations of local market requirements, when they occur, mean that customers who are unwilling to

modify their preferences have to accept the long waiting times concomitant to inclusion in the next appropriate production and

delivery cycles.  Failing that, their sole remaining option is to buy another car, probably a German one, or maybe a Cadillac or an

Acura or an Infiniti in the U.S., thus slowing Lexus' rate of market penetration.   However, the number of customers thus lost,

historically, has rarely been sufficient to reduce pre-existing levels of sales, which, despite fluctuations in the worldwide car market,

have mainly continued to grow year-to-year, translating into increasing market shares - perhaps better described as the sum of

several increasingly comfortable niche positions - along with considerably strengthened brand recognition.

 

[noby76]

what will be the drawback or disadvantage to the Lexus brand if they offered all models available in US into Europe i.e GX, LX, ES, and larger engine variants of the GS and IS? for sure there are some sales to be made in Europe/UK if these models are made available rather than not at all? not everyone is bothered about VED tax band and running cost in terms of fuel.... I think Lexus is missing out on potential sales revenue for not making these models available.. 

They Just need to accompany the models with some good marketing/advertising. make it the best thing since sliced bread

[rayaans]

2 hours ago, noby76 said:

what will be the drawback or disadvantage to the Lexus brand if they offered all models available in US into Europe i.e GX, LX, ES, and larger engine variants of the GS and IS? for sure there are some sales to be made in Europe/UK if these models are made available rather than not at all? not everyone is bothered about VED tax band and running cost in terms of fuel.... I think Lexus is missing out on potential sales revenue for not making these models available.. 

They Just need to accompany the models with some good marketing/advertising. make it the best thing since sliced bread

The GX and LX would not sell whatsoever. Hence, they'd be selling at prices which would lead to a loss.

Same with larger engine variants of the GS and IS. The GS450h is still available and since the introduction of the GS300h, how many cars have sold? Very few.

The fact is that if they do introduce all models, including the higher engine combos, they have to provide all dealers with demo vehicles in difference specification/trim levels - if they make 1 or 2 sales from that 1 demo in a year, its not worth the effort of having them at all

The GX and LX are sure to attract £80k pricing here along with £500 a year road tax and possibly £2000 for the first year. And at that price, who would buy it over a RR Vogue - I doubt many, if any at all.

[NemesisUK]

Not to mention they would have to provide service support, not cheap either...

[noby76]

not everyone who got £80-£100k to blow wants to be seen in a Range Vogue or X6 so i suppose there might be some sales being lost but hey Lexus knows better than me i guess.. 

[Rabbers]

It's really a question of size and scale.  Were Lexus to supply a wider range of products to the same or a larger number of markets it

would incur a whole series of additional costs and expenses in all sectors of its business starting with an expansion of its present

manufacturing capacities, continuing with a corresponding enlargement of its stocking and distribution facilities, and ending with

increased sales and marketing expenditures, all in a context of increased commercial risk and without taking a need for extra

management resources into account.  Of course, there are few organisations in the world better equipped than Toyota to finance

and undertake this sort of task, but is clearly not in line with its corporate strategy, which, expressed in very broad terms, is to cater

for big numbers with the Toyota and not the Lexus brand.  However, since the quality gap between the top of Toyota's range and the

bottom of Lexus' appears to be narrowing, maybe we'll one day end up seeing a new marque called LEXOTA, or something like that!

[dutchie01]

The Lexus Strategy is to have a controled worldwide growth of 10% each year. It is by no means trying to sell as many cars as possible and will not follow the German strategy by introducing as many cars and or engine choices as possible.

Styling will play a more important role ( hence the new LC and IS polarized exterior architecture and beautifully crafted and designed interiors). The aim is to become a brand for connaiseurs, people that will purchase the cars because they absolutely want them. Example in an interview with the Lexus worldwide m/d was Porsche. Not focusing on high volume but controled growth, high margin and strong brandvalues.  

[noby76]

12 minutes ago, dutchie01 said:

The aim is to become a brand for connaiseurs, people that will purchase the cars because they absolutely want them. 

I am guessing you would find such people in europe/UK? if Mel Gibson whose net worth is over £400 Million can afford any car on the face of this earth but chooses to drive Lexus that should tell us Lexus GB might be missing a chance here.

https://www.clublexus.com/articles/9-celebrities-drive-lexus/

 

 

[Ian J. Parsley]

One should always be wary of going beyond the limits of their expertise, but just to throw something out there...

I'm not sure the issue of which models, and certainly which variants of which models, can be dealt with separately from the overall issue of whether Lexus should be attempting to sell more cars in the UK (or Europe generally) and, if so, what it should be doing to achieve that. 

My understanding is that Lexus market share in the UK has been decreasing consistently, albeit marginally, for the past decade.

My own instinct is that this has very little to do with which models are on offer (but it does inevitably mean the withdrawal of certain variants), and much more to do with marketing. Lexus is a fundamentally different offering from the premium Germans, yet reviewers consistently rate cars based on German strengths, leaving Lexus well behind (typically two or three stars where Germans will be four or five). Most humans prefer to go with the crowd; it takes guts to stand aside and say "Actually, I'm not sure the reviewers know what they are doing, so I think I'll go ahead and spend big on a Lexus".

This marketing/reviewer problem is nothing like as severe in North America, where Lexus generally reviews well. It also sells well there, generally speaking. 

Not wishing to tell people what they should be discussing, but until the marketing is sorted this side of the Atlantic (on the dubious assumption that we want more Lexuses out there anyway - many of us quite like the fact they are relatively rare and the dealer consequently seems almost more like a family home than a workplace) then I suspect models will be withdrawn rather than added. 

