New buyer: Lexus GS450h 3rd generation, pre-facelift vs post facelift

[HenryHippo]

3 hours ago, Z28DUNC said:

I did what you are planning to do, buying trade and taking out a warranty and Lexus service scheme. I've had to use the warranty as the aircon system stopped working and it took Lexus a full day of stripping it to find out it was down to corroded connections. This would have been a pretty penny if I had to pay for it. Whatever you do get the warranty. If I was buying again though I would buy directly from a Lexus dealership. Its so much less hassle as you'll get a years warranty anyway and the sort the car out properly before sale. Maybe something like this? http://usedcars.lexus.co.uk/used-GS/GS-450h/3.5/Stoke-on-Trent/1833775-606136054-1607044.aspx?srcmdc=se_na_re_

These costs are getting a little scary

If something breaks after my 2 year warranty period it sounds like it's going to be an expensive job to fix

£8.5k, a bit over my budget unfortunately but thanks

[Shahpor]

Well, I wouldn't own mine without a warranty since I cannot afford a surprise £1000+ bill.  But lets not forget that these are dealer prices that are being quoted, and as such it is the labour that is particularly expensive.  So, there is nothing stopping you from acquiring the parts from a dealer and get a local indy to fit it for you. 

You also need to consider that they are generally very reliable cars, so hopefully there won't be too much going wrong to worry about in the first place.

[HenryHippo]

Forgive the newbie question, but why does this car appear as "342 bhp" in a lot of adverts?

It's a 292bhp petrol engine, and the other 50 bhp is the Battery? From my brief test drive I think that the Battery is far more than 50 bhp.

[royoftherovers]

5 minutes ago, HenryHippo said:

Forgive the newbie question, but why does this car appear as "342 bhp" in a lot of adverts?

It's a 292bhp petrol engine, and the other 50 bhp is the battery? From my brief test drive I think that the battery is far more than 50 bhp.

292bhp Jamie plus 197bhp (275Nm of Torque from a standstill), from the Electric Motor,gives you a rarely experienced glide.

Regards

John

[HenryHippo]

21 minutes ago, royoftherovers said:

292bhp Jamie plus 197bhp (275Nm of Torque from a standstill), from the Electric Motor,gives you a rarely experienced glide.

Regards

John

Thanks John, seems you're the expert around here!

It's a shame they can't work together for nearly 500 bhp for a brief period

But why do some places (i.e. Parkers) list it as 342 bhp?

[royoftherovers]

2 minutes ago, HenryHippo said:

Thanks John, seems you're the expert around here!

It's a shame they can't work together for nearly 500 bhp for a brief period

But why do some places (i.e. Parkers) list it as 342 bhp?

Thanks Paul. I am NOT an expert...read ALL of this and be informed.

http://www.honestjohn.co.uk/carbycar/lexus/gs-2005/?section=history

Regards

John

[Shahpor]

That is a little strange.  Say the same thing on the brochure GS-450h-2010.pdf

Perhaps the electric motor doesn't generate full power with the petrol engine running.  It is only used to its full potential when running on electric only?

[OldTrout]

Jamie,

You are correct. 292 + 197 does not equal 342. Others will correct me if I am wrong but I think the implementation of the epicyclic gearbox means that at times you can have all 197 electric + some petrol (from standstill) or all 292 petrol + some electric (when you floor the pedal when already moving) but there is no situation where you can have 292 + 197.

See https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hybrid_Synergy_Drive

John

[Britprius]

The transmission in the Toyota/Lexus cars is a PSD (power split device). This is rather like a differential the engine drives the pinion gear. One output shaft drives the  prop shaft to rear axle this same shaft is also directly coupled to the electric traction motor/generator (MG2).  The other output shaft is coupled to the smaller motor/ generator (MG1). The major difference is that the output power of each shaft (for the Prius) is split 28% to MG1 and 72% to MG2. Other models vary this ratio, but not by much.         

If neither MG's are fed with current or have no electrical load the car is in neutral. Even if the engine is running there is no drive.

