Rumour: GS being discontinued!

[rayaans]

Fresh rumour has come in that Lexus will be discontinuing the GS and replacing with the next generation ES.

We've heard this before you say! - Well yes, back in 2011, Akio Toyoda almost cancelled the GS! He wanted it to be better to drive, more angular, more precise and we can safely say that with the 4th Gen, he achieved his goals. The question is, has the time come to replace the GS? 

Now, the current ES is a huge seller in the US and dwarfs the GS sales so it appears Lexus wants to keep the ES in the range but expand the markets its available to. 

How will the next gen ES change? Nobody knows yet but initial rumours are that it'll become RWD, gain power and have better handling but then, does that mean they're changing the ES? Or just making an ES into a GS?!

Thoughts?

[Zotto]

A rose by any other name would smell as sweet   

 

[rayaans]

8 hours ago, Zotto said:

A rose by any other name would smell as sweet   

 

Perhaps so but what happens if we get a blend of ES and GS! 

It'll be like rose infused daffodil which may not be as pleasant

[Shahpor]

So, apart from being FWD and the styling differences, are the ES and GS models the same?  What I mean is, do they share parts?

[rayaans]

2 hours ago, Shahpor said:

So, apart from being FWD and the styling differences, are the ES and GS models the same?  What I mean is, do they share parts?

Im sure they share some switches here and there and apart from the GS350 and ES350, they don't share anything. 

Built on a different chassis and basically they're 2 different cars for different markets.

I suspect the new platform from the LC and LS may feature on the new ES!

[Eire Lexus]

Owning a GS is a super experience, disappointing if they discontinued. However I think the next generation ES would improve quite a bit and pretty much tick most of the GS boxes. If not I'll just get next generation IS or NX

 

https://lexusenthusiast.com/2017/05/01/next-generation-lexus-es-to-replace-the-gs-as-global-mid-size-sedan/

 

 

[Zotto]

The main problem to have a single model ES/GS is FWD: if you want more power, let's say over 230 HP, it' absolutely better a RWD (or 4WD). So, if new platform (that one used on LC and LS) permits both solutions, a single model ES/GS could be made with different power steps. Another solution  is to make a single model RWD, but if so the dismissed model would be ES, being the new one more similar to a GS with entry versions a bit cheaper.

[rayaans]

4 hours ago, Zotto said:

The main problem to have a single model ES/GS is FWD: if you want more power, let's say over 230 HP, it' absolutely better a RWD (or 4WD). So, if new platform (that one used on LC and LS) permits both solutions, a single model ES/GS could be made with different power steps. Another solution  is to make a single model RWD, but if so the dismissed model would be ES, being the new one more similar to a GS with entry versions a bit cheaper.

I absolutely agree

However, to the untrained car buyer, does FWD over RWD really make a difference? BMW have already states the next 1 series is going to be FWD and I would have thought they would be the last to get rid of RWD. Would there be a major problem to most buyers if the GS became FWD, in fact some people prefer it, especially in the UK? Looking at sale figures, FWD seems to win hands down over RWD. 

I think the new platform is going to be used, it would be ridiculous to use the same platform as its been going for a while in which case the new model would be RWD especially considering how much the platform cost to develop and not using it would be uneconomical. 

 

[NemesisUK]

1 hour ago, rayaans said:

Looking at sale figures, FWD seems to win hands down over RWD. 

How many marques offer models with the option of FWD or RWD?

[noby76]

Does RWD layout in a premium car really matter in this day and age? FWD layout has really come a long way and my daily 2.4 Accord drives and handles just as my IS300 and GS430 and more agile and predictable when compared to both Lexus's in damp wet conditions. Accord handles just like a RWD and if not careful it will over-steer. FWD can be tuned to behave just like a RWD these days without the torque steering sensation so wont bother me if Lexus switches to FWD to be honest as majority wont be able to tell the difference when tuned to behave like RWD.

[DanD]

The current ES and GS seem to be of similar size from what I can gather, however I think the GS is much sharper and better looking. The ES is far more anonymous and bland.

It would be good if the new car was to keep the 4 wheel steering of the GS F-Sport.

[Zotto]

I was talking of "problem" with FWD only because high power need to be transferred to wheels, and weight in acceleration goes to rear wheels, so a  high power engine in in GS could not work well in a FWD; in cars with less HP FWD is sufficient but even if in normal use all this power is not so necessary the run to raise engines power is only in contrast with pollution fight, for german cars lovers my GS 300h is underpowered and slow...  

So, if Lexus plans to continue selling a GS 450h, it necessarily will be with more HP than the former, and not FWD, if not we will see a ES  with smaller engines (and probably FWD). In this scenario  the big one will be  LS, and for sports oriented drivers RC,  IS and LC (RWD o 4WD)

[rayaans]

3 hours ago, NemesisUK said:

How many marques offer models with the option of FWD or RWD?

