IS-F v' RC-F - Depreciation

[JonP]

I must admit, I always thought the Lotus bit was more significant in the classic stakes than the carlton bit. Anyway, didn't the Carlton really nail the top end souped up exec express for quite some time? Whereas the IS-F has a number of competitors?

[Linas.P]

I still consider it as a type of Vauxhall and not type of Lotus and I guess that is acceptable opinion as in 2008 it was voted "favorite Vauxhall of all time". The more complex reason for this is that it lacks (in my opinion) Lotus values like light weight and agility, even technically it is largely Vauxhall less the engine, other parts like suspension only tweaked or upgraded from Senator.

In terms of competition BMW M5 was around for some time, as well as MB E60 AMG was released at the similar time.I guess what makes it different is that unlimited top speed, whilst Germans had 155MPH electronic limiter. I know for a fact with the limiter removed M5 with 6 speed transmission was capable of 301Kph, which would have been a close match.

I guess that is not my point... there I many other examples like M3 E30 or even Mk1 and Mk2 Golf GTI are becoming classic car - as such I see no reason why Lexus IS-F cannot be considered a modern classic.

[Flytvr]

RCF prices are looking very tempting. 

I reckon picking one up privately for less than £30k is getting very realistic.

RCF seems an even bigger turkey than the IS-F (in the eyes of the uneducated).

[Jgtcracer]

54 minutes ago, Flytvr said:

RCF prices are looking very tempting. 

I reckon picking one up privately for less than £30k is getting very realistic.

RCF seems an even bigger turkey than the IS-F (in the eyes of the uneducated).

Makes you wonder how sustainable a business model the F cars are for Lexus UK??

[Flytvr]

2 minutes ago, Jgtcracer said:

Makes you wonder how sustainable a business model the F cars are for Lexus UK??

Yep.

I suspect the RCF (at the moment) is going to be more difficult to shift privately. Shifting a £15k IS-F probably easier than shifting a £30+k RCF.

[Mark G]

19 hours ago, JonP said:

I must admit, I always thought the Lotus bit was more significant in the classic stakes than the carlton bit. Anyway, didn't the Carlton really nail the top end souped up exec express for quite some time? Whereas the IS-F has a number of competitors?

Yes it was the fastest thing around for quite a while 177mph, the engine was Vauxhall however all the modifications to engine, gearbox suspension etc were Lotus, it was the 3.0 litre lump taken out to 3.6 with 2 turbos added, strengthened block, uprated crank and pistons, this was mated to a gearbox from the Corvette, very capable car in its time.

[Mark G]

1 hour ago, Flytvr said:

RCF prices are looking very tempting. 

I reckon picking one up privately for less than £30k is getting very realistic.

RCF seems an even bigger turkey than the IS-F (in the eyes of the uneducated).

I think you are spot on there and the LC500 will inflict even more damage to the residuals I would imagine, I am watching the prices closely.

[Flytvr]

1 minute ago, Mark G said:

I think you are spot on there and the LC500 will inflict even more damage to the residuals I would imagine, I am watching the prices closely.

Yeh, despite how lovely a car the RCF is, I just can't see that there are many potential buyers for them. 

The higher priced examples touching £60-£70K are surely going to hammered down when the LC500 hits the scene. Unless of course the dealers just sit on them (like some of the top end ISFs)?

[JonP]

28 minutes ago, Flytvr said:

Yeh, despite how lovely a car the RCF is, I just can't see that there are many potential buyers for them. 

 

For me, the fact that it is rare, attractive and built like a tank (including the weight :) ) suggests to me that in future in may be a marmite car. 

ISF is a bit subtle, GSF is very capable but again a bit nondescript. 

There are plenty of attractive cars out there that attract long term interest despite not driving particularly well but people are happy to pay quids for. I also think the RCF may well end up with a bit of halo effect from the LC, which I freely admit would be the one to really have, if budget permitted. 

[Linas.P]

8 hours ago, Jgtcracer said:

Makes you wonder how sustainable a business model the F cars are for Lexus UK??