Supplying MG2 with electricity gives electric drive forwards.

Reversing the electrical supply to MG2 gives reverse drive.

In both cases the engine need not run as long as MG1 is free to rotate.

If the engine is running 72% of it's power drives the wheels and 28% drives MG1 as a generator the output of this can either charge the HV Battery or be fed to MG2 to help power the car. The engine can stop as long as MG1 is free to rotate.

Powering MG1 forces the engine to rotate (starter motor)

The HV Battery can also help drive the car when the engine is running for short periods, But the engine will only put 72% of it's power directly to the wheels.

In reverse if the engine is running it reduces the amount of power available to the rear wheels because the engine can only rotate in one direction "the wrong way". This is why reverse is invariably electric only unless the HV Battery is very low on charge. 

When braking MG2 acts as a generator to slow the car down, and charge the HV Battery.

The end result is that the engine can only put 72% of it's power to the wheels directly, but you can add the output power of the electric motor MG2 and the hv Battery to this.

John.

If you did not have a headache you have now

[Hangie]

8 hours ago, OldTrout said:

Jamie,

You are correct. 292 + 197 does not equal 342. Others will correct me if I am wrong but I think the implementation of the epicyclic gearbox means that at times you can have all 197 electric + some petrol (from standstill) or all 292 petrol + some electric (when you floor the pedal when already moving) but there is no situation where you can have 292 + 197.

See https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hybrid_Synergy_Drive

John

There is very simple explanation why 292 + 197 is 342 - lack of electric power :)

even if electric motor got capability to deliver 197 bhp it needs a certain amount of watts of electricity. Problem is batteries are able only deliver enough watts to produce 50 bhp and therefore on full petrol engine output + full batteries output we got 342.

now some of you will ask why to put so big electric motor if you can't power it up. I can see two reasons:

- it must be big enough to work in opposite direction and charge batteries during braking in efficient way.

- in many occasions it is better to run the petrol engine as a generator to create extra electricity to run electric motor. So we can have 100bhp engine for wheels + 192bhp engine as a generator + 197 electric motor bhp to wheels. And here is whole beauty of the hybrid system in gs - we can convert bhp from petrol engine to torque from electric motor. By that I mean if we use 10 bhp engine power for wheels we got x nm of torque but if we use 10bhp to create electricity we will have 7bhp of power but 2x nm of torque which equals to nice acceleration above 20mph when petrol engine can produce enough electricity for full electric motor potential.

 

 

[Britprius]

5 minutes ago, Hangie said:

There is very simple explanation why 292 + 197 is 342 - lack of electric power :)

even if electric motor got capability to deliver 197 bhp it needs a certain amount of watts of electricity. Problem is batteries are able only deliver enough watts to produce 50 bhp and therefore on full petrol engine output + full batteries output we got 342.

now some of you will ask why to put so big electric motor if you can't power it up. I can see two reasons:

- it must be big enough to work in opposite direction and charge batteries during braking in efficient way.

- in many occasions it is better to run petrol engine as an generator to create extra electricity to run electric motor. So we can have 100bhp engine for wheels + 192bhp engine as a generator + 197 electric motor bhp to wheels. And here is whole beauty of the hybrid system in gs - we can convert bhp from petrol engine to torque from electric motor. 

 

The batteries do not supply all the power for MG2. Under heavy engine loads MG1 adds it's output to the Battery output. 

John

[Hangie]

Yes that is what I was saying in my own words.in heavy load petrol engine is producing electricity through mg1 to help drive mg2 and produce more torque but less bhp. There must be a clever algorithm which decide about power flow as there is many different options. 

 

Point is mg1 is producing electricity by taking power from petrol engine so to have full 197 bhp from electric motor petrol engine needs to sacrifice even more - my guess 240 bhp area.

[HenryHippo]

Thanks for all the replies chaps. Certainly difficult to pin a number down on her bhp for pub bragging rights, but I suppose that's not the point of a Lexus, discretion is!

Found a couple of interesting prospects. Naturally looking under 10 years and under 140k.

