Hybrid System Issue

[Mr Vlad]

I've just read this thread and am quite flummoxed that a Battery issue on a car just what 2 1/2 years old can cause that particular warning to come up.

My question is what kind of driving do you do Tim? Are your journeys short medium or long? Are your journeys mostly on A roads or stop start traffic?

I'e seen the Battery in the boot area and it looks a bit on the small size. But I can' see it damaging its self in such a short time though it could have come from a bad batch.

Has your car behaved since a new Battery was fitted?

[armartak]

Any updates in this regard? Did new Battery solve the issue? 

[reeac]

Had the same Battery problem myself a couple of months ago. Got a new Battery with 5 year guarantee FOC from Lexus. A problem with the hybrid system is that, unlike a conventional car, you get no early warning of a failing Battery from the sound of a "tired" starter motor. .....with the hybrid it's either go or no go.

[armartak]

thanks for the reply, I have the same issue. Just want to understand we are talking about 12v Battery right? changing that small Battery issue should be fixed...right? thanks

[200h]

the only possible warning you will have with a failing 12v Battery

is the central locking will operate slowly

[Herbie]

2 hours ago, 200h said:

the only possible warning you will have with a failing 12v battery

is the central locking will operate slowly

Not sure if you're joking with that comment or not but I've never witnessed central locking 'operating slowly'.

When the 12V Battery begins to fail it can throw up any amount of errors and the dash can light up like a Christmas tree.

[200h]

i've experienced central locking operating slowly on my last IS

when there wasnt enough power to operate all the car systems

on unlocking ,my comment is regarding warning signs

yes i agree with a flat Battery you can have illuminations like blackpool

with lights flickering on & off randomly and error messages being displayed.

[Stuart Aspey]

I am currently at Lexus Cardiff with what appears to be a similar problem to that which is being mentioned by some of you. They are initially thinking it could be the main Battery as it is still the original. 6 years at 88,000 miles in. I shall update with the results.

 

Kind Regards

 

Stuart Aspey

[Herbie]

13 minutes ago, Stuart Aspey said:

They are initially thinking it could be the main battery

I hope you mean the 12V Battery?

The 'main' Battery in a hybrid is the 288V traction Battery that is at the heart of the hybrid system and it would be very unusual for it to fail in such a short time.

[Stuart Aspey]

1 hour ago, Herbie said:

I hope you mean the 12V battery?

The 'main' battery in a hybrid is the 288V traction battery that is at the heart of the hybrid system and it would be very unusual for it to fail in such a short time.

My apologies. Yes, the Auxillary Battery. L28800-YZZQX. It's not the hybrid system Battery, but it's low voltage is cause the hybrid system warning message.

[Buliztik]

On 1/16/2017 at 1:29 PM, 200h said:

 after reading this post i had the same issue today ,i havent been out in my car since xmas and today when i pressed the start

button i had the the park message, the needles flicking and the dash lights flashing on and off this is due to my aux Battery going flat,

i bought the cheapest 12v car Battery i could this morning to power up the electronics and with this Battery connected i am charging the boot

battery off the car..

this is where i am grateful to forums like this where members share info

 

Which Battery did you get? I'm having a tough time finding a suitable replacement that doesn't cost hundreds of pounds.

[Steve44]

The 12v Battery in the boot is a compact gel Battery. £150 or so is typical.

[Buliztik]

Hi all, thought I'd follow up on this now, a 3 year-old original post with my own recent experiences with fitting a new Battery to replace my old, failing Panasonic S42B24L.

I already knew the Panasonic S42B24L was on it's last legs by doing multiple jump starts to it when the it's voltage dropped bellow 12 V. Due to the lockdown however I was driving less and less which finally killed it.

After years of research and stubbornness to source and fork out for the Yuasa I was finally seeing vendors that had reasonable Toyota branded OEM S42B24L 12 volt batteries. Yesterday I received and successfully fitted the Toyota S42B24L (Lexus part number: 2880-YZZQX) currently under £100 from Lexus Parts Direct. They are not a Lexus site but looks to be an authorized parts dealer and was very impressed by a sales exec who I was constantly emailing to check on all the details:

https://www.lexuspartsdirect.co.uk/parts/lexus-is/lexus-is-phase-iii-2013-present/lexus-is-3-engine-service-kits/lexus-is-phase-3-12v-starter-battery/

Size and fitting was exactly the same as the Panasonic. It's also a AGM Battery with the same vent holes. Ultimately it's a Toyota branded replacement of exactly the same Battery which seems to suggest Toyota were aware of an issue with the Panasonic so manufactured a Battery for Lexus service teams to install.

