Infiniti G60 2.0 T

[DanD]

Don't you think that, in this day and age, engine capacity and 0-60 figures are rather outdated benchmarks?

 

[Linas.P]

Completely agree.. that is why 7.2s or 8.6s (in case of 300h) are awful figures.

In all seriousness now... 0-60 time means nothing. The way the car gets there does... and in case of both 200t and 300h it is awful, not the time, but the feeling. My IS250 is not much faster (8.4 official, though it is closer to 7.5-7.6 by all accounts), but I enjoy every second out of those 8... hence I often find myself speeding little bit... you see 8 probably not enough. 

[noby76]

17 hours ago, Linas.P said:

The way the car gets there does... and in case of both 200t and 300h it is awful, not the time, but the feeling.

i think trying to expect 6 cylinder characteristics from a 4 cylinder in terms of sound is asking a bit too much. any 4 cylinder car be it from Bmw, Mercedez, Audi or Lexus will never be as smooth/refined as a 3.2 V6 engine from Vauxhall or Ford. its just the nature and characterises of a 4 cylinder engine so expecting the 200T and 300h with 4 cylinders to go about their business in a similar manner like the V6 250 is a recipe for disappointment, test drive any other 4 cylinders from Bmw, Mercedez, Audi and let us know if they are any better!

[Linas.P]

56 minutes ago, noby76 said:

i think trying to expect 6 cylinder characteristics from a 4 cylinder in terms of sound is asking a bit too much. any 4 cylinder car be it from Bmw, Mercedez, Audi or Lexus will never be as smooth/refined as a 3.2 V6 engine from Vauxhall or Ford. its just the nature and characterises of a 4 cylinder engine so expecting the 200T and 300h with 4 cylinders to go about their business in a similar manner like the V6 250 is a recipe for disappointment, test drive any other 4 cylinders from Bmw, Mercedez, Audi and let us know if they are any better!

So what we are discussing then? That is what I have said... both 200t and 300h are unsuitable engines (in my opinion) to RC or Lexus brand as a whole - not refined and disappointing. As well I have said that applies to all cars, bet that BMW, Audi.. MB or any other.. Infinity. Though I guess CT with 200t/300h would be quite good car.

The problem is that you don't read what I have said... or I guess I just write too much sometimes.

[dutchie01]

Some 10 years ago the Unique Selling Point of any Lexus was NVH - Noise Vibration Harshness - . The obsessive focus on NVH resulted in cars that had a unique driving experience. You could not hear the engine running at idle nor at cruising speeds. No rattles, No shakes, No creacks. Just total silence and refinement. The official line from Lexus management in those days was that there would never be a 4 cylinder unit in any Lexus as it would not comply with their NVH goals. I rest my case..

However since then the Co2 regulations came in force and any car manufacturer had to comply to a C02 goal calculated over the total productrange. The potential fines in case of not meeting these are just big, very big.

So, downsizing quickly became the norm. 8 cylinders became 6 pots grew into 4 and 4 cylinders went 3 or even 2 pots (fiat!). The real life fuel consumption did not always benefit ( a bmw 330 6 pot has almost identical thirst than a 320 4)  but it was all about meeting the Co2 lab tests and thus the C02 rules.

And here we are. Even Lexus had to change their philosophy and let the golden NVH rule go. They went the hybrid route connecting a 4 pot to electric motors and in doing so created a certain new USP.

But, it is just not thesame. My IS300H cannot hold a candle to my previous IS250 in regard to refinement and emotional aspects that cannot be measured like sound, smoothness or a feeling that a car can give you. I do think that for a petrolhead any 4 pot is worse than any 6 and any 6 is worse than any 8 etc etc.

Anyway, it is a trend that we cannot turn around unfortunately .    +++Full electric could be better than any 4 ?+++ 

 

 

 

 

 

  

 

 

 

   

[Linas.P]

Great observation.... I really like the way you put it "4 cylinders to meet lab tests". That is exactly my understanding - I do not believe Lexus is not capable of making v6 hybrid (actually quite evidently that is not the case - see excellent 450h set-up). The only reason for the going with L4 is that "in the lab" it can make unrealistically low CO2, but in real time conditions you just going to press accelerator harder every time and pollute just as much if not more. 

Again I believe that not everybody are "petrolheads" and maybe there are people who are fine with current set-up. What is beyond my is Lexus decision to starve the line-up by not offering say RC350 in UK, or even introducing something like RC450h. It is fact RC platform is direct fit for 450h set-up, so no engineering involved just simple decition to introduce or not to introduce such model.

