Change in LC500h 0-100km/h time

[talaipwros]

Has anyone noticed that Lexus changed the LC500h sprint time from "under 5 sec" to "under 4.5 sec" ?

 

LC 500h

Discover the world’s first Multi Stage Hybrid Transmission with the 
LC 500h - a new benchmark for hybrid performance. Power, response and efficiency without compromise.

3.5L V6 petrol engine

World's first 10-speed Multi Stage Hybrid transmission

Powerful electric motor with Lithium-ion Battery pack

0-100km/h in under 4.5 seconds

 

https://www.lexus.eu/car-models/lc/lc-500/#CrossModelComparison

 

If that is the case, that is an impressive 3.5 litres hybrid engine . Imagine it in the GS450H

[wildpolish]

7 hours ago, talaipwros said:

Has anyone noticed that Lexus changed the LC500h sprint time from "under 5 sec" to "under 4.5 sec" ?

 

LC 500h

Discover the world’s first Multi Stage Hybrid Transmission with the 
LC 500h - a new benchmark for hybrid performance. Power, response and efficiency without compromise.

3.5L V6 petrol engine

World's first 10-speed Multi Stage Hybrid transmission

Powerful electric motor with Lithium-ion battery pack

0-100km/h in under 4.5 seconds

 

https://www.lexus.eu/car-models/lc/lc-500/#CrossModelComparison

 

If that is the case, that is an impressive 3.5 litres hybrid engine . Imagine it in the GS450H

Nearly 10 years ago GS450 was doing 0-60 well under 6s.

Won't be surprised if they managed under 4.5. Still shows 5.0.

Even so would you swap V8 for a cvt screaming hybrid?

 

[NemesisUK]

What screaming hybrid?

"World's first 10-speed Multi Stage Hybrid transmission"

If it's anything like the e-CVT in my RC there is no 'screaming' but smooth seamless progress, or in Sport mode very realistic 6 gears with rising and falling revs.

[wildpolish]

Possibly will be different than was on predecessor.

No point to shout.

Still would go for a v8 no matter what shifter is there.

[NemesisUK]

I'm not shouting? 

THIS IS SHOUTING!!

And I agree, I would go with the V8, that car deserves the aural symphony that a big V8 brings (or should!) 

[rayaans]

49 minutes ago, NemesisUK said:

I'm not shouting? 

THIS IS SHOUTING!!

And I agree, I would go with the V8, that car deserves the aural symphony that a big V8 brings (or should!) 

The multi stage is a good unit from the reviews though.

It's going to replace all e-cvts in the Lexus lineup at some point starting with the new 300h units which also happen to get more power and efficiency 

[Zotto]

Have you link where Toyota says  all e-cvts will be replaced with multi-stage in future?

 

[tayaste]

Even the chief engineer can only speculate if the multi stage will be used on other models at the moment.

[rayaans]

1 hour ago, Zotto said:

Have you link where Toyota says  all e-cvts will be replaced with multi-stage in future?

 

 

39 minutes ago, tayaste said:

Even the chief engineer can only speculate if the multi stage will be used on other models at the moment.

Here you go:

http://blog.toyota.co.uk/toyota-announces-development-new-tnga-based-powertrains

Its basically already happening. The new GS will be built on the TNGA platform and will get the multistage transmission

[tayaste]

[Linas.P]

21 hours ago, NemesisUK said:

What screaming hybrid?

"World's first 10-speed Multi Stage Hybrid transmission"

If it's anything like the e-CVT in my RC there is no 'screaming' but smooth seamless progress, or in Sport mode very realistic 6 gears with rising and falling revs.

Screaming hybrid is maybe what I call "trashy engine" sound from cars like IS/RC300h?!

Definitely not eCTV and not multi stage transmission related. To be honest if anything, the one of few thing I cannot fault on RC300h was eCVT - very nice transmission and downshifts were really feeling like instant. Considering RC500h will have proper 3.5l engine with addition of some electric magic I believe it will be quite good.... though I would still go for V8... 

 

[NemesisUK]

No thrashy engine in the RC300h. In 'Normal' mode one cannot really discern the revs, just a very faint purr. If I accelerate firmly, nothing changes, just the urge forward increases.

When in 'Sport' or 'Sport+' modes one can see, via the rev counter, the revs rise and fall as the car accelerates through the 'gears'. The ACS makes a fair fist at introducing a sporty note.

It's the one thing I was rather trepidatious about after reading reviews of cars with CVT but I must admit the RC has allayed any fears. I'm rather impressed 

[rayaans]

1 hour ago, NemesisUK said:

No thrashy engine in the RC300h. In 'Normal' mode one cannot really discern the revs, just a very faint purr. If I accelerate firmly, nothing changes, just the urge forward increases.