It was dead easy to install, like any modern car Battery just need to take off the clamps holding the Battery in, then negative and positive terminals then the the vent tube plug. The only few things that puzzled me were the vent's plug which just took some pulling out and reattaching the negative terminals clamp which were a bit tight so the Panasonic must have just been slightly smaller. Pictures showing both side by side for reference:

 

 

 

 

 

[Thackeray]

14 hours ago, Buliztik said:

Hi all, thought I'd follow up on this now, a 3 year-old original post with my own recent experiences with fitting a new battery to replace my old, failing Panasonic S42B24L.

Many thanks for posting this very useful information. I'd been looking at this Battery, too, (though mine may still last the summer) so it's really useful to hear of your experience.

In particular, it's useful to know that it's virtually the same size as the original Panasonic as this is one of the problems in identifying a replacement. In another thread, Britprius has given really useful details about how to replace the Battery with one designed for a mobility scooter which is cheaper and more powerful. But I'm put off by the possible need to adjust the frame it's mounted in. It's much easier if it's just the same size as the original.

I have a couple of questions. How does the vent hose connect - is it just a click connection? You mentioned a vent plug - was this something in the new Battery to protect it in transit and to throw away when you connect the vent pipe?

Some threads about Battery replacement have also mentioned a separate wire for the Battery temperature sensor; I think this may have been on older GS models. But I assume there must be a Battery temperature sensor somewhere. Some internet websites say that in general this is in the centre of the base underneath the Battery where the heat is greatest. Do you know if the IS300h has a sensor here or somewhere else? And do you have to do anything in particular about the sensor, assuming there is one?

On restarting the car, did you have any issues? The handbook says you may have to start in Accessories mode before you can get into the Ready state. And windows and radio stations may have to be reset.

And lastly, do you have any idea which is the main part number for the Battery. You mention 28800-YZZQX as well as S42B24L (I'm guessing this is a typo! both your batteries are labelled S46B24L). Are these two numbers both acceptable or do you know if one of them is the specific ID for the Battery needed?

Thanks again for all the details, in particular the pictures which help to make sense of what's involved. It's a long time since I got involved in changing batteries and on a hybrid high-voltage car I'm a little more cautious than I used to be on a pre-computer age non-electric car!

[Buliztik]

8 hours ago, Thackeray said:

Many thanks for posting this very useful information. I'd been looking at this battery, too, (though mine may still last the summer) so it's really useful to hear of your experience.

In particular, it's useful to know that it's virtually the same size as the original Panasonic as this is one of the problems in identifying a replacement. In another thread, Britprius has given really useful details about how to replace the battery with one designed for a mobility scooter which is cheaper and more powerful. But I'm put off by the possible need to adjust the frame it's mounted in. It's much easier if it's just the same size as the original.

I have a couple of questions. How does the vent hose connect - is it just a click connection? You mentioned a vent plug - was this something in the new battery to protect it in transit and to throw away when you connect the vent pipe?

Some threads about battery replacement have also mentioned a separate wire for the battery temperature sensor; I think this may have been on older GS models. But I assume there must be a battery temperature sensor somewhere. Some internet websites say that in general this is in the centre of the base underneath the battery where the heat is greatest. Do you know if the IS300h has a sensor here or somewhere else? And do you have to do anything in particular about the sensor, assuming there is one?

On restarting the car, did you have any issues? The handbook says you may have to start in Accessories mode before you can get into the Ready state. And windows and radio stations may have to be reset.

And lastly, do you have any idea which is the main part number for the battery. You mention 28800-YZZQX as well as S42B24L (I'm guessing this is a typo! both your batteries are labelled S46B24L). Are these two numbers both acceptable or do you know if one of them is the specific ID for the battery needed?

Thanks again for all the details, in particular the pictures which help to make sense of what's involved. It's a long time since I got involved in changing batteries and on a hybrid high-voltage car I'm a little more cautious than I used to be on a pre-computer age non-electric car!

Hi Thackeray, no problem at all, will try to answer all your questions. Off the bat, apologies, you're right, there was a typo. The Toyota Battery model number is S46B24L which is the same as the Panasonic and the Yuasa before it, so I suspect that Yuasa and Toyota purchased the patents for the Battery and hopefully improved on any known faults. I had seen the Britprius post a while back but sourcing a similar Battery was a bit troublesome and I too was worried about the fit.

The vent hose connects to the Battery via a fairly simple plug or nozzle. I've attached a pic of what it looked like, it didn't really click back in but the way the plug was ribbed (ooo err :) like other similar shaped plugs it seems to be forced in and creates a seal. The new Toyota S46B24L did not come with any of the vent tubing or plug which I suspected being labelled as OEM but hopefully the original tube is still intact and feeding from the Battery out to the rear bumper like mine was. When fitting the new Battery I would also give the original vent tube a blast with canned air or anything you have that might clear any debris out just in case. It was mentioned in one of my emails with the sale exec at Lexus Parts Direct that a fault with the vent tube could have caused the original issue with the Panasonic Battery but other users may need to confirm that could be the case.

