Lost the back end!

TimS320 · January 8, 2017

Was driving carefully in the rain yesterday through Manchester. Stopped at the traffic lights, to right filter in two lanes turning right. As I pulled out and turned right the back end broke away and spun violently thru 270 degrees. I managed to catch it and bring it back in. Luckily traffic in the other lane was light and managed to avoid us. Now I had the family in the car and the weather was dreadful so was being as careful as possible.

No idea why the back stepped out so hard and fast as I didn't see any trace of oil on the road. I'm always more careful as well in rearwheel drive cars. The traction control was beeping frantically but could do nothing. I have had the back twitch a couple of times over the past year, but usually when exiting a wet roundabout. However never at such a low speed.

I've currently got the tyres on about 38-40psi as I'm more motorway driving and it seems to sharpen the steering up a bit, but I'm wondering if it might be worth dropping the rears a couple of psi? I have the standard 225/45/17 on the front and 245/45/17 on the rear.

The only other thought is that I still have the tyres on that came on the car when I bought it. Evergreen EU72 tyres. I've just done 8k on them in the last 6 months and they were OK but I wouldn't say they inspire confidence. So I'm now looking at getting a new set of Avons all round.

Has anyone had anything similar happen and any thoughts on what might be the cause? Overinflation, rubbish tyres?

madasahatter · January 8, 2017

Think you have answered the question. Over inflation is not good, buy a good branded tyre the car deserves them. Rear wheel drive is different to front

wheel drive. I am on winter tyres at the moment, give lots of confidence at this time of year. Do not only work in snow, You have been lucky it was such

a slow speed. Try driving in snow mode when its wet, may help till you can replace your tyres.

TimS320 · January 8, 2017

Oddly, I have the wifes car on winter tyres (front wheel drive) as the go anywhere car if it snows up here. Just didnt have the budget to get them for the Lexus as well.

madasahatter · January 8, 2017

13 minutes ago, TimS320 said:

Oddly, I have the wifes car on winter tyres (front wheel drive) as the go anywhere car if it snows up here. Just didnt have the budget to get them for the Lexus as well.

Yes costs is another reason people do no run winter tyres as well as our climate. The last fortnight i have come home in minus degrees, and had no issues whatsoever.

I have used winter tyres for last 8 years or so. Mainly on front wheel drive cars, this is only my second rear drive car i have owned. I am going to up rate the

rear anti roll bar soon.

Shahpor · January 8, 2017

As Keith has said, you have pretty much pointed out the answer in your post.

According to the manual I have, the fronts should be 35psi and the rears 38psi for anything up to 100mph.

Also, different tyres make a huge difference. From what I have read, Evergreen's a good mid range tyre. People seem to rate these:

http://www.blackcircles.com/catalogue/goodyear/efficientgrip-performance/225/45/R17/W/91/f?returnurl=%2forder%2ftyres%3f&tyre=32155235

Not too expensive either. The Avon's are good as well.

johnatg · January 8, 2017

Largely rubbish tyres IMHO. Evergreen EU72 tyres get good reviews when new, but a lot of reviewers say that they last a long time (eg one reviewer claims 75K miles for a set). That points to hard rubber - and as I've said before, hard rubber tyres get to be lethal in the wet especially when they wear down to 3mm or so.

Avon ZV7 are an excellent choice - I have them all round. Doesn't stop the occasional kicking in of TC though when it's wet or icy. All the electronic gizmos in the world can't beat the laws of physics!

is200 Newbie · January 8, 2017

5 hours ago, TimS320 said:

Was driving carefully in the rain yesterday through Manchester. Stopped at the traffic lights, to right filter in two lanes turning right. As I pulled out and turned right the back end broke away and spun violently thru 270 degrees. I managed to catch it and bring it back in. Luckily traffic in the other lane was light and managed to avoid us. Now I had the family in the car and the weather was dreadful so was being as careful as possible.

No idea why the back stepped out so hard and fast as I didn't see any trace of oil on the road. I'm always more careful as well in rearwheel drive cars. The traction control was beeping frantically but could do nothing. I have had the back twitch a couple of times over the past year, but usually when exiting a wet roundabout. However never at such a low speed.

I've currently got the tyres on about 38-40psi as I'm more motorway driving and it seems to sharpen the steering up a bit, but I'm wondering if it might be worth dropping the rears a couple of psi? I have the standard 225/45/17 on the front and 245/45/17 on the rear.

The only other thought is that I still have the tyres on that came on the car when I bought it. Evergreen EU72 tyres. I've just done 8k on them in the last 6 months and they were OK but I wouldn't say they inspire confidence. So I'm now looking at getting a new set of Avons all round.

Has anyone had anything similar happen and any thoughts on what might be the cause? Overinflation, rubbish tyres?

Had exactly the same issue and with the same Evergreen tyres. These were on the car (rears only) when I bought it and to be honest I have had no reason to change them until recently when the car started to feel odd at the rear end, felt it had understeer on the back tyres. Tyres had plenty of tread left but I suspected they were not up to it anymore. Posted on the forum about the issue a few weeks back - Changed to Avons and the issue went away.

Like you it felt that the car was about to put the rear end out especially in the wet and at relatively low speeds. It wasn't my decision to put these tyres on but after this experience I wont touch them again. As John has stated above.. mine were 4 years old and I had done around 25k on them. Hard rubber and wet roads is not a good combination.

Pretty sure, as I did, changing your tyres will make all the difference.

Pressures for 17's are front = 35 / rear = 38

johnatg · January 8, 2017

35 minutes ago, is200 Newbie said:

felt it had understeer on the back tyres.

That's called oversteer!

