What to buy

Schitzo · March 21, 2017

As per my intro post, I am looking at upgrading shortly from my diesel Honda back to the world of petrol (and/or hybrid). Having mainly always had Japanese cars, I am keen to stay with them. Not sure which Lexus I want to get, but I will have around a £15k budget and would like as new as I could get.

I thought I would ask some advice here about what I should be looking at ideally. I have a family so need 4 doors and a useable boot, but I also want a car which is comfortable, quiet, but doesnt wallow around too much. I like my toys, so will likely go for as higher spec as what I can get for my money. I also now, as I start to get older, quite like the idea of an auto.

I drove a GS450h a short time ago, loved it, but my financial situation changed so that flew out of the window, so I am now debating between an IS300h, IS250 (both the current and previous model), a GS300h or GS250.

From my research, I understand that I will probably be looking at either the 2nd gen IS250 or GS250. Is a 3-4 year old IS300h with 50-60k on the clock still a safe buy? (as safe as any second hand car can be)

Out of any of these cars, which ones should I be looking at (spec wise) and any overall issues with any of them? I see that the 2nd gen IS250 is the SE-L top spec, with premier being the others. Would there be a huge difference between the 2nd and 3rd gen IS's.I did drive the new Mazda 6 which whilst was very nice and comfortable inside, its not exactly attractive to look at parked in your driveway.

steveledzep · March 21, 2017

Welcome Saul. I'd take the family along to try the cars out for size first. The IS250 isn't blessed with a lot of room in the back, so if your children are approaching teenage years you may need the GS.

Whether you go hybrid or not will be up to you, do your research relative to the use you put the car to.

t's good that you "quite like the idea of an auto"

chr15gb · March 22, 2017

I vote the gs300.

The 250 rear is only good for occasional short trips with rear seat adult passengers.

I looked at a 450h and really liked it but having just driven to the airport with three suitcases and hand luggage, glad I didn't buy it.

I don't know enough about hybrids to have an opinion but from the figures, they don't seem massively economical.

Linas.P · March 22, 2017

13 hours ago, Schitzo said:

From my research, I understand that I will probably be looking at either the 2nd gen IS250 or GS250. Is a 3-4 year old IS300h with 50-60k on the clock still a safe buy? (as safe as any second hand car can be)

That is not correct, you can hardly find such expensive MK2 IS250, unless you mistaken with MK3 IS250.

GS250 is an option, but I consider it under powered. v6 2.5l is just right for comfortable drive in IS, but GS250 is a bit of pensioner car ... my opinion obviously, not a fact.

With budget of £15k GS450h is the best bet. I know it would probably be compromise with getting few years older 450h, but GS300h is recent model, so I doubt you get one withing you budget either (the cheapest is £15.5k and it is most basic Luxury model).

That is my personal opinion, but i HATE 300h package - it is not refined, under powered, twitchy and I mean in IS package, GS is even heavier car so should be even worse. With a budget of £15k you generally talking about hybrids.... yes there is IS200t option, which is even more terrible than IS300h. Around 2012 there was MK3 IS250, which I would choose hands down over both IS200t and 300h. v6 2.5l NA petrol, brilliantly refined nice engine shared with MK2, but I understand you want newer cars and you budget allows it.

Further reasons to only consider GS450h, it will come better equipped from standard and it is actually fast car (not like 300h).

Finally, I hope you not doing a lot of motorway miles, because that is not hybrids strong point, they are great in city traffic jams - that is where they shine the most. Motorway cruising is much better in straight petrol and to be honest.. If motorway mileage is criteria, I would go away from Lexus all together BMW 5-Series diesel is a choice.

To summarise you can get top-spect MK2 IS250 for under 10k, you can even get MK3 IS250 for just over 10k-12k. I consider MK2 IS being more solid build than MK3, much better equipped standard and much more refined.

You can potentially get GS250, but it will be basic and slow, same can be said about GS300h. You can touch GS450h... but it will be well speced by default. Generally, you looking to pay same price for most basic 2014 GS300h and well equipped 2012 GS450h.

3-4years 50-60k Lexus is safe buy... definatelly. I woudl not even doubt a second buying 70k or even 100k Lexus.... if full service history is present.

Schitzo · March 22, 2017

Thanks Linas - very helpful indeed.

Was thinking about going to see this little beauty

https://www.inchcapelexus.co.uk/vehicles/is/is-25-sel/is-25-sel-nx59rkz-2962819/

Bad photoshopping aside, it looks fairly decent and top spec too unless I am advised otherwise.

