Another contender

[MNMJ]

Whilst Lexus seem determined not to compete in the powerful small saloon market, Jaguar are going for it.

http://www.autoexpress.co.uk/jaguar/xe/88275/new-jaguar-xe-svr-set-to-challenge-the-bmw-m3

The XE SVR looks like a direct rival for the Alfa Giula QF, AMG C63, and M3 Performance Pack. They have also upped the power of the XES to 380PS from an underwhelming 330.

Hopefully Lexus will get a grip and make a new IS-F

[emjay82]

1 hour ago, MNMJ said:

Whilst Lexus seem determined not to compete in the powerful small saloon market, Jaguar are going for it.

http://www.autoexpress.co.uk/jaguar/xe/88275/new-jaguar-xe-svr-set-to-challenge-the-bmw-m3

The XE SVR looks like a direct rival for the Alfa Giula QF, AMG C63, and M3 Performance Pack. They have also upped the power of the XES to 380PS from an underwhelming 330.

Hopefully Lexus will get a grip and make a new IS-F

I think they will up the anti. The trademarked LCF must include a turbo, twin or supercharger to make it stand out from the base models. Hopefully this will carry through to a new ISF. 

[Flytvr]

I think Lexus misread the future. When all others lowered capacity and went turbo / sc, Lexus stayed NA. In my mind they are no doubt behind the rest and will be playing catchup. Just IMHO.

[emjay82]

57 minutes ago, Flytvr said:

I think Lexus misread the future. When all others lowered capacity and went turbo / sc, Lexus stayed NA. In my mind they are no doubt behind the rest and will be playing catchup. Just IMHO.

The new Merc has a 4.0 V8 twin turbo and seems to be getting rave reviews. Lexus has done well in other areas but need to get it right in the small saloon market (with a new ISF engine) and appeal to the masses, if they're going to gain traction on the likes of bmw/Merc. As much as I love them, another V8 naturally aspired 400 and something BHP, 0-60 in 4. Something won't help them commercially.

[Flytvr]

17 minutes ago, emjay82 said:

The new Merc has a 4.0 V8 twin turbo and seems to be getting rave reviews. Lexus has done well in other areas but need to get it right in the small saloon market (with a new ISF engine) and appeal to the masses, if they're going to gain traction on the likes of bmw/Merc. As much as I love them, another V8 naturally aspired 400 and something BHP, 0-60 in 4. Something won't help them commercially.

Yes, interesting times. 

I was talking the chief technician at my dealer the other day, and he maintains that the IS-F is the best (affordable) F that Lexus has ever made. Obviously this excludes the 'cheap' LFA.

[Linas.P]

We need to understand that situation is different in US. UK is really just niche market and Lexus offering is very poor to say the least. in US they have IS350, which might not be comparable to M3, C63 or some special edition Jaguar SVR, but easily cover that mid range saloon which is missing in UK. Especially, if you get F-Sport styling IS350 both looks and delivers (306hp, 5.6s 0-60). As well I don't think they are wrong, if you really want to have fun you probably as well want to have coupe, even for BMW I would consider M4 if I go for M, or for MB I would go for Coupe C63 rather than saloon.... In other hand I guess IS-F would not hurt anyone, but considering it is going to be low volume and each car cost a lot of money to certify in the market they went after one which will be selling 80%, not 20%.

As well I would not agree NA was mistake, that is exactly distinctive feature why I would consider RC-F or IS-F or BMW M3 e92 rather than newer M4. In all fairness if M3 e92 is not an option I would rather go for new M2.. .as it is more drivers car and more fun to drive than M4...... I understand that fuel consumtion and emissions comes to play here, but there is nothing more fun than driving NA V8 and that what should matter for performance car... I would say the only issue is that in UK they don't have "middle tier models at all". 200t is trashy screamer, which would be suitable maybe for golf, 300h is boring juddering unrefined compliance vehicle and then it jumps straight to mad world of RC-F 5L V8 which is not necessary practical. 

At the same time BMW has full spread from 1.6L petrol, to 3L twin-turbo, same range for diesels and even compliance plug-in hybrid 330e. Again I would favour older BMW M3 coupe over new turbo M4, but 80% of the market would be long satisfied with lesser 330, 335, 340i or even 335d before considering M (and same applies to 4-series), so M4 in the end is just statement rather than standalone vehicle line, if you non-track goer you would not benefit in any way choosing M4 over 440i.. even 430i.. So the profit is generated in lesser models and I am sure BMW sold probably 60% of 420d alone, more premium loaded models are meant to give some choice for more demanding customers and keep them with brand and top performance vehicles are marketing, poster cars etc.

So in US (their main market) Lexus doing just right, they have 2.0t for emissions, they have 3.0 which is kind of makes sense only in AWD, they have 3.5 which has proper performance and they have poster car RC-F (it is marketing after all, 2 doors looks better on poster than 4).. Loosing few sales to Jaguar SVR would not hurt Lexus, because F marque fights poster and not sales war.

[Big Rat]

My personal view is having had many differing petrol turbo charged engines V's straights boxer and so on, I fully accept downsizing/emissions and so on but I just love no ifs ,no buts the simplicity that is normally aspirated.