This one is 2008 registered and last week passed its MOT with no advisories; sounds like the dealer 'pushed' it through after I checked the history

She's failed 3 MOTs in her life which rings a few alarm bells. (My 12 year old Honda has failed 1, and that was because of a headlight bulb)

2 fails were for tyre tread and another was for brake pads. A few advisories on both over the years too

There was also an 8 week period between one MOT expiring and the next test being taken

Looks like she hasn't been that well looked after. Would this put anyone else off?

[Shahpor]

Not necessarily.  Failures for tyres and brakes isn't an issue in itself.

It just depends on the condition of the rest of the car.  Does it have a full service history?

As for the gap between MOT's, it is possible that it was just overlooked since we don't get reminders for when MOT's are due, unlike road tax.

What spec is it?

[HenryHippo]

10 hours ago, Shahpor said:

Not necessarily.  Failures for tyres and brakes isn't an issue in itself.

It just depends on the condition of the rest of the car.  Does it have a full service history?

As for the gap between MOT's, it is possible that it was just overlooked since we don't get reminders for when MOT's are due, unlike road tax.

What spec is it?

Yes, full service history, but I'm assuming not a Lexus one as it would say if it did

It's the SE-L trim. Sunroof which is cool too :)

[HenryHippo]

Appointment booked for tomorrow (with a trader)

I understand that if there are any "significant defects" that turn up after a Lexus inspection then I am covered.

I imagine this is a somewhat subjective term, that means I still need to do my own checks on the car tomorrow.

In terms of checks:

 

• Tyre treads, are they all the same brand?
• Alloy condition
• Bodywork
• Electric windows, sunroof, rear blind, speakers, mirrors, central locking all work
• all 8 parking sensors
• electric seats (all adjustments), heating and cooling functions
• indicators, fog lights, head lights
• air conditioning/ heating
• wipers, washer fluid
• spare wheel and locking nuts

Whilst driving:

 

• reversing
• linear acceleration up to the legal limit
• braking
• electric handbrake
• range calculator

 

Have I missed anything, that I won't be able to get fixed as a "significant defect" after the sale?

 

 

[royoftherovers]

5 minutes ago, HenryHippo said:

Appointment booked for tomorrow (with a trader)

I understand that if there are any "significant defects" that turn up after a Lexus inspection then I am covered.

I imagine this is a somewhat subjective term, that means I still need to do my own checks on the car tomorrow.

In terms of checks:

 

• Tyre treads, are they all the same brand? Do not need to be same brands,but should have at least 3mms on each tyre.
• Alloy condition I doubt that you can callthese a significant defect,so ask for them to be refurbished prior to collection.
• Bodywork as Alloys above.
• Electric windows, sunroof, rear blind, speakers, mirrors, central locking all work and Radio/Cassette/Sat Nav.Check all glasswork for cracks any deformed vision
• all 8 parking sensors
• electric seats (all adjustments), heating and cooling functions and 12volt battery
• indicators, fog lights, head lights,condition of registration plates.
• air conditioning/ heating
• wipers, washer fluid.I doubt that these are significant,but ensure that car is fully serviced and service book stamped prior to collection
• spare wheel and locking nuts

Whilst driving:

 

• reversing
• linear acceleration up to the legal limit
• braking
• electric handbrake I doubt it will be electric
• range calculator 

 

Have I missed anything, that I won't be able to get fixed as a "significant defect" after the sale?

 

Regards

John

 

[Hangie]

As a general remark about pre/post facelift I'm very happy with post facefilt as I don't really like front of the pre model - a little bit too much 90s style :)

As a addition audio system is upgraded input wise- streaming audio from BT, DAB and USB (not sure if it was in pre model). Whole system looks also a bit more modern like power flow screen. Finally I like post face lift models in general as those got all early model problems solved - like faulty pump in gear box.

 

As for your list:

-there is no electric hand brake

- acceleration wont be linear in the 50-60mph area due to ratio shift in the gearbox. There will be very short (if it is longer than 1-2s be careful) loss of power.