Would the older gen GS450 still be a worthwhile consideration? Doesnt quite look as striking as the current generation however.

rayaans · March 22, 2017

32 minutes ago, Schitzo said:

Thanks Linas - very helpful indeed.

Was thinking about going to see this little beauty

https://www.inchcapelexus.co.uk/vehicles/is/is-25-sel/is-25-sel-nx59rkz-2962819/

Bad photoshopping aside, it looks fairly decent and top spec too unless I am advised otherwise.

Would the older gen GS450 still be a worthwhile consideration? Doesnt quite look as striking as the current generation however.

Id be going for the IS300h from that list.

50-60k is no issue, some owners on here have more than 70k on them and haven't had a single thing go wrong.

The 2nd gen IS250 has no useable space in the rear, its about the same size as a CT200h back there, especially if you're 6ft or more (which I am) and its partly because of the extremely thick and pointless seats

Linas has his own controversial opinions on the forum and hence here are mine (and Im sure more people agree with me )

1) The IS300h is very refined - Ive driven the IS250 and not much difference in refinement IMO - I also drive an RX450h so I would know!

2) The IS300h is better on fuel and tax, handles very well, like its on rails and has more space inside. Ive found that insurance is extremely competitive on the IS300h as well

3) Power - its fine - takes off faster than an IS250 from a standstill and will literally smoke it in the mid-range (hybrid mid range power is very good especially in Sport mode).

Schitzo · March 22, 2017

You guys arent making this easy - guess its time to take some out for a drive and check them out.

Linas.P · March 22, 2017

1 hour ago, rayaans said:

Linas has his own controversial opinions

Hence, I quite clearly stated it is just my opinion - I give you that "more people will disagree with me than agree". But that again doesn't mean I am wrong (nor right).

Regarding acceleration IS300h vs IS250 it is not true, IS250 faster both on paper and in reality (and lets be clear - this is not opinion). Yes hybrid has some mid-range advantage, but that is not enough to put it on top, barely equal at best. I doubt pure acceleration is criteria anyway... and if it is .... well GS450h is the only way.

What one calls refined that is again very personal, almost everything irritates me about IS/RC300h and probably GS (I have not driven GS300h)... There is no sound when you start it... so great hybrid power!.. but that won't last long before engine starts (that is not electric car... few miles EV range at best) and it sounds just awful, again if you about to accelerate it will lag at first.. considerably, then it is going to jump on electric power, then just second later ECU going to realise petrol engine needs to kick in as well, so you get lag, then jump, then lag again and then jump again (that is what I called twitchy) ... did I already mentioned petrol engine sounds horrid?

In perspective IS/GS250 will start fairly quietly (not IS300h quiet, but still) and it will accelerate instantly and continuously from 0 to 60 and more, without any jumps, twitches and just over 2.5k RPM you start hearing subtle v6 rumble. Make no mistake, IS250 is not fast car, not sports car etc. It is just comfortable cruiser. GS250 is heavier, so you will have worse fuel consumtion and it will be slightly slower. IS250 mk2 or mk3 are same in this aspect, but IS300h will be even slower (to the level I consider unacceptable).

I would point out I disagree with rear space thing. Yes IS is not LWB LS, but it has "ok" rear space for its "entry level luxury" market. Actually, biggest difference was made after 2009 facelift when rear seats were slightly redesigned adding few inches, difference between mk2 and mk3 IS is not that great to be considered at all, and comparison with CT is plainly wrong. I found the biggest problem in the back not because of leg room, but rather low roof (especially for tall people) and in this aspect mk3 won't be much different - if you want improvement you need to go GS. Not long ago I did 3000miles with 2 adults in the back - I cannot call it perfect by any means, but it wasn't like deal breaker.

As far consideration between IS250 and IS300h goes, it is just difference in your preference - if you don't care about performance (and at least my opinion refinement), but care bout low fuel consumption get IS300h, but IS250 SE-L is the best value for money car, more refined, better equipped and in my opinion better build. As far as reliability goes both brilliant.

GS450h doesn't share same issues as IS300h, somehow it got around issue switching from one source to another, 3L v6 is powerful enough, sounds great and overall build quality and materials in GS is whole level up from IS. When I consider upgrading I really look at GS450h as an upgrade, but IS300h is just replacement, definitely not "upgrade" with many caveats and compromises. It is very sensible, fuel efficient... but not as well equipped, as well built or as refined as old IS250.

rayaans · March 22, 2017

33 minutes ago, Linas.P said:

Hence, I quite clearly stated it is just my opinion - I give you that "more people will disagree with me than agree". But that again doesn't mean I am wrong (nor right).