When in 'Sport' or 'Sport+' modes one can see, via the rev counter, the revs rise and fall as the car accelerates through the 'gears'. The ACS makes a fair fist at introducing a sporty note.

It's the one thing I was rather trepidatious about after reading reviews of cars with CVT but I must admit the RC has allayed any fears. I'm rather impressed 

Well the multistage CVT is slightly different in that it actually changes gears - or feels like it does anyway.

[Linas.P]

2 hours ago, NemesisUK said:

No thrashy engine in the RC300h.

Well.. that is where our opinion splits... the engine was hurting my feelings every second in RC300h, but I give you that eCVT in RC300h was nothing less but impressive and I really liked it. I would expect multi-stage transmission in LC to be even better (not really surprising..)

[NemesisUK]

7 hours ago, rayaans said:

Well the multistage CVT is slightly different in that it actually changes gears - or feels like it does anyway.

Well I've not driven a car with the new multistage CVT but I can say the e-CVT in the RC when in Sport mode does feel like it's changing gears and it must be some how as the engine revs rise and fall as one would expect. Using the paddle shifters, especially if the selector lever is in S mode, also brings definite gears. I guess it's all to do with the TCM adjusting the ratio of ICE to MG1 to MG2 inputs. 

Damn fine piece of engineering, so much simpler than the normal brake band operated autoboxes and so much less to go wrong.

[Linas.P]

4 hours ago, NemesisUK said:

Using the paddle shifters, especially if the selector lever is in S mode, also brings definite gears.

That is because Lexus has "artificial" gears there i.e. pre-selected transfer rates. While there are no actual gears eCVT changes the ratio and that effectively acts as gear, which gives you ability to control revs + it is very fast.

Obviously, multistage will be nothing like eCVT, but I would expect it to be much better i.e. same benefits as eCVT - quick changes and under auto mode continuous acceleration, + increased "range" of ratios, both higher ratios for more acceleration and lower ratios for better fuel consumtion. Like for example on RC300h eCVT is great for speeds between 20-70MPH, but it kind of struggles from stand still and runs out of rations past ~65MPH. In fact at 90MPH RC300h has higher RPM and fuel consumtion than my old IS250, that is because 6-speed auto has lower final ratio and hence lower RPM and fuel consumtion.

As LC is GT car expected to cruse continents maybe at 120MPH it definitely needs those lower ratios, as well as higher ratios for acceleration.

As TG explains:

Quote

If four seems like a low number, fear not – in manual mode the driver will have 10 steps to select from with paddles behind the wheel. The first three gears in the new auto ‘box are combined with three artificially chosen ratios in the CVT (that’s nine gears right there), while the fourth gear is an overdrive – taking the total to 10. It’s no coincidence that’s the same number as the V8 model’s real 10-spd auto, an engineer told us “studies have shown that a 10-speed gearbox gives the best dynamic reaction.” Sounds like a few too many to us.

On the face of it, it’s a lot of effort to go to ‘simulate’ a 10-cog gearbox. Why not just bolt on a real 10-speeder and be done with it? The answer, of course, is efficiency: with the CVT and the four-speed auto working together the LC500h can pull a handful of neat tricks.

A much higher first gear ratio means the LC500h can spin its not-insubstantial rear tyres on dry tarmac. We look forward to putting that claim to the test. The greater spread of ratios means it can now run all the way to 88mph without switching the engine on (the RX450h runs out at 62mph), and at high cruising speeds the engine can tick over at very low rpm to replenish the battery.

 

[NemesisUK]

2 hours ago, Linas.P said:

Like for example on RC300h eCVT is great for speeds between 20-70MPH, but it kind of struggles from stand still and runs out of rations past ~65MPH. In fact at 90MPH RC300h has higher RPM and fuel consumtion than my old IS250, that is because 6-speed auto has lower final ratio and hence lower RPM and fuel consumtion.

Mid range acceleration is strong in the RC300h but getting off the line, it's no slouch either. Accelerating from ~70mph to 90+mph was a breeze, no struggle and no thrashing to be heard! I was comparing the RC with my old CLS55 and at 80-90mph it is pulling lower revs than the big V8.

 

2 hours ago, Linas.P said:

While there are no actual gears eCVT changes the ratio and that effectively acts as gear, which gives you ability to control revs + it is very fast.

The e-CVT is a constantly meshed set of planetary and axial gears, so much better than the belt driven CVT of old (remember the DAFmatic?). Changing the torque input from the various motors changes the output ratio, very clever electricery can make those changes step-wise, giving the illusion of slipping a different cog in the box. 

