RX300 2004 Change From Air to Spring Suspension

[aderz]

Hello, I'm new to this forum but have been lurking for a while :)

I have the dreaded "OFF" light blinking at me on my 2004 RX300 so will be taking it to a local garage for the diagnostic code to see why (my scan tool doesn't find the suspension codes). Now as each part of the suspension seems to cost around one first born child and a kidney I was thinking of swapping the air suspension out for a normal strut and spring set up. Obviously I will only do this if the replacement parts needed for the fix are the struts as these seems to be the killers and they all look to be basically as bad as each other so even if I change the one that's leaking now there is nothing to say another won't fail next week.

So my question is this, to convert from air to spring suspension, is it just a case of swapping the struts themselves and the top mounts or is there more to it than that? I know I will have to pull the fuse on the air compressor to stop the warning light blinking at me but are the suspension turrets the same physical shape on air and spring cars or are they different?Looking at other posts on the subject people who have looked at this in the past have talked about changing to a coilover setup but I can't find any in the UK.

I was going to find a scrap yard that had a RX300 there and just take all the of the struts with springs attached as one unit, ive swapped out shocks before so it doesn't present a problem other than trying to undo 14 year old rusted on bolts in the rain......

Thanks in advance.

[SLACKBLADDER]

Hi I've got a similar problem with my 2003 sel.I got one strut that goes down over night so I'm wondering what my options are, 

[LukasG]

Hi. It might be cheaper to repair the problem...

car stay on normal position? Or rear higher then front?

any reaction when pressing suspension button?

did you check pump on short connection?

 

[aderz]

Agree that it may be cheaper to fix things, if its an electrical issue or an issue with the compressor then I'm good. If the issue is with one of the air struts then it could well be time for a change.

The car is level at present but is locked in the normal position. The compressor fires at start up then turns off and the flashing "OFF" starts so I think it is more a compressor or sensor issue but until I get the error codes I'm keeping my options open.

I've got a 100 mile journey on Monday to a very posh office to train an important customer and at present I'm turning up in my 1997 black and rust Bongo camper van..... I'll give it a wash and hide the kids scooters.

[Haylands]

Don't think i'd want second hand suspension from a breaker on my car, who knows what's happened to them....

The suspension ECU talks to all the others and if it's not working properly then you could get all sorts of errors, or none at all... You really need to find someone who's done it, but then you run into the problem that people don't like to admit that it was a bad choice and that they suffered from all manner of problems....

There is a new kit on eBay for £400 for all four corners.. maybe worth asking them if there are any problems...???

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Lexus-GS300-JZS160-Tein-Street-Basis-Z-Coilovers-Dampers-Suspension-98-05-/122300525903?hash=item1c79aded4f:g:9uwAAOSwiDFYP~7o

[SLACKBLADDER]

Brilliant suggestion unfortunately that's for the GS300 I've emailed them to see if the can replace the air on rx 300

[aderz]

Completely agree about using second hand suspension, but this way I can test fit the lot and get all the annoying bump stops and covers that you cant get anywhere else for a couple of hundred pounds. I can then swap the springs/shocks and top mounts at my leisure for KYB items which comes to £750 for all four corners. So I would spend around £950 in total getting all the suspension and then should be able to get around £400 or so for the old air shocks that are not leaking. This way the whole job has a net cost of around £550 for all four corners to convert it back to the standard Lexus springs and dampers setup with all new parts so no fears of it then riding like an old dog.

Weird thing is that the car is still rock solid level at the moment, have spent the morning bouncing up and down on the bumpers front and back, the engine has not been switched on since yesterday morning so no new air being sent to the struts. Looks more like an electrical fault or a ride height sensor. I am going to book into my local Toyota dealer tomorrow as there only down the road and see what there diagnostics can tell me and get an estimate on a fix. Would go to lexus but there a lot further and I don't fancy a trip through heavy Bristol traffic in a car that could collapse at any moment! Shame as the Bristol Lexus guys have always seemed to be good guys, when they changed my cam belt and ordered some new rear tyres as I wasn't happy with the age of them, instead of blindly changing them as per orders they called me to tell me not to worry they were fine and to save myself the money.

 

[GrahamG]

The ride height sensors are prone to water ingress. They can be removed, opened up, cleaned and tested with a multimeter.

There are posts on the process which applies to some Toyota models as well.