But I know if I want to continue to drive the kind of vehicles I enjoy I will have to change the ISF eventually,I've not mentioned any other manufacturer or model because out of all the current contenders - nothing appeals, happy with the 'F' and as I've said on here before if it's to be something more modern I will bide my time for a GSF.

And the fact remains if you what to go quicker than a normally aspirated 5.0V8 takes you on public roads, now here is the controversial comment invest in some high quality driver training, and practice at it and implement when the road conditions allow.

It works believe you me.

Big Rat

 

 

[Mark G]

That is a great looking car, and that for me sums it up "great looking", while 500-550 bhp makes the isf look underpowered, it is not an issue for me, I can make very very good progress when I want to and the conditions are right  and I have never found myself, when exiting a corner or carrying out an overtake wishing the car had more power.

The BHP thing happened in motorcycling for a number of years, it just crept up and up, it was just bragging rights really, it was impossible to use most of the power on the road, but people kept buying, including me for a while, and I think this is where, to a certain degree we are going with cars, or is it me just getting old..............answers on a postcard.............

[Big Rat]

3 minutes ago, Mark G said:

That is a great looking car, and that for me sums it up "great looking", while 500-550 bhp makes the isf look underpowered, it is not an issue for me, I can make very very good progress when I want to and the conditions are right  and I have never found myself, when exiting a corner or carrying out an overtake wishing the car had more power.

The BHP thing happened in motorcycling for a number of years, it just crept up and up, it was just bragging rights really, it was impossible to use most of the power on the road, but people kept buying, including me for a while, and I think this is where, to a certain degree we are going with cars, or is it me just getting old..............answers on a postcard.............

@Mark G Now there speaks the voice of experience, a man after my own heart, hang on a minute I don't mean like that....... 😂

[JonP]

I know exactly what you mean, I'm very happy with the combination of power, comfort and reliability that the F has, much less interested in chasing bragging rights.

[Mark G]

2 minutes ago, JonP said:

I know exactly what you mean, I'm very happy with the combination of power, comfort and reliability that the F has, much less interested in chasing bragging rights.

Yes Jon, and to be honest I know turbocharging helps with emissions but for me it is just 2 more very expensive things that could go wrong, although not with a Lexus, obviously!!!

[Big Rat]

I realised it I suppose a couple of years ago when we went as a group to the Ring, I had a 911 Gt3 and there were some other similar powered cars as well.

One of the group had a Caterham something or other can't remember the spec but it was a lot less than we had in BHP it was how do I put this........... very one sided 🤣

Big Rat

[Big Rat]

1 hour ago, Linas.P said:

We need to understand that situation is different US. UK is really just niche market and Lexus offering is very poor to say the least. in US they have IS350, which might not be comparable to M3, C63 or some special edition Jaguar SVR, but easily cover that mid range saloon which is missing in UK. Especially, if you get F-Sport styling IS350 both looks and delivers (306hp, 5.6s 0-60). As well I don't think they are wrong, if you really want to have fun you probably as well want to have coupe, even for BMW I would consider M4 if I go for M, or for MB I would go for Coupe C63 rather than saloon.... In other hand I guess IS-F would not hurt anyone, but considering it is going to be low volume and each car cost a lot of money to certify in the market they went after one which will be selling 80%, not 20%.

As well I would not agree NA was mistake, that is exactly distinctive feature why I would consider RC-F or IS-F or BMW M3 e92 rather than newer M4. In all fairness if M3 e92 is not an option I would rather go for new M2.. .as it is more drivers car and more fun to drive than M4...... I understand that fuel consumtion and emissions comes to play here, but there is nothing more fun than driving NA V8 and that what should matter for performance car... I would say the only issue is that in UK they don't have "middle tier models at all". 200t is trashy screamer, which would be suitable maybe for golf, 300h is boring juddering unrefined compliance vehicle and then it jumps straight to mad world of RC-F 5L V8 which is not necessary practical. 

At the same time BMW has full spread from 1.6L petrol, to 3L twin-turbo, same range for diesels and even compliance plug-in hybrid 330e. Again I would favour older BMW M3 coupe over new turbo M4, but 80% of the market would be long satisfied with lesser 330, 335, 340i or even 335d before considering M (and same applies to 4-series), so M4 in the end is just statement rather than standalone vehicle line, if you non-track goer you would not benefit in any way choosing M4 over 440i.. even 430i.. So the profit is generated in lesser models and I am sure BMW sold probably 60% of 420d alone, more premium loaded models are meant to give some choice for more demanding customers and keep them with brand and top performance vehicles are marketing, poster cars etc.

So in US (their main market) Lexus doing just right, they have 2.0t for emissions, they have 3.0 which is kind of makes sense only in AWD, they have 3.5 which has proper performance and they have poster car RC-F (it is marketing after all, 2 doors looks better on poster than 4).. Loosing few sales to Jaguar SVR would not hurt Lexus, because F marque fights poster and not sales war.