It is sustainable, all performance enhanced cars i.e. M3/4, AMG etc. are nothing else, but a marketing tool. They never meant to make profit or ship in large numbers, they meant to raise brands awareness. Guess what make profit for Lexus?  glorified Prius aka CT or other mass produced entry models like IS300h, GS300h, NX300h. To be honest, it is very unlikely that (half)hand build car would ever make any profit. If these F cars lose value and become widely available even better - better exposure, more people can afford them and after owning one they likely to develop serious brand loaylity. Furthermore, the Lexus itself is marketing tool for parent Toyota - and guess what even if entire branch would make a loss (which it isn't) it would still be sustainable to keep it this way, because it means million more Toyota Prius or Corolla will be sold.

[Jgtcracer]

1 hour ago, Linas.P said:

It is sustainable, all performance enhanced cars i.e. M3/4, AMG etc. are nothing else, but a marketing tool. They never meant to make profit or ship in large numbers, they meant to raise brands awareness. Guess what make profit for Lexus?  glorified Prius aka CT or other mass produced entry models like IS300h, GS300h, NX300h. To be honest, it is very unlikely that (half)hand build car would ever make any profit. If these F cars lose value and become widely available even better - better exposure, more people can afford them and after owning one they likely to develop serious brand loaylity. Furthermore, the Lexus itself is marketing tool for parent Toyota - and guess what even if entire branch would make a loss (which it isn't) it would still be sustainable to keep it this way, because it means million more Toyota Prius or Corolla will be sold.

But when you only sell a couple of hundred cars I wouldn't consider that particularly good exposure or a successful marketing exercise.  

I can't imagine the F cars are gaining much of a reputation amongst the masses, certainly not on the same level as RS, M cars or AMG.

People that know they're cars certainly respect the ISF, RCF, and GSF but even amongst them, most assume the M3, RS4 and C63 are better.  So few people have driven the Lexus cars that the majority of petrol heads are none the wiser

Marcus

[Linas.P]

Now think of IS220d and IS250. How many people do you think actually know or can tell them apart? Furthermore, if you take one to promotional even like Goodwood or for a photoshoot, even put the specs online for comparison... would anyone get excited about them? Do you think they would ever have a chance to feature in Top gear (maybe 5th gear "luxury on the budget" at best). The point is IS-F was made to shift cars like IS250 and 220d and it did it remarkably well - look how many reviews there are online, how many people praise them for reliability and low maintenance, high built quality etc. They did it first with "loss leader" LS400, they later spiced it up with F marque, if not of these not many people "naturally" discover Lexus reliability or associate the brand with anything at all. That what sets the brands image in average Jonny's eyes. Brand awareness is an interesting thing if you first time see IS250 in dealership you would not have much thought about it (pretty understated looking car), but after you seen all excited reviews of IS-F you will come straight with a positive attitude towards it.

I am not saying IS-F or RC-F are not great cars in their own right, but you don't need to try too hard to understand the economics behind them.

[Jgtcracer]

9 hours ago, Linas.P said:

Now think of IS220d and IS250. How many people do you think actually know or can tell them apart? Furthermore, if you take one to promotional even like Goodwood or for a photoshoot, even put the specs online for comparison... would anyone get excited about them? Do you think they would ever have a chance to feature in Top gear (maybe 5th gear "luxury on the budget" at best). The point is IS-F was made to shift cars like IS250 and 220d and it did it remarkably well - look how many reviews there are online, how many people praise them for reliability and low maintenance, high built quality etc. They did it first with "loss leader" LS400, they later spiced it up with F marque, if not of these not many people "naturally" discover Lexus reliability or associate the brand with anything at all. That what sets the brands image in average Jonny's eyes. Brand awareness is an interesting thing if you first time see IS250 in dealership you would not have much thought about it (pretty understated looking car), but after you seen all excited reviews of IS-F you will come straight with a positive attitude towards it.

I am not saying IS-F or RC-F are not great cars in their own right, but you don't need to try too hard to understand the economics behind them.

I would suggest that it's not the existence of the F cars that shift the other Lexus models.  I think it's Lexus' reputation for reliability, quality and high standard spec.  The fact that theyre not Audi/BMW/Mercedes possibly helps also.

Using your same logic, as the RS4/M3/C63 get good reviews from the press, it would just drive more customers to them manufactures than Lexus.

I love the ISF but the majority of reviews I read suggest the ISF is good, but the others are better.  Whether or not that is actually the case is subjective.  A lot of people are swayed by a review however and may discount the ISF of the bat.