I was referring to Lexus sale figures but BMW don't seem to be doing too bad with their FWD models considering they were an all out RWD brand.

Same with Mercedes, the A class, GLA etc are doing well too.

2 hours ago, DanD said:

The current ES and GS seem to be of similar size from what I can gather, however I think the GS is much sharper and better looking. The ES is far more anonymous and bland.

It would be good if the new car was to keep the 4 wheel steering of the GS F-Sport.

I think the new ES would have to look considerably better to be a success in the UK. I think the ES will sharpen up as its essentially had the same body since it first came out. 

If it was to become RWD, I would expect it to keep the 4 wheel steering.

48 minutes ago, Zotto said:

I was talking of "problem" with FWD only because high power need to be transferred to wheels, and weight in acceleration goes to rear wheels, so a  high power engine in in GS could not work well in a FWD; in cars with less HP FWD is sufficient but even if in normal use all this power is not so necessary the run to raise engines power is only in contrast with pollution fight, for german cars lovers my GS 300h is underpowered and slow...  

So, if Lexus plans to continue selling a GS 450h, it necessarily will be with more HP than the former, and not FWD, if not we will see a ES  with smaller engines (and probably FWD). In this scenario  the big one will be  LS, and for sports oriented drivers RC,  IS and LC (RWD o 4WD)

With modern technology I don't think it would be much of a problem.

We have FWD cars like the Honda Civic Type R pushing out 306hp. The RX which is primarily FWD has 308hp. 

I think the main problem would lie with the GS-F! If the ES replaced it and remained FWD, the 3.0l twin turbo V6 which I presume they're going to be putting in it will be too much for the front wheels to handle

But there's also a solution for that - AWD!

[Upex]

Front wheel drive sucks on powerful motors, but is easier and cheaper for use in smaller output cars.

I once had a stupid car that had lots of money spent (not by me) making it a beast with pushing 400bhp and front wheel drive. Net result was a waste of previous owners cash and an almost pointless car. Nearly got sides swiped by a lorry 20s into owning it as I tried to cross traffic and it just spun up the front wheels and didn't move far. RWD or awd for anything with over 250bhp I say.

Hopefully the next lexus won't go fwd and lower powers, that's just boring and falling into line with all the others.... 

[noby76]

6 hours ago, Upex said:

Front wheel drive sucks on powerful motors, but is easier and cheaper for use in smaller output cars.

I once had a stupid car that had lots of money spent (not by me) making it a beast with pushing 400bhp and front wheel drive. Net result was a waste of previous owners cash and an almost pointless car. Nearly got sides swiped by a lorry 20s into owning it as I tried to cross traffic and it just spun up the front wheels and didn't move far. RWD or awd for anything with over 250bhp I say.

Hopefully the next lexus won't go fwd and lower powers, that's just boring and falling into line with all the others.... 

modern technologies like electronic steering, electronic diffs,on the fly electronically controlled suspension damping not to name a few has made RWD advantages a thing of the past.

as an example the 2017 4 door Honda Civic Type R packs more power and chucks out way more Torque than the current IS and GS models sold in UK minus IS-F and GS-F of course and how many of these two models are sold in abundance in UK or Europe in general? not a lot so Lexus can indeed incorporate FWD layout in conjunction with these new techs into the majority of the saloon models sold which are the none F models and your average joe would not even know it on a day to day driving.

plus sides of FWD :

less weight,

less loss of power to the wheels,

more efficient,

average joe can control car in wet,

average joe can drive car in sleet,

average joe can control car in snow

and still put power down effectively

This FWD 4 door Type R lapped the famous nurburing faster than any RWD and AWD hot hatch in the world, faster than Audi R8 V10, Merc CLK C63 AMG, BMW M3 GTS, LEXUS IS-F, new BMW M5 560bhp a handful of lambos, Porches, CLS's and Audi RS's. what do all these cars have in common? RWD and AWD layout with  more power to offset their weight disadvantage.

so in a nut shell, a properly tuned FWD car will drive and handle  just like if not better than majority of RWD and AWD layouts...Honda just proved it..

 

[Upex]

You are right Jon, that there is no substitute for power to weight ratio, hence why it takes one heck of a car to even try to keep up with a run of the mill mass produced sports bike, and that fwd offers all those benefits plus the one you forgot - it's cheaper for the manufacturer to produce (just fwd vs rwd) and thus consumer to buy (minus mark up 😑). Also, all the gizmos make fwd far far better than it was 10 years or so ago, if not less.

But, the most of the cars that use it properly ain't cheap (all those electrics cost more than a diff and some prop shaft, especially when they break lol), ain't big and comfy (as they need to keep weight down) and most aren't that nice (clearly a subjective personal view).