Regarding acceleration IS300h vs IS250 it is not true, IS250 faster both on paper and in reality (and lets be clear - this is not opinion). Yes hybrid has some mid-range advantage, but that is not enough to put it on top, barely equal at best. I doubt pure acceleration is criteria anyway... and if it is .... well GS450h is the only way.

What one calls refined that is again very personal, almost everything irritates me about IS/RC300h and probably GS (I have not driven GS300h)... There is no sound when you start it... so great hybrid power!.. but that won't last long before engine starts (that is not electric car... few miles EV range at best) and it sounds just awful, again if you about to accelerate it will lag at first.. considerably, then it is going to jump on electric power, then just second later ECU going to realise petrol engine needs to kick in as well, so you get lag, then jump, then lag again and then jump again (that is what I called twitchy) ... did I already mentioned petrol engine sounds horrid?

In perspective IS/GS250 will start fairly quietly (not IS300h quiet, but still) and it will accelerate instantly and continuously from 0 to 60 and more, without any jumps, twitches and just over 2.5k RPM you start hearing subtle v6 rumble. Make no mistake, IS250 is not fast car, not sports car etc. It is just comfortable cruiser. GS250 is heavier, so you will have worse fuel consumtion and it will be slightly slower. IS250 mk2 or mk3 are same in this aspect, but IS300h will be even slower (to the level I consider unacceptable).

I would point out I disagree with rear space thing. Yes IS is not LWB LS, but it has "ok" rear space for its "entry level luxury" market. Actually, biggest difference was made after 2009 facelift when rear seats were slightly redesigned adding few inches, difference between mk2 and mk3 IS is not that great to be considered at all, and comparison with CT is plainly wrong. I found the biggest problem in the back not because of leg room, but rather low roof (especially for tall people) and in this aspect mk3 won't be much different - if you want improvement you need to go GS. Not long ago I did 3000miles with 2 adults in the back - I cannot call it perfect by any means, but it wasn't like deal breaker.

Not true, the IS250 is faster on paper yes, but its not faster in real world terms. Mid range acceleration and torque is what counts in the real world, not 0-60mph figures. Hit the brake and the accelerator at the same time, let go of the brake and the car launches off - I highly doubt that was used in the 0-60mph times. There's videos of the IS300h taking on a Merc C250 CDI, and winning. Ive also taken on 3.0l diesel Audi's and there's been little difference.

I agree there is some throttle lag, hardly that bad and no worse than any turbo diesel. The engine doesn't sound "awful" for me, you hardly ever hear it

You keep imagining the jumping - Ive never experienced it and neither have any other owners otherwise it'd be a Lexus UK crisis.

I can't sit behind myself in an 2nd gen IS unless I amputate my legs. I can in the 3rd gen IS with a few cm to spare and no trouble with headroom either. Thats down to the thinner seats and increased wheelbase. Lets not forget I am over 6ft and have had 5 people in the IS, all big blokes with no trouble.

Linas.P · March 22, 2017

I can admit I am picky - is it bad thing? But V6 sound all the way better than L4, I have tried IS300h twice and as well RC300h and all the times I really road tested them, the reason is simple - I am looking for upgrade and I am seriously considering these cars. I have even tried IS200t and CT200h .. but these are horror stories for next time.

I have tried all drive modes and all the time I have that twitchy feeling. Probably, I should mention, I was always pressing accelerator to the metal "all the way". Under normal condition you won't always press accelerator like that (arguably like a "tool") and you probably won't feel as much disconnected feeling between input, electric engine, then petrol engine. But I know it is there and somehow I am managing to feel it.. always.

The point about acceleration. I have raced my IS250 when I was trying out RC300h.. my friend was in IS250 and I was in RC300h. From the traffic lights up to the speeds I will not mention here. Same tactics "pedal to the metal" and IS250 was gone... the difference was noticeable. I have tried few times, setting Sport and Sport+ and IS250 had advantage all the time, from initial jump, from mid-range and at high-end. In RC300h I could not keep with it whatever the setting or conditions. IS250 is just faster car... ok that is ~1s maybe, but it is faster.

Sorry there is no way around it... to be honest the launch is the problem on 300h set-up - you press accelerator it kind of starts moving but just barely, then around 10MPH it kind of limps, but stalls immanently just before engaging petrol engine, and then petrol engine kicks again (by which time IS250 is at least 20m away), from there acceleration is ok... but IS250 gets further and further away. Felling is like if you missed gear... twice.

