New IS220d owner seeking advise.

[acer54]

I have just bought my first Lexus - a 2007 IS220d 113,000 miles with full service history mostly by Lexus dealer.

I have noticed that with the engine running at normal temperature and in neutral that their is what can best described as a light rattling sound, once the clutch is depressed the sound stops. Is this the dreaded dual mass flywheel on it's way out or is it something else?

The other issues are what appears to be a flat spot between 1100 and 1500 rpm, I can feel the turbo kick in at about 1900 to 2000 rpm and then the car flies! Also if I use 6th gear at anything less than 80 mph or less than 2000rpm then the engine labours - is this normal?  

[royoftherovers]

Welcome Steve.

We can offer better advice if we know whether you bought the car from a Trader/Deaelr or from a private individual.

 

Regards

John

[acer54]

Car was bought from a private individual.

[Rebecca]

Yes all this sounds perfectly normal for the is220d along with the egr and dpf problems and the 5th injector and head gasket problems that will surely follow.

[royoftherovers]

39 minutes ago, acer54 said:

Car was bought from a private individual.

Then I am afraid that it is "Buyer Beware" Steve, unless you can show that the seller deliberately concealed defects from you.In which cae you can sue him for breach of contract.

Ask Rebecca to tell you her story !

 

Regards

John

[Shahpor]

1 hour ago, acer54 said:

I have just bought my first Lexus - a 2007 IS220d 113,000 miles with full service history mostly by Lexus dealer.

I have noticed that with the engine running at normal temperature and in neutral that their is what can best described as a light rattling sound, once the clutch is depressed the sound stops. Is this the dreaded dual mass flywheel on it's way out or is it something else?

The other issues are what appears to be a flat spot between 1100 and 1500 rpm, I can feel the turbo kick in at about 1900 to 2000 rpm and then the car flies! Also if I use 6th gear at anything less than 80 mph or less than 2000rpm then the engine labours - is this normal?  

Welcome Steve.

The rattle could very well be the flywheel, along with the clutch release bearing, or perhaps something else.  Although dual mass flywheels usually judder before they fail, so does it pull away smoothly from a standstill?

I am willing to bet that the performance issue is a dirty EGR valve.  It is not a difficult job to clean it, and if you are handy with the spanners than less than an hour to do it yourself.  This video is handy to show you how:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g18DS7tx9d8

Although you don't need to remove the Battery or the top pipe since removing one of the bolts from the head will allow the pipe to be swung out of the way.

Unfortunately, the gear ratios for 5th and 6th on this car are not the best.  It is not ideal to use 6th for anything less than 80mph, so I mostly use 5th, which at 70mph is about 2200rpm.  Not terrible, and it does have the added bonus of helping clean your DPF while on the motorway.

[Shahpor]

1 hour ago, Rebecca said:

Yes all this sounds perfectly normal for the is220d along with the egr and dpf problems and the 5th injector and head gasket problems that will surely follow.

What happened to not trying to scare new members away with all the unjustified doom and gloom?

[normski2]

21 minutes ago, Shahpor said:

Welcome Steve.

The rattle could very well be the flywheel, along with the clutch release bearing, or perhaps something else.  Although dual mass flywheels usually judder before they fail, so does it pull away smoothly from a standstill?

I am willing to bet that the performance issue is a dirty EGR valve.  It is not a difficult job to clean it, and if you are handy with the spanners than less than an hour to do it yourself.  This video is handy to show you how:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g18DS7tx9d8

Although you don't need to remove the battery or the top pipe since removing one of the bolts from the head will allow the pipe to be swung out of the way.

Unfortunately, the gear ratios for 5th and 6th on this car are not the best.  It is not ideal to use 6th for anything less than 80mph, so I mostly use 5th, which at 70mph is about 2200rpm.  Not terrible, and it does have the added bonus of helping clean your DPF while on the motorway.

+1 to all of that what Shahpor said 

I would add... those bolts on the back of the head are pretty tricky to get at without a good range of sockets and varying extenders as the Battery block kinda gets right in your way. If you go gently you can bend the top pipe up enough to clear the posts and get the EGR out. Clean it thoroughly and check that the piston operates and seats correctly. Once you've done it first time its peasy....and do it every 5-8000mls if I were you.

I know....i had a 220d in a previous life!

[Shahpor]

@normski2 you are right that the pipe can just be bent out of the way;  In fact, one of the technicians at a main dealer told me that's how they get the EGR valve off!