I didn't see a temperature sensor or wire. My model is the 2015 IS 300H Luxury so they may not have a separate wire. I do wonder if the positive terminal's clamp from the car has a temperature gauge on it as it has bit of a circuitry attached to clamp itself (see the top left side of my first two pics of the Battery comparison). Not sure what that circuitry is for and from doing a Google I couldn't get much of a clearer idea.

Putting it all back together and restarting the car was simple as doing that. Nothing out of the ordinary, re-attaching the vent tube, both terminal clamps (positive, then negative of course) then the bracket holding the Battery in place. I had also seen that bit in the car manual about needing to be in Accessory Mode to have the car ready but from previous jump starts I knew the starting procedure was the normal foot on brake, make sure the shifter is in park and hit the Start button. On first start you get a message on the dash display saying the car is restarting, then you're right about windows and radio pre-sets will need to be set again. Other things like the SatNav preset destinations seemed to be retained possibly by the hybrid battery's juice. The Accessory mode however has come up on the odometer display a few times before during dodgy starts with the old Battery so it is interesting the manual mentions that.

Lexus Parts Direct have the part number as 28800-YZZQX but its labelled on the Battery as YZZQX. I think you'll be able to find it as just the Toyota S46B24L but the part number is there if you need it. I have seen it on sale on eBay listings and other sites such as:

https://www.allcarpartsfast.co.uk/lexus/lexus-28800yzzqx-battery/

I had contacted allcarpartsfast.co.uk last week too but the sales exec from Lexus Parts Direct got back to me first to tell me they had one in stock at the time (which I took) so there might be a backlog to order from there. If you are desperate though for one now a eBay vendor called e-hybrid did get back to me yesterday to say they have some now in stock however they are selling the Toyota S46B24L at £149.99.

No problem at all about the details! Sourcing a new Battery to replace the Panasonic took a long time for me and I know how stressful it can be when something like fitting a new car Battery should be simple. So many factors were involved with this to get the right one but I guess that's what you get from someone like me who hasn't had the experience before to then be stumped by something like a Japanese 12 volt Battery! I'm very happy to share 🙂

 

[matt8]

17 minutes ago, Buliztik said:

It was mentioned in one of my emails with the sale exec at Lexus Parts Direct that a fault with the vent tube could have caused the original issue with the Panasonic battery but other users may need to confirm that could be the case.

Thanks for the great insight.

What's the issue due to a blocked hose sorry?

[ColinBarber]

1 hour ago, Buliztik said:

I do wonder if the positive terminal's clamp from the car has a temperature gauge on it as it has bit of a circuitry attached to clamp itself (see the top left side of my first two pics of the battery comparison). Not sure what that circuitry is for and from doing a Google I couldn't get much of a clearer idea.

It's a fuse block. There are the two main 12v vehicle fuseable links (140 Amps and 60 Amps) plus the little orange 7.5 Amp fuse which is the supply for the DC to DC converter within the hybrid inverter.

There is no temperature sensor there, it is at the base of the Battery compartment. 

[Buliztik]

16 hours ago, matt8 said:

Thanks for the great insight.

What's the issue due to a blocked hose sorry?

No problem! I think the blocked hose was just a stab in the dark from a sales exec to the issue of the old battery when I was asking him about fitting the original hose into the new one. I never mentioned the exact issue, just that it needed replacing. Not sure if a blocked hose could damage a Battery so it would drop below 12 volts,  I just thought it was there as a safe way for the gases to escape.

[Buliztik]

16 hours ago, ColinBarber said:

It's a fuse block. There are the two main 12v vehicle fuseable links (140 Amps and 60 Amps) plus the little orange 7.5 Amp fuse which is the supply for the DC to DC converter within the hybrid inverter.

There is no temperature sensor there, it is at the base of the battery compartment. 

Thanks for this info, now I know! Cheers

[Thackeray]

2 hours ago, Buliztik said:

 Not sure if a blocked hose could damage a battery so it would drop below 12 volts,  I just thought it was there as a safe way for the gases to escape.

My guess would also be that the main reason for the vent is for safety, so that there isn't an accumulation of hydrogen which could catch fire or explode. But I've been puzzled to hear that the vent tube runs down to the bumper. (I haven't examined it myself). Hydrogen is lighter than air, so if the pipe is pointing downwards how does the hydrogen escape? Would it not just accumulate in the pipe as it can't rise any higher than the position of the vent? I hope there are some Battery experts who can come up with the answer.