[GrahamG]

The only good thing about air struts and sensors is that if one fails you do not need to renew any others. Not for instance the one on the other end of the axle.

From my research on the USA forum these struts can fail at any time from 60,000 miles to, well never, so renewing just one and forgetting about the rest seems to make sense.

Also a second hand replacement can be worth while if it can be sourced at a reasonable cost. Swapping them over is very easy.

[Haylands]

3 hours ago, SLACKBLADDER said:

Brilliant suggestion unfortunately that's for the GS300 I've emailed them to see if the can replace the air on rx 300

Sorry, got GS and RX mixed up......

[aderz]

Agree about dirt in the ride height system, lets hope that a trip to Toyota will give me a clue. I did notice that the struts are caked in mud as the school run involves a tight back road where you have to get on the verge if you come across tractors, busses, Audi drivers and a Porsche Boxer driver who will drive down the middle of the road to avoid puddles....

[steve2006]

As the RX was produced with both types of suspension systems the parts are all available to convert to springs if needed.

If you do decide to change over I have the parts lists for all the required parts, as you mention top mounts etc will be required as these are integrated into the air setup, should you need a copy pm me your email and I will send over the exploded parts list.

[aderz]

Thanks steve2006 you are a true gent. Car still happily level so will clean up the ride height sensors and the pump and disconnect the ECU and see where it leads me. Then a trip to Toyota if that doesn't work for any error codes then depending on that will make a decision. Other than that the car is in great shape so I'm not giving up on her.

[SLACKBLADDER]

Peak autos Ltd on eBay  Haylands has the link replied to me they do a strut kit and the cost is £795 worth looking into 

[aderz]

Out of interest I called a Toyota main dealer and asked for a diagnostic and possible repair estimate. Refused point blank (even just for a diagnostic which I offered to pay for) as they don't have the correct diagnostic tool... Never heard such a stinky pile in my life. The minute I mentioned Lexus they just wanted me to hang up even when I explained the safety issue of driving a car another 10 miles to Lexus (rather than 1 to the Toyota dealer) with a big blinking light of death flashing on the dash. So am booked into Lexus in Bristol for next Tuesday who were obviously a lot more helpful.

Kind of rubbed a bit to be honest as I have had Toyotas before and used them so as a returning customer I thought that was a bit shoddy. Its not like I was bringing in a Honda or something.

[stringbender]

I've recently had exactly the same kind of treatment from Toyota Patchway and Toyota Brislington in Bristol. I thought that had all stopped years ago as it was a restraint of trade. Not so. Last time I spoke to Simon they'd never done a conversion from air to coil on an RX300. 

If any members have had a conversion it'd be nice to hear how they got on. Adrian, I hope Bristol can help solve your problem next week.

Alan

 

 

 

[aderz]

This was with Toyota Bath part of the Platinum group so maybe a local company policy within the group.

As far as it never being done, it is a drastic step (and a last resort). The car is completely level after a week of sitting so I don't think its the struts. The compressor goes on and off and it only flashes once the car moves. If you leave it for a couple of days it works again (until you move). Yesterday it was all working on the driveway and the suspension went from low all the way up to high and back to normal good as gold by using the control. Reversed it onto the road for a test drive and the it started flashing again and this morning is now flashing off all the time from start up. This suggests a wiring fault either with one of the units or the wiring between them, either way an error code will help a great deal.

Its only the SEL that has air ride so in theory it is possible, swapping parts around is easy. The problem that worries me is the actual hubs or body that the struts bolt to are different. At that point it either becomes a headache (if I have to change hubs) or a non starter if the top strut mounting point (on the chassis) is a different shape. If the chassis is a different shape and will not fit the spring shock then that's that, the only option then would be to weld new ones in and that becomes a huge task. Still that's step 4, I'm still at step 1 so there's hope yet :).

[aderz]

Ok been to see Lexus, Air compressor failure is the diagnosis costing £2500 for the new compressor.... that's a lot for a compressor. Still the system works until I start to move so I either have a bad connection somewhere around the compressor, maybe a leak from one of the lines out of the compressor or a weak compressor that can create just enough air pressure at a standstill but not enough on the move. The car drove completely level there and back (2 hour round trip) with the off light flashing so the struts are ok.