@linas I like detailed posts such as this because it shows others on the forum what ever Lexus they drive the car knowledge some on here have, and are happy to impart that knowledge for i think it Benifits all and is the lifeblood.

Good post.

Big Rat

[Linas.P]

Well, Lexus is not exactly light, so comparison with Caterham is not very close one..

I would add... I don't mind turbo, I don't mind hybrid as long as underlying engine has sufficient volume. That mean engine needs to be powerful enough on its own at any RPM to give you reasonable torque and at the same time acceleration. When you are happy with that it is fine to add turbo or electric motor to assist the engine, to improve emissions etc. However 2l T will never be sufficient to move car weighting 1700kg without feeling underpowered and trashy, similarly 3l T will never be as much fun and thrill as V8... and here is where I found itmost surprising. People do not buy performance cars for economy... so why care. Every petrol head would agree that NA V8 is king, maybe some rare V10 or exotic V12, not because they are most efficient or most powerful, but because they have right power at right time and they give that proper experience. I personally consider M3 e92 and IS-F to have possibly the best engine... and I am sure M4 is better on paper, but it is synthetic and will never feel as "live" as M3 or IS-F for that matter. As well am very happy with RC-F engine choice... at least I have something to follow in future.

[emjay82]

We don't really want the F's to be too popular, it's part of the charm for me. I've literally just been talking with a Jaguar driver who recognised my 'F Sport', I couldn't be bothered to explain on this occasion 😁 

[Linas.P]

9 minutes ago, Big Rat said:

@linas I like detailed posts such as this because it shows others on the forum what ever Lexus they drive the car knowledge some on here have, and are happy to impart that knowledge for i think it Benifits all and is the lifeblood.

Good post.

Big Rat

no problem -  I am just one very opinionated petrol head :) it is very exciting if anyone can find any value in my posts.

[Linas.P]

4 minutes ago, emjay82 said:

We don't really want the F's to be too popular, it's part of the charm for me. I've literally just been talking with a Jaguar driver who recognised my 'F Sport', I couldn't be bothered to explain on this occasion 😁 

"Calling it F-sport".... at least he tried.. that is progress. I agree with you, Lexus has ticked right boxes to make car unique and that means the car will have residual value, while conventional Turbo super-efficient counterparts will be efficiently recycled into beer cans....   

[Chuckie478]

Jaguar have gone straight in with a bit of a sledgehammer powerplant by the look of it.  I'm assuming it's a similar engine to the older XFR and that power (and not forgetting the all important torque you get with a supercharger) was hilarious in the bigger car.  No idea on the weight difference between the 2 but the XEF (or SVR or whatever they're calling it) is going to be quick.  Shame they've ruined the rear with that awful spoiler.

To be fair all of the rivals Jaguar are going for appear to have issues IMO.  The C63 (or C Class in general) saloon looks terrible at the back and the inside looks like they forgot a screen and bolted one in at the end.  M3/4 aren't getting very good reviews unless you get the competition pack which is very expensive.  RS4 is soon to be replaced. 

Lucky person who has the problem of trying to decide which of those new cars to have.  Certainly won't be me.

[Big Rat]

I've not heard particularly good things about the Jag build quality in the smaller cars, have spoken with a couple of nearish neighbors both have petrol XE's, less than 12-14 months old with repeated small to medium problems with less than interested dealers.

Shame as on paper - power - looks they are alternatives to 3 series A4 and the like, owning a Mercedes the dealerships would stop that if I was in the market for the newish big engine stuff,  Audi nope same reasons.

The BMW as @Chuckie478 mentions with competition pack have better suspension control than the 'standard M3/M4.

Big Rat

[Flytvr]

49 minutes ago, emjay82 said:

We don't really want the F's to be too popular, it's part of the charm for me. I've literally just been talking with a Jaguar driver who recognised my 'F Sport', I couldn't be bothered to explain on this occasion 😁 

I 'met' a Jaguar driver coming back from Wales. He was behind me in a queue of traffic. As we overtook I think he got a bit of a shock from the Lexus acceleration. :)

[Linas.P]

9 minutes ago, Flytvr said:

I 'met' a Jaguar driver coming back from Wales. He was behind me in a queue of traffic. As we overtook I think he got a bit of a shock from the Lexus acceleration. :)

That is really thing of particularly IS-F, whereas newer GS-F or RC-F looks very aggressive and fast... IS-F looks so subtle and understated (perfect sleeper) so nobody expects to be stabbed multiple time in a matter of seconds.... guy in Jag obviously had no chance of knowing that there is 5L V8 coming his way (or rather the way away from him...) 

[Flytvr]

Best bit, the Mrs was asleep right up until that point ;)

[Warrington guy]

My son has a 335 xdrive deisel . He s right up my backside up 100mph . Neck and neck up to 60 mph . Love the isf but like you guys say slowly falling behind . Ile still take the isf for look alone 

[Flytvr]

I've never been 100mph. :)

Is the 335d mapped?

[Warrington guy]

No standard 65 plate 3 litre twin turbo  four wheel drive . 0-60 4. 6 sec brilliant car . Just interior put me off . We did nearly 400 miles round trip to Wembley and took 50 quid in juice .