The other question I had for Adam was what thoughts he had about the lower Ah rating - 45 Ah on the new Battery compared with 49 Ah on the old one. As long as there are no day to day operational problems with the new Battery, I suppose the only difference is that the 8% lower capacity will shorten by about 8% the length of time you can leave the car parked before the Battery goes flat. So if, for example, you could park for a month on the old Battery when it was in perfect condition, you could only park for around 27 days on the new one before it goes flat.

I don't suppose the lower capacity would affect the number of charging cycles it could achieve so it might remain usable for around the same number of years, other things being equal. But again I'd be interested to hear an expert opinion on this.

 

[ColinBarber]

Gas only escapes from the vent under pressure so the majority of the hydrogen would be force out of the tube. Any remaining probably isn't enough to be considered a problem and you need the tube to run down otherwise you will get an accumulation of water in the pipe which would block the gas from escaping.

The lower capacity means it will get to a critical discharge point faster which isn't ideal but with only 8% difference shouldn't really be noticeable in reality.

[Buliztik]

On 5/30/2020 at 3:08 PM, Thackeray said:

My guess would also be that the main reason for the vent is for safety, so that there isn't an accumulation of hydrogen which could catch fire or explode. But I've been puzzled to hear that the vent tube runs down to the bumper. (I haven't examined it myself). Hydrogen is lighter than air, so if the pipe is pointing downwards how does the hydrogen escape? Would it not just accumulate in the pipe as it can't rise any higher than the position of the vent? I hope there are some battery experts who can come up with the answer.

The other question I had for Adam was what thoughts he had about the lower Ah rating - 45 Ah on the new battery compared with 49 Ah on the old one. As long as there are no day to day operational problems with the new battery, I suppose the only difference is that the 8% lower capacity will shorten by about 8% the length of time you can leave the car parked before the battery goes flat. So if, for example, you could park for a month on the old battery when it was in perfect condition, you could only park for around 27 days on the new one before it goes flat.

I don't suppose the lower capacity would affect the number of charging cycles it could achieve so it might remain usable for around the same number of years, other things being equal. But again I'd be interested to hear an expert opinion on this.

 

Hi Thackeray, I did also wonder about the drop of 4 Ah from the Panasonic and was assured but some in the know that it shouldn't be that much of an issue. As yourself and ColinBarber have pointed out the drop over the lifetime of the Battery should be minimal, just need excuses to take it for a spin which shouldn't be too hard 🙂

[Thackeray]

On 5/30/2020 at 6:45 PM, ColinBarber said:

Gas only escapes from the vent under pressure so the majority of the hydrogen would be force out of the tube. Any remaining probably isn't enough to be considered a problem and you need the tube to run down otherwise you will get an accumulation of water in the pipe which would block the gas from escaping.

Many thanks for this explanation. That makes things clearer. I had assumed that the vent pipe was in continuous use but I now get the impression that it's mainly there for safety in extreme situations. I found the following quote from a Canadian university: "In VRLA (valve regulated lead acid) batteries (of which AGM is one type), any hydrogen and oxygen produced during charging does not escape but is converted back into water. Gas can only escape when internal pressure exceeds the rating of the pressure valve. Therefore, VRLA batteries are much less likely to release hydrogen than vented batteries. A vented Battery can give off sixty times more gas than a VRLA Battery in normal use." And later it says, "they release little or no gas until the Battery is recharged to approximately 80% of its capacity".

In fact, when I've been leaving the car in Ready state to keep the Battery topped up, I've noticed that the charging voltage is adjusted according to conditions. It starts charging at 13.9v, presumably until sensors have reported the outside and Battery temperatures. It then raises the voltage to 14.4v for a while. But if the outside temperature is above around 25C, it quickly reduces to 14.3v or 14.1v. This is presumably because, from what I've read, AGM batteries don't like too rapid a charge when outside temperatures are higher. And, of course, the rate of charge is reduced (as I think Britprius has mentioned elsewhere) when it reaches 80%.

So it's all very cleverly designed and seems to be specifically set up for an AGM Battery.

[Thackeray]

On 5/28/2020 at 8:09 PM, Buliztik said:

just need to take off the clamps holding the battery in, then negative and positive terminals

One last question. I notice in your picture that the terminal on the left, presumably the negative connector, has a big plus sign marked on it.

I think I've read elsewhere that this may be an anomaly and that the left terminal, despite the plus sign, is not the positive but is actually the negative. The positive is the one on the right with the fuses and the red cover - is that right? Does anyone have any ideas why the left one which I assume is the negative has this big plus sign marked on it?

[GS300h2014]

Thackeray, looking at the middle picture enlarged ... it seems to me that each Battery has the left terminal labelled as negative... so no conflict.