The e-CVT must be so much more efficient than the old brake-band version of autobox and (hopefully) far more robust and reliable 

[Linas.P]

Not a slouch is subjective, as well I have not said anything about comparing it with CLS55, but more like-for-like comparison with IS250... as RC/IS300h would be likely replacement. In my comparison 300h options was not as economic for 65+ MPH drives of which I do a lot and often legally. Take for example my recent trip to continent for 3000 miles and some 1000 miles stretches at average 104MPH, where 300h would have been significantly less fuel efficient than IS250, just because range of ratios are more limited. Effectively 6th gear in IS250 has lower ratio than lowest ration on 300h. Equally, IS250 is quicker of the line, be that more refined engine or better gear ratios. Again where did I say mid range acceleration is bad on 300h? Yes I find engine underpowered and not sounding great but mid range acceleration especially taking that eCVT can keep engine always in peak power is great.

Finally, I believe that 300h configuration not inherited problem of eCVT, quite opposite I believe eCVT is one of the best parts of the car... just that Lexus optimised these cars to be efficient (in my jargon - slouch) rather than fast. Obviously, I believe that by simply putting more powerful engine would do, but multi-stage is even better option. Multi-stage allows best of both worlds, efficient due to eCVT and depending on which gear it uses in autobox, it can either be great high speed cruiser or quick of the line sprinter.

[NemesisUK]

6 minutes ago, Linas.P said:

Not a slouch is subjective,

As is calling it a slouch.... All subjective opinions.

Not picking a fight Linas but you need to be a little less defensive about your posts. I appreciate your point of view and value your input, you don't need to try justifying it. 

[Linas.P]

Completely true, my point was - lets not include subjective terms in discussion. I am not picking fight either - just saying where multi-stage will be advancement from eCVT which I quite like myself. As well I would replace "defensive" to "objective" (that holds true if I take away "slouch" from my post ). 

[Britprius]

Unless I am missing something here the two transmissions cannot be compared to each other in simple terms.

The multi stage cannot be an advancement on an ECVT simply because the multi stage cannot add power output to that of the engine. It can by virtue of the closer ratios keep the engine at it's most efficient power levels.

The ECVT can add significant power output particularly with the improvement in Battery output, and weight saving by going to lithium batteries. The hybrid is always going to be more efficient, and produce more power even if it is at the expense of the driving experience that over the years we have become used to.

With the new ECVT being able to use both motor generators to power the car in the existing GS450H would mean an increase in output from the transmission from 186 hp to something like 248 hp. Plus the saving in weight of the new transmission, and lithium batteries. What would that do to the 0 to 60 time of 5.2 seconds.

John.

 

[rayaans]

1 hour ago, Britprius said:

Unless I am missing something here the two transmissions cannot be compared to each other in simple terms.

The multi stage cannot be an advancement on an ECVT simply because the multi stage cannot add power output to that of the engine. It can by virtue of the closer ratios keep the engine at it's most efficient power levels.

The ECVT can add significant power output particularly with the improvement in battery output, and weight saving by going to lithium batteries. The hybrid is always going to be more efficient, and produce more power even if it is at the expense of the driving experience that over the years we have become used to.

With the new ECVT being able to use both motor generators to power the car in the existing GS450H would mean an increase in output from the transmission from 186 hp to something like 248 hp. Plus the saving in weight of the new transmission, and lithium batteries. What would that do to the 0 to 60 time of 5.2 seconds.

John.

 

I think you're forgetting that the Multi-stage transmission is an E-CVT. Its just got another transmission added on to it (a 4 speed for the LC500h). 

Its important to understand that the E-CVT is not being replaced, its being improved. 

With the greater spread of gear ratios it means that the new generation hybrids will run at higher speeds without turning on the engine (LC500h runs to 88mph) whilst at high speeds, the extra large cog keeps the revs really low to aid efficiency.

Combine this with lithium ion batteries as well as an updated quicker and more efficient 2.5l engine and you get a quicker, more efficient engine/motor combination in the 300h guise. 

 

To answer your question regarding the GS450h - lets go back to the LC500h. Both weigh roughly the same (I think the LC500h is slightly heavier) and both have similiar total system outputs yet the LC500h manages to do a 0-62mph time under 4.5s! 

So yes, I think it'd be a safe bet to think a GS500h is on the way for the 5th gen

[Britprius]

Thanks for putting me strait I was looking at the 8, and 10 speed AT transmissions  that are not ECVT's, and getting your discussion confused with that and the multistage THS II transmission. The brain gets easily confused when you get old or at leased mine does.

John.

[tayaste]

As did I too

[julian1969]

If i understand this correctly the new transmission in the hybrid is a PSD similar to the ones in existing hybrids with a 4 speed 'auto' box added on to allow better matching of engine / electric motor speed to road speed. I believe the hybrid GS has always had a similar setup with a 2 speed 'gearbox' in series with the PSD. Unfortunately I've heard worrying things about the reliability of this setup in the first hybrid GS, hopefully Lexus have addressed this.