However, I never did like the idea of bending it, so I tried a different method.  If you have a semi decent socket set with a small ratchet and some extension bars, you can get to the rear most bolt on the head easily enough without removing the Battery.  The other bolt is more tricky because the bend in the pipe gets in the way of your fingers if you try and take it out, so I just loosen that one.  This allows the pipe to be swung upwards enough to be able to remove the EGR valve without a problem.  Very easy to do once you have tried it once, and much preferred in my case over the hassle removing the Battery entails.

Also a good excuse to buy some tools, which is always a good thing.

So the only real pain in the arse with the job is getting the valve pasts the insulation block!    

[Rebecca]

As far as the egr valve is concerned even when clean and running correctly you will experience very little power until at least 1600 rpm and between 1800-2000 rpm is when she takes off. Very uncharacteristic for a diesel engine as the majority produce power much lower down in the rev range.

Forget 6th gear in the uk unless you want a speeding ban as only useful at 90mph and above. 

[Shahpor]

Rebecca, I'm sorry, but some of what you say is nonsense.

Only useful over 90mph?  Really?  The 220d will happily move along in 6th at just under 80mph.

As for the other thing, apart from your previous Mercedes, have you had any other diesel cars?

How about a BMW E39 530d?  Peugeot 306 TDi?  Ford Mondeo TDCi? Alfa Giulietta Tdi?  The reason I brought up these examples is that I have had extended use of all of them at some time or another, and none of them were any better at producing power below 1600rpm that the 220d is.  In fact, the BMW had such horrendous turbo lag and poor gearing that you had to scrabble for the next gear every time it accelerated.

It is an inherent weakness of all turbo diesel cars (and turbo cars in general), that the turbo requires time to spool.  In fact, in the early days, cars like the BMW 2002 Turbo and Porsche 911 Turbo were considered very dangerous to drive fast since the lag was so pronounced that they would crash around bends.  Of course, back in those days, a turbo was used for pure power, with no consideration towards economy, so people actually wanted the kick in the back you got when it spooled up.

So, are there diesel cars with better power delivery than the Lexus?  Yes.  However, where in the rev range it produces it is not that uncommon.

[Rebecca]

Shahpor I found anything below 80mph in 6th gear would cause my is220d to shudder and vibrate and it actually felt it was going to stall. Only at 90mph ( not that I often drive at those speeds) did the car feel comfortable and usable in 6th.

As for diesels apart from my mercedes e220 I've owned a bmw 320d and a volkswagon golf tdi 150 and I found all these vehicles produced rather more power lower down in the revs than the lexus. It was quite dangerous joining traffic at roundabouts in 2nd gear as I'd floor the throttle and it would take an age to pick up. Never had that problem with any other diesel and certainly not with the 250.

[Shahpor]

Well, that might explain why you found the power delivery of the 220d so bad.   I can't really comment on the E220, but the 320d and the Golf are cars that I would consider on the better side when it comes to engine characteristics.

A friend of mine has a 118d (I have mentioned him before on here), and the power delivery of the BMW is far superior to the Lexus.  Although there is still a noticeable jump in performance after 1500rpm.  I too have had a few hairy moments at roundabouts if I try to use 2nd gear while the car is at very low revs.  Although this is not a problem unique to the Lexus, I have found that the best solution was in the Mondeo, namely an automatic gearbox.  Diesel cars, with their narrow power bands, are ideally suited to automatic gearboxes, so it still baffles me why Lexus didn't offer it.

And finally, apologies to Steve for stealing your thread.  It seems tricky to keep topics on track these days.

[Rebecca]

Apologies for going off thread a little Steve, I can't comment on your clutch issue but I really think your lack of low down power and gearbox query are just characteristic of the car. As mentioned cleaning the egr valve is always good. I got lexus to do mine for me along with some other work regarding the 5th injector thar was causing my car to smoke heavily. 

Anyway it's not all bad. I found the is220d had heaps of mid range power. So much so it actually pulled me back in my seat when the turbo kicked in. Something I don't get with my 250.

[acer54]

18 hours ago, Rebecca said:

Yes all this sounds perfectly normal for the is220d along with the egr and dpf problems and the 5th injector and head gasket problems that will surely follow.

Surely not every IS220d suffers with all these problems?

[acer54]

18 hours ago, royoftherovers said:

Then I am afraid that it is "Buyer Beware" Steve, unless you can show that the seller deliberately concealed defects from you.In which cae you can sue him for breach of contract.

Ask Rebecca to tell you her story !

 

Regards

John

I know the sale of goods act and I'm not inferring anything was hidden, I just want information as a new owner to help me move forward in the right direction!  

[acer54]

20 hours ago, Shahpor said:

Welcome Steve.