Rolling start is bit better, you don't have all that "twichiness", but there is just loads of delay and that is again enough for IS250 to pick-up momentum and get away. Most importantly IS250 is not fast car of the line either, nor it is great from mid range, auto box is not fast and there is as well delay before it kicks down, but RC300h set-up is just even worse (same on IS). Again I just confirmed what is known already IS250 is 8.4s car on paper, but realistically it is ~7.6s, RC300h is 8.6s on paper and it is 8.6s... probably 2 seconds of that are car trying to figure out how to act and the rest 6.6s are acceleration from 10 to 60MPH. That said, if it would put all the power straight away, it would potentially make 0-60 in 7s.. but it doesn't.. just tons of hesitation.

Finally, I would probably make contradictory statement - it is likely that my next car will be RC300h... because of "reasons". I not particularly like styling of GS, nor I need 4 door car, I live in London and spend a lot of time in traffic, so hybrid will be good for my valet (and for environment), I like the styling... and I probably somehow going to swallow how slow it is... I hope at least. But make no mistake, if there would be RC450h I would not doubt a second... In fact I would buy it today! And if I would need 4-doors for "reasons".. I would not look any further than GS450h. But that is me, I am not saying everyone needs to agree...

rayaans · March 23, 2017

What stalling thing? The change from electric only to petrol power is seamless. The only thing that lets you know its done that is the engine sound coming on - there's not even a hint of vibration in the pedal.

Pedal to the metal doesn't work on the hybrids - common sense would suggest it takes a while for everything to get organised. Hybrids need to be in Sport mode with brake torque to force the engine on and then launched to get the best 0-62mph time. Hence, why 30-50mph and 50-70mph are unbeatable in hybrids as the engine is already on.

Also why test an RC300h against an IS250? The RC is much heavier than the IS

Essentially the OP needs to test drive both - I highly doubt he'd get into an IS300h and find it slow, unrefined and with poor space.

Schitzo · March 23, 2017

I think I am going to have a look at this one today. Top of the range but I want toys - I would prefer lower mileage but want the extras too.

http://www.autotrader.co.uk/classified/advert/201702152352548?&radius=1500&aggregatedTrim=Premier&make=LEXUS&onesearchad=Used&onesearchad=Nearly New&onesearchad=New&sort=distance&advertising-location=at_cars&model=IS 300H&page=1

steveledzep · March 23, 2017

Looks lovely, great colour combination. I wouldn't worry about the mileage, but check for a full service history.

The description is a hotch potch of inaccuracies so I'd check everything out fully. It refers to fabric upholstery and manually operated driver's seat.....the car clearly has leather and the driver seat has memory function so must be electric.

P.S. I haven't a clue whether the price is right or not.

Schitzo · March 23, 2017

Contrasting interiors are starting to grab me now - used to like my cars dark inside and out, but Lexus do seem to do some lovely interiors and I do like the contrasting creme leather against dark colours. Looks tasteful.

And I must say - I really do like the look of the IS in this generation. Gorgeous lines.

Schitzo · March 23, 2017

So never got round to see the one in the link above today (that will have to wait till next week now unfortunately if its still there), but got to see one locally. After what was the worst customer service I have ever seen, (I am assuming naming and shaming is not allowed so I wont do it), they refused to allow me to take it out for a drive unless I committed to purchasing it afterwards. I dont let myself get bullied into anything, especially buying a car so needless to say, I walked away. Hopefully the one above at the Toyota garage will still be there next week.

The interior was very nice however, I loved the seats and how well built it all looked and felt. Look forward to taking one out for a spin

rayaans · March 24, 2017

9 hours ago, Schitzo said:

So never got round to see the one in the link above today (that will have to wait till next week now unfortunately if its still there), but got to see one locally. After what was the worst customer service I have ever seen, (I am assuming naming and shaming is not allowed so I wont do it), they refused to allow me to take it out for a drive unless I committed to purchasing it afterwards. I dont let myself get bullied into anything, especially buying a car so needless to say, I walked away. Hopefully the one above at the Toyota garage will still be there next week.

The interior was very nice however, I loved the seats and how well built it all looked and felt. Look forward to taking one out for a spin

Naming and shaming is fine in my book - allows others to be wary of certain dealers/traders - who was it?

On a side note, the Blue one looks good and is a good colour combination.The Premier has pretty much everything so should be fine.

Id pay extra attention to the wheels - they've been refurbed and some placed do a notoriously bad job so check for any bubbling etc.

Mileage isn't a problem at all - its barely broken in. It seems to be relatively well priced as well. Bang in the middle of what Id expect its value to be

Schitzo · March 24, 2017

I am assuming that the alloy colour isnt standard then to say they have been refurbed?