But I am no expert, to be clear!

[capese21]

I didn't contribute to this thread due to the one forum member who was involved & due to being so rude in past threads, is on my ignore list. This forum is friendly & informative until that one member starts on his over opinionated drivel.   

I have been on other forums and it is always one member who drags it down to their level & spoils it for everyone else. They must get a kick out of joining a forum and then slating whatever the forum is about.

The pub bore who knows everything about everything but in reality knows nothing.

 

Ed

 

 

[Rabbers]

23 hours ago, Ian J. Parsley said:

.....This marketing/reviewer problem is nothing like as severe in North America, where Lexus generally reviews well. It also sells well there, generally speaking.... 

Agreed.  The groundwork for Lexus' success in the U.S. was admirably done in the 1990s when Toyota exploited a gap in the luxury sedan

market by offering a product that was so palpably of a better quality than anything the Americans were making that professional reviewers

were not only immediately impressed but have tended to be favourably disposed towards Lexus ever since (*Note below).  The gap was so

big and Lexus' success so immediate that Honda and Nissan, who had pioneered the concept of a luxury marque with Acura and Infiniti

respectively, albeit by initially simply re-badging the top models in their ranges, quickly started investing heavily, as also did MB and BMW,

whose marketing efforts had hitherto been somewhat low-key and niche-oriented.  In this scenario, which was further crowded by Cadillac,

who reacted slowly but significantly with improved build quality and several re-stylings, Lexus has generally managed to stay ahead of the

pack, or at least run neck-and-neck with it. No such exploitable quality-based gap existed in Europe, where, then as now, any and all demands

for premium cars in each and every country were, and are, capable of being satisfied by any single one of MB, BMW and Audi/VW with the

result that Lexus, as regards potential market share, is destined to remain a tiny speck in the German industry's rear-view mirror.  As reported

by dutchie01 in his last post, realism dictates that Lexus' future ambitions, supported as they fortunately are by high margins, be largely                                      

limited to good styling, selectivity in introducing new models, and appeal to connoisseurship.

 

(*Note)  Not that Lexus did not have a few nationalistic hurdles to overcome in the U.S., of which I am personally reminded every time I hear

the present Administration's proclamations about an "America First" policy.  Whenever I visited my employer's  Chicago head office in the

late 80s/early 90s I would find many of the guys with company cars literally drooling over the recently launched LS, not least because the

main Lexus dealer's very impressive showroom happened to be located just down the road.  Unfortunately for them, there was a total veto

on the car on the part of the company Chairman himself, who was not only Republican to the core but, for reasons I was never able to fully

fathom, rabidly anti-Japanese.  Certainly, he and a couple of other senior people were perfectly content with their Cadillacs and driver, but

there was no question that their underlings would have felt better motivated driving to work in a Lexus instead of one of the Oldsmobiles

or Buicks that were then the main order of the day. 

 

[Ian J. Parsley]

A quick glance at Lexus sales figures suggests "consistent decline" in my earlier post is not entirely accurate - there has been slight decline since 2007 but actually a stabilisation over the past few years (albeit this is a lower share of the premium market). 

http://media.lexus.co.uk/wp-content/files_mf/1499340067LexusUKYearBookbymodel9017.pdf

[doog442]

On 08/07/2017 at 0:26 PM, B1001 said:

Having come from a 2.0T Audi the fuel economy wasn't impressive - as I get a car allowance my company only pays HMRC advisory rates for fuel. As the 200t engine is 1998cc I'd only get 12p a mile (same as the Audi). In my IS250 I get 21p per mile. That was a consideration when getting the car.

As the IS300h is a 2.4 you get the 21p mileage rate plus you'll me getting the best economy across the range - huge bonus.

I just wanted a v6, the 250 in the later model is quite rare. Took a while to find a black F-Sport. I love it.

Just another point against the 200t :)

Its a shame a car is being judged on a fuel allowance. 

As a low mileage private cash buyer that doesn't concern me in the slightest but I fully understand how its influenced the car market.

[paulrnx]

On 7/7/2017 at 8:57 PM, Linas.P said:

Forum is not only for fan boys, I know it would be politically correct to flatter Lexus car on Lexus forum and get a lot of likes. But I am here not for likes and if anything nobody can accuse me of political correctness. I just say what I think from my personal experience and by compare car like for like without prejudice. 

I haven't tired that many cars from current Lexus line-up.. Once CT200h - courtesy during fuel sensor recall, once IS200t - loaner during annual service, once RC300h - 24 hours test drive. So not sure the dealership has notices anything unusual.. I had 3 IS250s in the past and know the car inside out... 

@NemesisUK - Yes and I did exactly that - "I am so happy Lexus dropped 2.0t because it was trashy engine not suitable for Lexus as a brand, hope they will replace it with something more reasonable (~IS/RC350)".

Then I was challenged by other people with their opinion... and obviously everyone has a right to their own.. so here we are few pages later. 

I suspect you can't afford to buy a current generation IS and trash everything in the range to make you feel better about your purchase. This is much better than saying you'd quite like to have a current generation IS but can't afford to. I loved my 2nd generation IS250 but there is no way I'd go back to it now. The automotive world has moved on and newly designed cars, Lexus included, are so much better than a 2nd generation IS designed in circa 2004/2005. Peachy engine and a nicely judged blend of performance and comfort but a near 13 year old design nonetheless with fairly crashy suspension on anything other than 16" wheels. Lovely cars in their day mind.