Personally I'd much rather a big comfy fancy powerfull rwd any day (I'm not arguing or looking to start a debate etc, as I don't technically disagree with you on any point apart from rwd being a thing of the past. Try selling the fancy civics and whatnot to drifters, drag fans, or try to sell the concenpt to the heavy vehicle market. It's hard enough getting grip on a heavy vehicle in a lot of conditions (cough most crappy non motorway/main roads) as it is, and that's with all that weight adding traction to the drive wheels. Large tractor units, earth movers and such wouldn't move at all lol. Appreciate they aren't alternatives to a new lexus, but they illustrate the other end of the spectrum). 

Everything has its place, and a decent fwd will be killer on the tracks and lovely roads and for 99.9% of most 'daily' driving, but as they say, no replacement for displacement, and drifting a big rwd is just plain fun, especially when coupled to nice big v8! 😃 I wouldn't have one of the tech tornadoes in place of my car, but would have one alongside it!

[noby76]

Thing is drifters, drag fans and heavy vehicle markets don't fall under your everyday average 'Joe driver'  RWD and AWD still have their place in motoring and I am in no way saying they are now obsolete due to advances in technologies is just most people just jump on the notion of saying FWD layout are always at a disadvantage, less traction, cars dont squat under acceleration, horrendous,  less fun etc etc when in reality they can just about do most things RWD and AWD cars have to offer without suffering the consequences of the side effects i mentioned in my previous post under the hands of your daily driver. 

[Upex]

Your right and I agree John, 

 

So long as we don't forget them effects can be the best bits, gotta try it to like it and all that, so we need to keep folks keen to try! 😃

[Jamesf1]

Apologies if someone has already pointed this out, but the ES is basically a Toyota Camry (until current model) which is why its FWD. The current model shares its platform with the Toyota Avalon (big saloon). The ES is smaller than the GS so sits between the IS and GS., but, it is priced just over the IS but a fair bit under the GS, especially in Hybrid form (from the Lexus USA website). Its place in the range is a bit odd. If IS = 3 series\C class\Audi A4 and the GS = 5 series, E class, A6, then the ES almost seems = high end non "premium" large saloons - VW passat, Buicks\Caddilacs and other big but cheaper saloons in the US market? So not sure how 1 combined model would work in the US market but compete in the class above in Europe\Asia?

 

ES

[ColinBarber]

A FWD vehicle is almost essential for the US market due to their winter months. If the ES becomes a RWD vehicle then they will have to also offer an AWD option.

[noby76]

i say leave the GS with the RWD/AWD platform and bring the Toyota Camry(FWD) back into UK/Europe as customers of these wouldn't mind whats really driving the wheels in terms of if its a FWD, AWD or RWD. offer same specs as they do in US 2.5 Hybrid, 2.5 4 cylinder petrol and 3.5 V6 280 bhp for those who want more power job done.

[royoftherovers]

10 minutes ago, noby76 said:

i say leave the GS with the RWD/AWD platform and bring the Toyota Camry(FWD) back into UK/Europe as customers of these wouldn't mind whats really driving the wheels in terms of if its a FWD, AWD or RWD. offer same specs as they do in US 2.5 Hybrid, 2.5 4 cylinder petrol and 3.5 V6 280 bhp for those who want more power job done.

Plus one (and bring back the Camry estate!!)

 

Regards

 

John

[noby76]

the looks of the 2018 model will even give Lexus and luxury big 3 sleepless nights.

3.5 V6 for me !! I can live with not having the L badge lol

 

 

[royoftherovers]

That is very nice indeed John.

Regards

John

[rayaans]

23 hours ago, Jamesf1 said:

Apologies if someone has already pointed this out, but the ES is basically a Toyota Camry (until current model) which is why its FWD. The current model shares its platform with the Toyota Avalon (big saloon). The ES is smaller than the GS so sits between the IS and GS., but, it is priced just over the IS but a fair bit under the GS, especially in Hybrid form (from the Lexus USA website). Its place in the range is a bit odd. If IS = 3 series\C class\Audi A4 and the GS = 5 series, E class, A6, then the ES almost seems = high end non "premium" large saloons - VW passat, Buicks\Caddilacs and other big but cheaper saloons in the US market? So not sure how 1 combined model would work in the US market but compete in the class above in Europe\Asia?

 

ES

I think the replacement ES would be more catered for the American market.

The GS is nowhere near enough a big seller in the UK o Europe to make a difference. They could just remove it altogether from the line up without changing the ES and they wouldn't have any regrets.

20 hours ago, ColinBarber said:

A FWD vehicle is almost essential for the US market due to their winter months. If the ES becomes a RWD vehicle then they will have to also offer an AWD option.

They already do with the GS so I dont think it'll be a huge problem. Removing 1 car from the lineup and offering AWD is easier than offering 2 cars.