So looking on eBay a new compressor is £650 for a genuine Toyota part, will take a look around and see how much a Toyota main dealer will sell them for if I can't get the compressor working on the move by cleaning all the connections and checking everything is as it should be. I'm happy to throw some money at the car but I feel that £2500 for a simple air compressor + the labour charge is pushing the limit of taking the mickey. 

I also have a work mate in Texas and the Lexus parts there are a steal compared to the UK so may purchase through him to save the headache of trying to ship something from the USA.

Does anyone know if I should I replace the dryer as well as the compressor or is there no need?

[SLACKBLADDER]

Why not try a second hand compressor and dryer  cause you do get a short warranty from scrapyards it will be cheaper. And you could overhaul them before fitting 

[aderz]

I have now converted from air to springs, got my new MOT today. I went with all new suspension as the cheapest quote I got was £750 from a breakers for a second hand set or I could buy a brand new set in individual parts from around £1200 less the money back for selling the air shocks. It feels pretty similar maybe a bit more vibration over bumps but all I have really done is swap out the SEL struts for the SE ones.

It is all physically the same size so it all fits first time with no cutting just a straight swap and other than undoing 12 year old rusted on nuts was no bother just a pain in the back as it was all done at ground level so you can only really do one corner a day, its not that bad a job just a lot of time. You will need a good quality socket set and a good breaker bar. Also a wobble socket is handy as some of the nuts are slightly hidden by panels (front top mount bolts), maybe using a smaller socket set would get you round this. An impact gun speeds up getting nuts off and on but the initial loosening an final tightening must be done by hand so its of limited use. Make sure your jack and axle stands are all rated at over 2 tons.

Things I wish I had known before hand... Shocks/springs/front mounts/front bearing/bump stops and front rubber boot are all KYB. Rear KYB mount does not include a boot and the spring rests on the metal mount so buy the non KYB mounts that are an all in one mount/boot. Front spring cups are from Lexus only and you will also need a spacer between the rear shock mount and the nut that holds it all down (Lexus again or root around your junk nuts and bolt  box to find one that fits). My local motor factor could get most of the KYB stuff but the bump stops and rear mounts were off eBay. The bump stops and front boot kits were from a French/German company and took a couple of days to get here. The front springs are REALLY strong and I ended up using 4 spring compressors as my old pair was visibly bending and my bottle went so I bought another pair just to make sure, rear ones are fine and a lot softer.

Droplinks... oh dear god... They were working fine but the hole to fit the key to hold them whilst you unscrew the nut was rusted to mush and the threads had rusted off the bolt so after and hour of trying to get one off I broke out the redneck toolbox and just angle grinded them all off and spent £80 on all new ones.

I also found minor surface rust around the turret area front and back on the inside so whilst the shocks were off I re-painted these areas. 

Insurance has not been an issue and has cost me an extra £40 a year due to "suspension modifications".

Is it worth it? In my case maybe as the car is 12 years old and over 100k miles, all the air compressors on eBay were either pretty grubby or mad priced so my thought was to just get rid of the current and any future problems and change it all out. The body, engine and transmission are all in good working order so there is no reason  to get rid of the car I really like. Obviously if your car is still worth good money then just fix the air suspension but spending £2500 on a car worth around £3000 hardly seems worth it especially as I could then blow a shock in six months and get another £1000 bill. Its been a really interesting project and I'm happy with the results though obviously I understand this is not the solution for most people. Out of interest the one thing that made my choice for me was when I was in the Lexus showroom and noticed that a brand new RX400h has springs and dampers so it can't be that bad!

[Coxy]

9 minutes ago, aderz said:

I have now converted from air to springs, got my new MOT today. I went with all new suspension as the cheapest quote I got was £750 from a breakers for a second hand set or I could buy a brand new set in individual parts from around £1200 less the money back for selling the air shocks. It feels pretty similar maybe a bit more vibration over bumps but all I have really done is swap out the SEL struts for the SE ones.

It is all physically the same size so it all fits first time with no cutting just a straight swap and other than undoing 12 year old rusted on nuts was no bother just a pain in the back as it was all done at ground level so you can only really do one corner a day, its not that bad a job just a lot of time. You will need a good quality socket set and a good breaker bar. Also a wobble socket is handy as some of the nuts are slightly hidden by panels (front top mount bolts), maybe using a smaller socket set would get you round this. An impact gun speeds up getting nuts off and on but the initial loosening an final tightening must be done by hand so its of limited use. Make sure your Jack and axle stands are all rated at over 2 tons.

