IS-F v' RC-F - Depreciation

[ronaldo]

As some of you are aware, Lexus currently have an approved 2013 IS-F on sale for £37,975 and an approved 2015 RC-F on sale for £35,750.

A lot of people here are talking about the possibility of the IS-F starting to rise a little or, at least, level off from a depreciation perspective.

I guess that would lead us to believe that there'll soon come a point where a well cared for, reasonably low miles, 2008 IS-F will cost the same as the equivelant 2015 RC-F.

It doesn't seem logical - but, then again, neither does paying more for a car that's 2 years older at this stage of it's life, i.e. both less than 4 years old (where both started off at a similar price).

What are your thoughts?

[Big Rat]

19 minutes ago, ronaldo said:

As some of you are aware, Lexus currently have an approved 2013 IS-F on sale for £37,975 and an approved 2015 RC-F on sale for £35,750.

A lot of people here are talking about the possibility of the IS-F starting to rise a little or, at least, level off from a depreciation perspective.

I guess that would lead us to believe that there'll soon come a point where a well cared for, reasonably low miles, 2008 IS-F will cost the same as the equivelant 2015 RC-F.

It doesn't seem logical - but, then again, neither does paying more for a car that's 2 years older at this stage of it's life, i.e. both less than 4 years old (where both started off at a similar price).

What are your thoughts?

@ronaldo It is an interesting situation with a few interested parties waiting to see what happens I guess, as others on here more informed than I have said, an isF worth 15k-25k in good nick is still a cracking steer and the newer two G's and R's just don't offer that massive leap forward for the money, just my tuppence worth.

🐀

[lockeyboy]

Ronaldo

thatll never happen.  A 2008 car no matter how well looked after is still a 2008 car, and in two years will fall outside main dealer warranty.

the isf offers four practical seats the Rcf offers two, for that reason alone the market must diminish massively.

i can't afford either regardless... 

 

[Flytvr]

Who knows what will happen, but I think IS-Fs have got a fair way to fall yet. 

Like others have said, I don't see that the RCF / GSF offer much over the IS-F, but also, what does the IS-F offer over the RCF / GSF? 

[Mark G]

RC-F has pretty much turned out to be a sales flop, it seems to have really missed its target audience, the RC300h and 200t maybe a different story.

My thoughts on the IS-F are a little different. 

[emjay82]

I hugely respect the RCF but I agree with @Mark G that they missed the target market. Great car, but the market research team got it wrong. Although I don't think they give a s##t. I think the gap will close between the ISF and RCF for this reason but the ISF still has plenty of falling to do IMO. 

[rayaans]

Lexus dealers have a knack for making prices up and trying to manipulate the market - I guess its because most of the newer cars are generally cycled through dealers and they try to keep them as high as possible.

However, having said that, why the 2011 IS-F is more than the RC-F is beyond me. Its almost like they're making it out to be a collectors item, yet dealers don't decide when it becomes a collectors car, the consumers do! 

Having driven all variants of the F series (bar the LFA of course), there are differences between how they feel and how they drive. The IS-F certainly feels more nimble and agile than the RC-F which is a more of a muscle car. Having said that, I do think the GS-F is the best one so far, especially with all the kit it comes with as standard and how it manages to feel smaller than it is. It certainly feels more polished than the RC-F and undoubtedly handles better, has better brakes and feels more stable at cruising speeds. 

With regard to the RC-F, I think the main problems is its lack of 4 doors and usable rear seats. For a car bigger than an IS-F in all directions, the internal space is lacking. 

Get the 3rd gen IS, drop the 5.0l V8 in and give it a £3k drop in price compared to the RC-F and it'll be a much better seller.

 

[Flytvr]

I noticed that M4 prices are dropping pretty fast.

Interestingly, the most expensive M3 (V8) is going for more than the cheapest M4.

 

[Big Rat]

1 minute ago, Flytvr said:

I noticed that M4 prices are dropping pretty fast.

Interestingly, the most expensive M3 (V8) is going for more than the cheapest M4.

 

@Flytvr I've never driven the later M3/M4 Davi have you or know someone that's got one, read plenty that's about it, lots of mixed reviews, would you consider one ?

🐀

[Flytvr]

I've driven the E46 M3 and the E90 M3. Not driven the current M3 /M4 however.

My main issue with the IS-F is that I feel I have to be going mach 1 to have fun. I'm guessing the M3/M4 would be just as bad!  I still think BMWs have great steering, where as the IS-F is a little...... numb.

[Linas.P]

1 hour ago, ronaldo said:

A lot of people here are talking about the possibility of the IS-F starting to rise a little or, at least, level off from a depreciation perspective.