- Check floor mats as new ones are £110 :)

- Some early models got some problems with VTC (change of ignition timing) so when you start it cold listen for rattling during the first 2 seconds

- If car is near to 100k miles check if cooling liquid was changed in both engine and inverter

- If it is near 60k or 120k check if new spark plugs are fitted (extra £200 for service to do it)

 

Beside that good luck and I can fully recommend GS as an previous owner of 2009 2.4L Honda Accord :)

 

 

[HenryHippo]

44 minutes ago, royoftherovers said:

 

Thanks John. Yes didn't mean electric handbrake, just meant it wasn't a conventional one

 

[HenryHippo]

39 minutes ago, Hangie said:

As a general remark about pre/post facelift I'm very happy with post facefilt as I don't really like front of the pre model - a little bit too much 90s style :)

As a addition audio system is upgraded input wise- streaming audio from BT, DAB and USB (not sure if it was in pre model). Whole system looks also a bit more modern like power flow screen. Finally I like post face lift models in general as those got all early model problems solved - like faulty pump in gear box.

 

As for your list:

-there is no electric hand brake

- acceleration wont be linear in the 50-60mph area due to ratio shift in the gearbox. There will be very short (if it is longer than 1-2s be careful) loss of power.

- Check floor mats as new ones are £110 :)

- Some early models got some problems with VTC (change of ignition timing) so when you start it cold listen for rattling during the first 2 seconds

- If car is near to 100k miles check if cooling liquid was changed in both engine and inverter

- If it is near 60k or 120k check if new spark plugs are fitted (extra £200 for service to do it)

 

Beside that good luck and I can fully recommend GS as an previous owner of 2009 2.4L Honda Accord :)

 

 

Wow expensive mats. It's facelift I'm seeing tomorrow

[Hangie]

45 minutes ago, HenryHippo said:

Wow expensive mats. It's facelift I'm seeing tomorrow

Yes I know I bought mine with driver ones missing so I was -£110 straight ahead. So just in case I got passengers and both rear as spares - maybe someone needs one ? :) 

[HenryHippo]

9 minutes ago, Hangie said:

Yes I know I bought mine with driver ones missing so I was -£110 straight ahead. So just in case I got passengers and both rear as spares - maybe someone needs one ? :) 

Would a Halfords set not suffice?

[Hangie]

It depends what are yours expectations. I like nice proper carpets in my car. They look proper are pleasant to put your foots down on. They also got proper mounting kit which holds them in place.

Same for you living room you can have something from Tesco or proper nice hand made carpet both with work. So if you would be happy with something from Halfords in your GS that fine with me. They probably wont fit so nicely will be worse quality and wont last for so long.

As for mats this is one of important point of my pre buy checks-up. Does the car have proper mats ? Proper tires etc ? If so there is good chance that owner was looking after the car and wasn't trying to save every single £££.

[HenryHippo]

37 minutes ago, Hangie said:

It depends what are yours expectations. I like nice proper carpets in my car. They look proper are pleasant to put your foots down on. They also got proper mounting kit which holds them in place.

Same for you living room you can have something from Tesco or proper nice hand made carpet both with work. So if you would be happy with something from Halfords in your GS that fine with me. They probably wont fit so nicely will be worse quality and wont last for so long.

As for mats this is one of important point of my pre buy checks-up. Does the car have proper mats ? Proper tires etc ? If so there is good chance that owner was looking after the car and wasn't trying to save every single £££.

I'm not fussy about car mats :)

Granted I haven't seen a £110 set

[Hangie]

2 minutes ago, HenryHippo said:

I'm not fussy about car mats :)

Granted I haven't seen a £110 set

Honda for newest Accord got similar mats for £70-£80 if I remember correctly. There are called premium carpets or something like that. Those in GS are bigger, got better fitting system, got nice special underside to prevent movement + bigger brand premium :) You can probably buy some decent generic ones for £50 area - but how often are you going to change them anyway

 

Just as curiosity I've just checked and mats for XF are £90 5 series £130 so Lexus price fits for nicely into segment prices.