Things I wish I had known before hand... Shocks/springs/front mounts/front bearing/bump stops and front rubber boot are all KYB. Rear KYB mount does not include a boot and the spring rests on the metal mount so buy the non KYB mounts that are an all in one mount/boot. Front spring cups are from Lexus only and you will also need a spacer between the rear shock mount and the nut that holds it all down (Lexus again or root around your junk nuts and bolt  box to find one that fits). My local motor factor could get most of the KYB stuff but the bump stops and rear mounts were off Ebay. The bump stops and front boot kits were from a French/German company and took a couple of days to get here. The front springs are REALLY strong and I ended up using 4 spring compressors as my old pair was visibly bending and my bottle went so I bought another pair just to make sure, rear ones are fine and a lot softer.

Droplinks... oh dear god... They were working fine but the hole to fit the key to hold them whilst you unscrew the nut was rusted to mush and the threads had rusted off the bolt so after and hour of trying to get one off I broke out the redneck toolbox and just angle grinded them all off and spent £80 on all new ones.

I also found minor surface rust around the turret area front and back on the inside so whilst the shocks were off I re-painted these areas. 

Insurance has not been an issue and has cost me an extra £40 a year due to "suspension modifications".

Is it worth it? In my case maybe as the car is 12 years old and over 100k miles, all the air compressors on Ebay were either pretty grubby or mad priced so my thought was to just get rid of the current and any future problems and change it all out. The body, engine and transmission are all in good working order so there is no reason  to get rid of the car I really like. Obviously if your car is still worth good money then just fix the air suspension but spending £2500 on a car worth around £3000 hardly seems worth it especially as I could then blow a shock in six months and get another £1000 bill. Its been a really interesting project and I'm happy with the results though obviously I understand this is not the solution for most people. Out of interest the one thing that made my choice for me was when I was in the Lexus showroom and noticed that a brand new RX400h has springs and dampers so it can't be that bad!

Job well done mate, I believed it was possible and posted in a few other threads including SLACKBLADDERS with my thoughts on this so I'm pleased to have my initial research and thoughts confirmed on this being very possible and fairly straight forward. It's the way I'd go if I had an SEL, hell i'd prob even do it if they were fine just for peace of mind.

So all four corners for little more than the price of one new air shock from Lexus! Good result for you.

Where abouts in Somerset are you Aderz. I work near Taunton so imagine we're not far!

[aderz]

Lurking around Radstock. Exactly why I did it, job done for the life of the car. It would have been easier to buy 4 second hand struts and just renew springs and shocks but the price for 2nd hand gear was insane.

[SLACKBLADDER]

That made good reading so well done I think you've done more than you think you have helped us all by your actions so I say thanks   maybe a few pictures would help even more lol. So I'll buy the parts  and you come and fit them   hahaha  well done 

[aderz]

The biggest problem was the lack of information anywhere, I found one post in the US forums from a bloke who did it but the only advise he said was "it all fits no problems" and a lot of other people were saying that "in theory" it would work. If your in the USA then you can be a preassembled shock for around £200 so the lazy way would to just order 4 of them and be done with it (quality though is unknown). You also need to contend with different model versions as I think there was a change in parts from  2003 when the Mk2 came out and I don't know how compatible any of it is which is why I went for all new for my year which is also why I have not mentioned KYB part numbers in my post as what works for my car may be different for others.

The only headache I had was a knocking noise from the back which was due to the KYB rear suspension mounts having no rubber sleave only a ring of rubber for the spring to sit on it so allowing it to move sideways and hit the mount so I had to strip the back end down and fit new mounts. Then I still had a knocking noise and found out there should be a spacer between the mount and the bolt at the top of the shock that holds it all in place so I had to strip the lot down again and add the spacer. So I can now remove the shock, strip it down, rebuild it and refit the shock in 1 hour :).

And just when I thought I was out of the woods, when I took it for its first drive yesterday there was still a small knocking noise, trouble is I can't see anything wrong. Went to get the car MOT'd today and the tester advised me the front anti roll bar bushes were quite worn, didn't I notice a knocking noise??? Didn't know whether to punch or kiss him. 

[flumperboy]

I'm going to convert my rx300 from air to spring . Car is off road and going to be a summer project . Any requests for picture of progress and any tips . Should I leave all the pumps and compressors and sensors on the suspension or get it all off .?