That is true, but not at the high-end of the price. Definitely, IS-F will start to level out at the bottom end, my prediction is that it will drop to around £7000-8000 from where it will start to rise. But one on sale for £37k will depreciate greatly... dealership might have a luxury of keeping it for sale at that price, but now imagine if anyone would buy it... They would loose £10k the same second they step outside of the dealership - which explains why that car will not shift soon.

As well nobody compares car prices by comparing the cheapest of the kind with the most expensive of the kind... you need to look to average of each and you will see that there is firm £15k gap in between, I am sure it will stay there for long time. Similar, trends can be seen when you look to different generation of any car e.g. BMW M3 e46 and e92, you can find e46 for as much as £17k and you can find e92 for as cheap as £14k. That again is beyond me why would anyone buy e46 for 17k, while they can get e92 cheaper, same here - nobody will buy that IS-F for the stated £37.975, yet nobody can stop dealership for advertising it at that price.

RC-F loosing value fast is good sign for any of us who want any "F's", because that drives prices down not only for other RC-F, but as well for GS-Fs and IS-Fs, that is obviously not that great news for current owners. But again average RC-F price of £45k doesn't threaten average IS-F owner investment at ~£25k... it might only impact certain group of the cars e.g. that particular IS-F example which is currently in dealership... lets face it dealership has just lost £10k by accepting this high risk "end-of-life", but considering their standard margins they still going to make profit even selling it £20k at loss. Same would apply to any private owner who was stupid enough to pay £37k for 2013 IS-F, instead of paying £37k for 2015 RC-F.

[Stuno1]

The isf has good reviews and compares favourably with its rivals and as such people looking at rivals often choose the isf instead. Ergo values remain ok. 

The rcf had pretty awful reviews across the board and does not compare favourably with rivals from a journalistic stand point and ultimately this killed it. You simply can not make a sports car this heavy. End of. 

The gsf seems to be doing well when compared to rivals so I expect it to hold value relatively well at a point just like to isf.

It's that simple for me.

[Linas.P]

That all is true, but when it comes to buying car (not discussing it over the internet, but actually spending your own money on it) journalist reviews doesn't matter as much.

That is true used GS-F and IS-F probably have more interest, but when it come to buying the car it is impossible not to make comparisons with RC-F. That comparison is simple - say you interested in IS-F but not the average car which is ~£25k, but more recent model and you have a budget of £35k... The option is 2013 IS-F or 2015 RC-F.. .the answer will be simple - "are you mad... of course RC-F". If your budget is £25k, you will obviously pick up IS-F and be happy. Now another scenario - you are in the market for nearly new luxury car, you want something rare ..bit exotic so MB, Audi and BMW is not an option, you have £50k to spend. Option 1 GS-F for £47k, but there is same year RC-F with the same engine (and to my personal opinion, better looking) for £37k.... now if you have a requirement for 4 doors.. yes you probably going to go for GS-F, but not many have - I would argue that for majority 2 door "sports car" make more sense (that is personal, but I assume F's are more often second or third cars in household) and it is as well £10k cheaper, you going to save some money and go with RC-F.

So again no denying negative publicity (especially correct) does no favours for RC-F, but when it come to practical buying decision the price will be major thing and as such, not only favours relatively cheaper RC-F, but as well impacts the prices for comparable models like GS-F and IS-F - that is inevitable. 

[Stuno1]

True but for me I won't be buying the rcf due to its weight and driving dynamics when this could have been perfect for when my nipper out grows my lotus Evora. For me the isf is a move backwards (as I previously owned one) and the gsf is too big. 

Agree with what you are saying around price points though and agree. Given how good the isf was I really do think they missed a trick with the rcf. 

[Linas.P]

Well, that is out of scope for this discussion. I am focusing on comparison between 3 available Lexus models, obviously there are other cars outside of this discussion like Lotus, or when we are talking about "3rd car in household" that can be Atom or Caterham as well - the actually provide tons more fun per price.

When it comes to weight RC-F = GS-F, so GS-F only advantage/disadvantage depending on how you look is 4 doors vs 2. IS-F is simply older model, which is cheaper yet has comparable performance, so in a way IS-F is just better value for money than GS-F. 

What I am trying to say it is inevitable that Lexus F's are competing with each other, so one dropping in price will affect others. I would mainly attribute it to Lexus being niche brand in UK and F's being sub-niche in the niche market - in short there are limited number of people who appreciates them, so it is like closed circle - if you add more low value nearly new RC-F to the market it will drive the price of all 3 cars. That is as well true, that by reducing average price of all 3 you will thus expand the niche to people who previously couldn't afford any of them (that is including me).