Just my opinion obviously but I do like a healthy debate! Ha

[Big Rat]

2 hours ago, Jgtcracer said:

I would suggest that it's not the existence of the F cars that shift the other Lexus models.  I think it's Lexus' reputation for reliability, quality and high standard spec.  The fact that theyre not Audi/BMW/Mercedes possibly helps also.

Using your same logic, as the RS4/M3/C63 get good reviews from the press, it would just drive more customers to them manufactures than Lexus.

I love the ISF but the majority of reviews I read suggest the ISF is good, but the others are better.  Whether or not that is actually the case is subjective.  A lot of people are swayed by a review however and may discount the ISF of the bat.

Just my opinion obviously but I do like a healthy debate! Ha

@Jgtcracer Agree with all of that, the perfect car for all occasions does not exist, just look at M3 /M4  at the moment the number of changes and special additions being released is mind boggling the latest one is around the 90k mark.

They really know how to empty people's wallets, some will hold their value I'm sure but it's not a game I'd be prepared to play !

Big Rat

[lockeyboy]

1 hour ago, Big Rat said:

@Jgtcracer Agree with all of that, the perfect car for all occasions does not exist, just look at M3 /M4  at the moment the number of changes and special additions being released is mind boggling the latest one is around the 90k mark.

They really know how to empty people's wallets, some will hold their value I'm sure but it's not a game I'd be prepared to play !

Big Rat

A €5 car would empty my wallet at the minute (and the foreseeable future)

[Big Rat]

9 minutes ago, lockeyboy said:

A €5 car would empty my wallet at the minute (and the foreseeable future)

@lockeyboy I'm sorry to hear that matey, we've all been there at sometime or another, when I first got divorced many moons ago I had no vehicle when I was returning a property to get me back on the horse so to speak, I bought a Nissan Micra off a mate 9 months tax +mot for a ton.

Ripped out the interior except drivers seat and used it for everything and I mean everything !

It was insured under what was known as 'The road traffic act ' the mimimum you were allowed back then.

Unfourtunatley 'Microskip' as she was known suspension collapses one day and my intention was to scrap her but I didn't have the £75.00 to pay the scrap yard !  

So if you ever drive between Bath & Bristol  and see a very sorry looking Grey Nissan Micra........

Good days have returned though 👍

Bug Rat

[Linas.P]

5 hours ago, Jgtcracer said:

Using your same logic, as the RS4/M3/C63 get good reviews from the press, it would just drive more customers to them manufactures than Lexus.

And they do. Look for a second at "AMG-line", "S-Line", "M-Sport" and for that matter "F-Sport". Standard cars dressed with some badges and sold at premium. Do you think is more expensive to make F-Sport IS250 vs standard IS250? I am sure it costs the same, but the mere existence of IS-F allows to command the premium and enhance profit.

Again think about average person, not hardcore petrolhead car expert. They don't care what specific review says, the mere existence of review raises brand awareness (even negative one), if the review is positive, which most are for many reasons, than it is even better. And another thing - most of reviews will always be positive, only the biggest outlets can afford honest reviews, most of smaller ones have to make it "positive enough" not to *****-off anyone - otherwise they might not be invited to next launch conference or test drive. That is part of the reason nowadays we no longer have very definitive reviews or comparisons i.e. all outlets trying to be very politically "correct and positive" and being objective is no longer considered correct. Even when you say BMW gets better reviews than Lexus, it is not all black and white e.g. M4 vs. RC-F most reviews kind of says "yes M4 ir quicker and more agile on the track, but on the other hand Lexus is better equipped and comfortable on the road". You never find review saying - don't buy Lexus, buy BMW instead.

We know that there are only 200 IS-Fs, 14k M3s, 8k C63 AMGs and maybe 10k S/RS4s, but general public don't know and don't want to know. When they see 2/3/4 way review on magazine they assume that Lexus is equal and shares respectively 50/30/25% of the market and the choice. What IS-F ( and other Fs) allows is for Lexus to be in the same league with the German trio and to protect their "premium" status. 

When undecided person goes to look for premium car the overall impression from reviews are that Lexus is an equal option. And obviously don't get me wrong  - F marque is just one of many marketing and branding techniques, alone it doesn't make or brake a deal, but it supports other campaigns.