The rattle could very well be the flywheel, along with the clutch release bearing, or perhaps something else.  Although dual mass flywheels usually judder before they fail, so does it pull away smoothly from a standstill?

I am willing to bet that the performance issue is a dirty EGR valve.  It is not a difficult job to clean it, and if you are handy with the spanners than less than an hour to do it yourself.  This video is handy to show you how:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g18DS7tx9d8

Although you don't need to remove the battery or the top pipe since removing one of the bolts from the head will allow the pipe to be swung out of the way.

Unfortunately, the gear ratios for 5th and 6th on this car are not the best.  It is not ideal to use 6th for anything less than 80mph, so I mostly use 5th, which at 70mph is about 2200rpm.  Not terrible, and it does have the added bonus of helping clean your DPF while on the motorway.

It pulls away smoothly without any juddering from a standstill.

it's due a service so will have the egr valve cleaned - I plan on having it done annually whilst the car is in my ownership.

I agree regarding 6th gear and as you say using 5th more will help to clean the DPF.

Thanks for your useful input for a IS220d newbie!

 

[acer54]

19 hours ago, Rebecca said:

As far as the egr valve is concerned even when clean and running correctly you will experience very little power until at least 1600 rpm and between 1800-2000 rpm is when she takes off. Very uncharacteristic for a diesel engine as the majority produce power much lower down in the rev range.

Forget 6th gear in the uk unless you want a speeding ban as only useful at 90mph and above. 

I am interested in your story and would like to know more - I'm impressed with the IS220d but I know every car has it's short comings and I'm prepared to put up and work around them............

[acer54]

17 hours ago, Shahpor said:

Well, that might explain why you found the power delivery of the 220d so bad.   I can't really comment on the E220, but the 320d and the Golf are cars that I would consider on the better side when it comes to engine characteristics.

A friend of mine has a 118d (I have mentioned him before on here), and the power delivery of the BMW is far superior to the Lexus.  Although there is still a noticeable jump in performance after 1500rpm.  I too have had a few hairy moments at roundabouts if I try to use 2nd gear while the car is at very low revs.  Although this is not a problem unique to the Lexus, I have found that the best solution was in the Mondeo, namely an automatic gearbox.  Diesel cars, with their narrow power bands, are ideally suited to automatic gearboxes, so it still baffles me why Lexus didn't offer it.

And finally, apologies to Steve for stealing your thread.  It seems tricky to keep topics on track these days.

No problem regarding hijacking the thread - the more input the better!

[acer54]

New observation regarding rattling noise, when engine is cold no rattle can be heard no matter if clutch pedal is depressed or not - noise can only be heard when the engine has warmed up, ie clutch released and idling at traffic lights rattle can be heard, press the clutch pedal and rattle disappears. Clutch is working normally and gear changes are smooth.

Anybody got any additional thoughts regarding this? 

[normski2]

Sounds like the clutch release bearing to me.

[acer54]

16 minutes ago, normski2 said:

Sounds like the clutch release bearing to me.

How long can it be left like this?

I suppose once I decide to have it done then the clutch plates should be changed as well and hopefully the DMF is ok and does not need changing......... 

[Shahpor]

It's one of those things that might last years, or break tomorrow.  It depends on how much usage the car gets as well.

At 113,000 miles, the DMF will be fairly worn, so should probably be replaced at the same time.  Although it might still survive a while, as long as the bearings and springs aren't completely knackered.

Changing that would depend on how long you plan to keep the car I suppose.  Although considering how much they cost, I can appreciate you not wanting to change it.

It is a shame your car is too old for a Extended Warranty.  I had mine changed under the warranty, so it only cost me the price of a clutch for the dealer to do the work.  Although they still charged me £500 for a clutch kit!

[royoftherovers]

Shahpor, the car is less than 10 years old and has done less than 140,000 miles !      :):):)

jOHN

[acer54]

11 minutes ago, Shahpor said:

It's one of those things that might last years, or break tomorrow.  It depends on how much usage the car gets as well.

At 113,000 miles, the DMF will be fairly worn, so should probably be replaced at the same time.  Although it might still survive a while, as long as the bearings and springs aren't completely knackered.

Changing that would depend on how long you plan to keep the car I suppose.  Although considering how much they cost, I can appreciate you not wanting to change it.

It is a shame your car is too old for a Extended Warranty.  I had mine changed under the warranty, so it only cost me the price of a clutch for the dealer to do the work.  Although they still charged me £500 for a clutch kit!

Would my car qualify for extended warranty and if so how much would it cost?