[Stuno1]

True. The isf is the pick of the bunch matching the other 2 almost for performance, having the practicality and being so cheap. The fact Lexus offer 10 years warranty also makes it a great buy and is another factor buyers will consider. The rc-f needed to be a more focused car. It is not really a family car due to 2 doors and limited rear space so is more a toy. As a toy it falls short. If I had a one car household with kids the rcf would not get a look in. I am keen to see what the LC-f will be like and how that depreciates as that car (in available forms) is getting good reviews for dynamics. It is what the rcf should have been.... I have digressed.... again...

[Mark G]

5 hours ago, Linas.P said:

That all is true, but when it comes to buying car (not discussing it over the internet, but actually spending your own money on it) journalist reviews doesn't matter as much.

That is true used GS-F and IS-F probably have more interest, but when it come to buying the car it is impossible not to make comparisons with RC-F. That comparison is simple - say you interested in IS-F but not the average car which is ~£25k, but more recent model and you have a budget of £35k... The option is 2013 IS-F or 2015 RC-F.. .the answer will be simple - "are you mad... of course RC-F". If your budget is £25k, you will obviously pick up IS-F and be happy. Now another scenario - you are in the market for nearly new luxury car, you want something rare ..bit exotic so MB, Audi and BMW is not an option, you have £50k to spend. Option 1 GS-F for £47k, but there is same year RC-F with the same engine (and to my personal opinion, better looking) for £37k.... now if you have a requirement for 4 doors.. yes you probably going to go for GS-F, but not many have - I would argue that for majority 2 door "sports car" make more sense (that is personal, but I assume F's are more often second or third cars in household) and it is as well £10k cheaper, you going to save some money and go with RC-F.

So again no denying negative publicity (especially correct) does no favours for RC-F, but when it come to practical buying decision the price will be major thing and as such, not only favours relatively cheaper RC-F, but as well impacts the prices for comparable models like GS-F and IS-F - that is inevitable. 

I think you are missing a major point here, you say "when it comes to a practical buying decision the price will be a major thing"", this just simply does not apply with some people, they buy with their heart, they spend what they can afford but a practical buying decision it is not.

[Big Rat]

4 minutes ago, Mark G said:

I think you are missing a major point here, you say "when it comes to a practical buying decision the price will be a major thing"", this just simply does not apply with some people, they buy with their heart, they spend what they can afford but a practical buying decision it is not.

@Mark G 

I always apply man maths buy it then tell Mrs Rat 😂

After all forgiveness is much quicker obtained from an angry woman than permission 😂😂😂

🐀

[Linas.P]

That is true.. maybe I applied too much of my personal preference here. I just like 2 door coupe body as a preferred shape for "fun car". But do you really mean "some people", because if that's the case then it is not a "major point". There always going to be some people who will make illogical decisions i.e. buys 2013 IS-F for £37k instead of 2015 RC-F, but generally they not going to affect the market, they just going to loose a lot of money in form of depreciation.

[emjay82]

Actual price, less 30-50% depending on the recent mood. Then pitch the price to the Mrs. Dismiss the logic, purchase regardless.  

[Big Rat]

1 minute ago, emjay82 said:

Actual price, less 30-50% depending on the recent mood. Then pitch the price to the Mrs. Dismiss the logic, purchase regardless.  

Yep I knew I wasn't the only one 😂

🐀

[Linas.P]

1 minute ago, Big Rat said:

Yep I knew I wasn't the only one 😂

🐀

 

No... quite opposite. I believe you're in majority... 

[Big Rat]

11 minutes ago, Linas.P said:

No... quite opposite. I believe you're in majority... 

Very good 😊 

🐀

[emjay82]

The ISF has set the bar pretty high as the first F. Some of us have caught the Lexus bug, like me, and wouldnt hesitate to buy another one. I wouldn't say no to either RCF or GSF, and for daily driving (non track) I'm sure both cars are still very impressive. In reality, an exciting drive is typically a spirited b Road or sweeping bend joining the motorway. I don't think I would ever push the car enough to know the issues raised by the car journalists. They're both reliable, fast and sound good. That's good enough for me.

[Big Rat]

2 minutes ago, emjay82 said:

The ISF has set the bar pretty high as the first F. Some of us have caught the Lexus bug, like me, and wouldnt hesitate to buy another one. I wouldn't say no to either RCF or GSF, and for daily driving (non track) I'm sure both cars are still very impressive. In reality, an exciting drive is typically a spirited b Road or sweeping bend joining the motorway. I don't think I would ever push the car enough to know the issues raised by the car journalists. They're both reliable, fast and sound good. That's good enough for me.

@emjay82

A great reply yes , yes from me as well fully on how you've discribed it.

Big Rat