Rebecca · January 8, 2017

I had the evergreens fitted on my previous is220d and to be honest they were dreadful in the wet. Even going slowly around roundabouts the car was twitchy and felt as though the back end would slide at any given time.

My current is250 has the standard dunlop sports all round and they are much much better in the wet and I feel a lot more confident driving in this vehicle.

is200 Newbie · January 8, 2017

2 hours ago, johnatg said:

That's called oversteer!

Never experienced under or oversteer in any car - I presumed it was understeer as that's what it felt like it was doing ... Just checked .... Google's a wonderful thing ... Oversteer it is

is200 Newbie · January 8, 2017

3 owners experiencing the same thing with the same make of tyre - should make a note to avoid this brand ...

peachy · January 8, 2017

I have uniroyal rainsport fitted on the rear. I can't recommend these tyres enough in the wet. They stick to the road like glue and not too expensive either. Only downside is their not the most long lasting of tyres.

true blue · January 9, 2017

Hi ,as john has posted ,mainly due to rubbish tyres ,I have been driving rear wheel drive cars for the last 17 years and in my experience you do not want cheap tyres in the winter ;I have bought a few MX5 ,s with Chinese tyres on and a light car like that will soon show you the error of your ways , So called summer tyres do not operate very well below 7 degrees so I would suggest a quality tyre .I have personally used Dunlop ;uniroyal rainsport ; vredestein and goodyear on lexus cars without problems in damp weather.If you are doing a lot of winter driving the new Michelin cross climate get very good reports ,and it saves having 2 sets of tyres .

Dave

johnatg · January 9, 2017

When the car changes direction by less than you expect from your steering input (front wheels lose grip) - that's understeer.

When the car changes direction by more than you expect (rear wheels lose grip) (see Tim's original post!) - that's oversteer.

Re these cheap(ish) tyres of far eastern origin (mostly Chinese, but also Korean, Japanese, Vietnamese etc) - I think that what happens is that the outer layers of the tyre - the first few mm of tread - are made of reasonably up-to-date tyre technology rubber etc, - so you think the tyres are quite good and a great bargain - but when this has worn away you reach a base layer of much harder basic (cheaper) rubber. Then you find they are rather less of a bargain!

Stick to well known brands - or at least tyres manufactured in western Europe (inc UK).

dutchie01 · January 9, 2017

Hi Tim,

This puzzles me. I drove an IS250 2008 model for 4 glorious years and have never ever been able to create oversteer, not even in the snow!

The traction control systems kick in immediately, The engine cuts off power to the rear wheels instantly to stop them spinning in combination with brake intervention of the required wheel/wheels. All this is instant and agressive, no playing around like for instance in a BMW that allows a certain angle of drift before the systems intervene.

Even while driving on snow i honestly could not create oversteer as big brother did not allow it.

So, that makes me wonder if your traction control is healthy and does function as it should. Maybe the buzzing sound is ok but does it actually intervene? Might be an idea to check this out..

i have never heard of Evergreen tyres but it sounds Chinese. In my opinion there is only 1 thing you can do with tyres manufactured in China. Dig a deep hole and throw them in.

I will always go for an A-class brand even if this is more expensive. Never ever play with your safety.

lex28 · January 10, 2017

I've had accelera tyres front and back for the past 4 years and never had rear end go out that dramatically in any weather condition.

Try a different brand of tyre and make sure the psi is lower than you already have.

Depending on your location, we don't really have a major bad winter in this country to warrant a tyre change every October!

Linas.P · January 10, 2017

On 1/8/2017 at 8:17 PM, Rebecca said:

I had the evergreens fitted on my previous is220d and to be honest they were dreadful in the wet. Even going slowly around roundabouts the car was twitchy and felt as though the back end would slide at any given time.

My current is250 has the standard dunlop sports all round and they are much much better in the wet and I feel a lot more confident driving in this vehicle.

Dunlops are upgrade.. Standards were mediocre Bridgestone Turanza's. Dunlops SportMaxx RT are great tires and I swear by them.

I have not tried evergreen personally, but I would never use budget tires of fairly powerful RWD.. I guess you have answered your own question..you had hard rubber budget tires, with rather high pressure combination of which left no traction (though I run same pressure on my tires, but they kind of like it... ).

Benji · January 11, 2017

I currently have four odd budget on my is250 (I bought the car with these fitted) As the temp outside has been dropping the behavior of my car has been becoming hilarious!

Looking at some reviews for bct s800 tires confirmed my suspicions.

Im getting four kumho's fitted on Saturday, I'll report back with what I think of them. On my old is200 I've previously had a full set of Avon zv5, fantastic tire in the wet. Two full sets of falkens ,not as good as the Avon in the wet but a better feel in the dry and lasted longer, still a very good tire even in the snow.

Benji · January 11, 2017

A quick screen shot for your amusement

true blue · January 12, 2017

Hi Ben ,I will be interested on your findings on the Kuhmo tyres on the Lexus .Are you fitting the Ecsta KU39 or the new PS91 ? I have fitted KU39 on MX5 cars over the last few years and found them to be excellent , I can't find much information on the new PS91 as it has only been available for a few months

Dave

JamieG4454 · January 12, 2017

I have ku39's on the rear of mine. They like to hold even if i push the car

Benji · January 12, 2017

I'm having the ku 39 tires.

peachy · January 12, 2017

I think a few people will be losing the rear end this weekend driving in this snow that's forcast. My cars staying in the garage.

madasahatter · January 12, 2017

29 minutes ago, peachy said:

I think a few people will be losing the rear end this weekend driving in this snow that's forcast. My cars staying in the garage.

Some of us are working Lol i am on winters and will see how i go. Had plenty of frosts already in york and finishing early hours certainly keeps you alert.

But had no issues yet. I just drive with snow mode on, less chance of accidents.