It was the carshop in Northampton - asked to see the only IS they had, and they tried to get me into a CT, and then a diesel Audi after actually arguing that a diesel is cheaper to run and why am I not considering a diesel. Chap then kept going on about how they sell a 100 cars a weekend and if I dont put a holding deposit down now, it may be gone. Told him numerous times I will not be pressurised into purchasing a vehicle and told him that if he mentions it again, I will just walk away. Anyway, so when I saw the IS, both the missus and I really liked it, but they refused to allow us out to drive in it until we committed to either putting a deposit down on it or buying it.

So we walked away and as we were doing so, he ran behind us and tried to give me his business card (which I didnt take) which quite amused me actually

peachy · March 26, 2017

As far as performance goes the is250 is surprisingly quick off the mark. Forget the claimed 8.4 seconds, it's a good second quicker.

However I find mid range disappointing. From say 30-50 /50-70 I found my previous is220d had much more punch to it and would easily beat the 250 when overtaking but the slow kickdown on the 250 is mostly to blame for this.

Vintagesixtysix · March 26, 2017

Hang 2nd & 3rd in a manual ...... not so disappointing.

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Linas.P · March 26, 2017

2 hours ago, Vintagesixtysix said:

Hang 2nd & 3rd in a manual ...... not so disappointing.

I believe when talking about IS250 everyone assumes automatic, manual are rare and not recommended (because of reasons). Even with slow kickdown (which I admit is slow) IS250 is still quicker than RC300h. Generally, if I really want to overtake I put it in S - which by default chooses 4 and sometimes if needed I drop it to 3. So the mid-range acceleration is slow due to slow-ish kickdown, not because lack of power. Obviously, on IS220d you chose right gear beforehand so it probably feels better (same as Phil suggested above on manual IS250).

Vintagesixtysix · March 26, 2017

You're right Linas I was teasing a bit...

Agreed on manual I would choose auto next time.

I had to re-learn shifting for the is250 as too many years spent in low reving 4 pot diesels with turbo lag.

The car is no hot rod granted.....but if you can keep the revs on or around the powerband.... it's not as poor as maybe some think for a heavy car producing 200-ish bhp.

I can generally hang on to my mates Bmw 330i (2001) and that's supposed to be 225 bhp.

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Linas.P · March 26, 2017

2 hours ago, Vintagesixtysix said:

I can generally hang on to my mates Bmw 330i (2001) and that's supposed to be 225 bhp.

that is because IS250 has more lineral power (both HP and Nm) curve... and it is likely BMW lost quite a lot more power since 2001 :)

Rebecca · March 26, 2017

I must admit kickdown on the is250 can be rather slow at times. Sometimes it reacts instantly and off she goes. It's a bit hit and miss really.

I do find previous bmw's and mercedes I've drove with auto boxes definitely respond quicker.

As for performance I'm pretty tired of reading reviews online saying the is250 is underpowered and lazy. Sure it could do with a few more ponies but I find the 250 has plenty of power.

I had a bmw 320d last year with a 0-60 time of 7.6 seconds on paper. Despite the is250 being almost a second slower on paper my 250 definitely feels quicker and is a far better car to drive.

I used to drive about in my dad's bmw 325i with the 3 litre engine and although the 250 will never beat it in a race it will certainly keep up with it.

peachy · March 26, 2017

Lexus is250 will easily keep up with bmw 325i with the actual 2.5l engine but the newer 325i with 3 litre engine will have a slight advantage.

And yes the online reviews comparing the is250 against the is350 and 4 pot turbos do the car no justice.

rayaans · March 28, 2017

On 3/24/2017 at 2:04 AM, Schitzo said:

I am assuming that the alloy colour isnt standard then to say they have been refurbed?

It was the carshop in Northampton - asked to see the only IS they had, and they tried to get me into a CT, and then a diesel Audi after actually arguing that a diesel is cheaper to run and why am I not considering a diesel. Chap then kept going on about how they sell a 100 cars a weekend and if I dont put a holding deposit down now, it may be gone. Told him numerous times I will not be pressurised into purchasing a vehicle and told him that if he mentions it again, I will just walk away. Anyway, so when I saw the IS, both the missus and I really liked it, but they refused to allow us out to drive in it until we committed to either putting a deposit down on it or buying it.

So we walked away and as we were doing so, he ran behind us and tried to give me his business card (which I didnt take) which quite amused me actually

Yes they would have been refurbished - not a bad thing - just worth checking to see if there's any bubbling/peeling.

Carshop is a bit rubbish TBH. The only reason they sell loads of cars is because most people don't really pay attention to the details like service history, condition, etc etc.

Any news on the IS?