I share feeling of lack of refinement every time I get to drive loaner IS300h or in this case RC300h.

[dutchie01]

The trick manufacturers use to guide a car through the current labtest with as little Co2 as possible;

Use a small 4 or 3 cylinder engine with a tiny displacement of say 1.2 liter. Then turbocharge it and take an intelligent automatic gearbox with 8 gears and an electronic unit connected to the carś ecu. A selector sport/comfort/eco is also needed. This does not create more power from the engine but in the case of Eco setting is programmed to shift up a gear before the turbo wakes up. So you have an underpowered engine without turbo that glides smoothly through the test using as little fuel as possible. Bingo!

Things quickly go wrong in the real world however. As we know from the old days a turbo can give a lot of horsepower but uses more fuel than a local whino downs bottles. And the only way to drive your car with the tiny engine is to floor the throttle and use the power created by the turbo.

It is my experience that a 3 liter six can have a lower consuption that an 1.8 four turbo. Also because the bigger engine is low stressed and in normal traffic uses maybe 40% of max power whilst the 1.8 is floored for most of the time just to keep up with traffic.

 

 

   

[dutchie01]

Linas, the only reason why the RC or IS350 is not available in the UK ( and Europe) will be purely economical.

It will be slow sellers and the return on investment will not be there i guess. Import from Japan?

 

 

 

[Linas.P]

Which in effect give the feeling we have discussed all along, low volume turbo engines feels trashy and under powered, because you have to constantly keep them at 100% stress to get any response back, whereas larger N/A engine feels smooth and powerful, just because 40% of power is enough to move our world fast enough without much hesitation.

The other "lab benefit" of turbo engine is that they are much more thermal efficient, due to turbo "capturing capturing energy which would have been otherwise wasted" - the problem is that is engine is under capacity and under powered to power 1700kg car the engine will be simply wasting much more energy. Technically it woudl still be more efficient, but in real life you will be pushing much harder and wasting fuel just to get to the same pace as you wilt larger NA engine.

I don't have issues with large turbo engines, where the turbo is simply there to add more power, but I am pretty much crossed with those tiny turbo engines, especially in "luxury" car package.

4 minutes ago, dutchie01 said:

Linas, the only reason why the RC or IS350 is not available in the UK ( and Europe) will be purely economical.

It will be slow sellers and the return on investment will not be there i guess. Import from Japan?

That.. and other reasons. I think my point is not to argue why they did it or trying to convince someone they would sell, but simply to state that Lexus line-up in UK is being starved and isn't comprehensive. Either you go all in with unpractical RC-F (still great car, but not for everyone as a daily) or you go to the other brand... or you get compromise of good looks and completely shoddy performance and refinement of RC200t/300h.

[Big Rat]

As I started this thread I hope you guys don't mind if I give it a quick bump, I see the conversation around the engine was quite lively, Ive nailed my colours to the mast in that I quite like it and so it seems do Lexus as it's going to be doing the Nurburgring 24hour, I'd quite like to see it my self but on my holidays, hey ho 🤔

https://lexusenthusiast.com/2017/05/17/lexus-rc-200t-to-race-at-24-hours-of-nurburgring/

Big Rat

[noby76]

I will say go for it Paul, one pulled up along side me at the traffic lights a few days ago and its a stunning looking car. 

[Big Rat]

6 hours ago, noby76 said:

I will say go for it Paul, one pulled up along side me at the traffic lights a few days ago and its a stunning looking car. 

@noby76 Yes John they are a good looking car, but if I went  to the Nurburgring instead of Barcelona for a week Mrs Rat would do unmentionable things to me with one of my nail guns😳

Now when her car comes up for change an RC 200T will fit the bill very nicely 👍

Big Rat

[noby76]

i think the 3.0T version would suit you.. RC is also a nice looker both cars are like no other Coupes on the road more aggressive and sporting looking than the German Coupes 

[Big Rat]

28 minutes ago, noby76 said:

i think the 3.0T version would suit you.. RC is also a nice looker both cars are like no other Coupes on the road more aggressive and sporting looking than the German Coupes 

@noby76 Right again John would suit me better I'd just have to try and get something a little more subdued  acceleration wise as Mrs Rat has an healthy disregard for speed limits over the years 🙄

They are a an exciting looking car in and out, personally I lean heavily towards a GSF next time but I could be coaxed into an RCF if the right one came along 😏

Big Rat

Edited May 19, 2017 by Big Rat