IS250 head gasket

[Rebecca]

That's not good news as the main reason I traded in my is220d for the is250 was because of the problems with head gasket.

[RNUK]

Just spoken to Lexus and he said that there will definitely be a reason for it as he has never seen one just go on the 250. So hopefully that's of some comfort? 

[Shahpor]

Well, that sucks

Has the garage not investigated why it has failed?  If it was from coolant loss, then it should be obvious where it is going.

Also, John is right in that if the engine overheated, it is quite possible damage was done to more than just the gasket.  Warped heads are quite common, so perhaps consider your options before going ahead?

[johnatg]

In 'Car Mechanics' just received (I think January edition), the resident garage proprietor describes a 2003 Punto where the owner had watched the temp gauge go all the way up, then all the way down again before seeking help. Almost needless to say - the engine was toast and a replacement (second hand) was fitted. The cause was a small leak in a heater hose.

I'm afraid that modern aluminium engines rarely survive serious over heating.

Incidentally, appropro various other threads here but not this one - 'CM' are working on a project Prius at the moment (they buy cars at auction then work on them over a period of months). One of the topics covered is the de-seizing of rear brake slider pins - they look like a very similar design to Lexus brakes.

[RNUK]

 

6 minutes ago, Shahpor said:

Well, that sucks

Has the garage not investigated why it has failed?  If it was from coolant loss, then it should be obvious where it is going.

Also, John is right in that if the engine overheated, it is quite possible damage was done to more than just the gasket.  Warped heads are quite common, so perhaps consider your options before going ahead?

I have asked the garage why it has and she said it wasn't really possible to say... If the bill is not too distressing then I'll ask them to go over it thoroughly and ensure that there is no other issues that could have caused this. 

 

5 minutes ago, johnatg said:

In 'Car Mechanics' just received (I think January edition), the resident garage proprietor describes a 2003 Punto where the owner had watched the temp gauge go all the way up, then all the way down again before seeking help. Almost needless to say - the engine was toast and a replacement (second hand) was fitted. The cause was a small leak in a heater hose.

I'm afraid that modern aluminium engines rarely survive serious over heating.

Temp gauge didn't rise above the normal midpoint.

[johnatg]

I know you mentioned that before. It's very strange - you would not think that all 10 litres or so of coolant could disappear in a flash without leaving evidence. Or be lost through a cylinder/exhaust. You would also think that at least one red light would have appeared on the instrument display.

[Shahpor]

Hmm, that is strange.  If it was caused by an external leak, then it should be obvious.  It would require running the car to investigate, but doing that for short periods shouldn't cause any issues.

Like I said before, if the gauge didn't move, then it is likely it dumped its coolant quickly.

It is possible it leaked internally, but then huge clouds of smoke should have been coming out of the rear.  In the old days, aluminium corrosion on the head due to lack of anti freeze caused water channels into the head to crack/break, but that is rare nowadays and wouldn't happen if you used the pink coolant.

[RNUK]

Just spoken to garage. Looking at > 3k now and that without skimming etc. They are talking finding reconditioned engine and dropping that in. Anyone in the community that I can speak to about a recon'd engine or even that can do an engine swap for me?

I am not parting with this car unless I absolutely have to. 

[ahmedali44]

I'm really surprised head gasket gone on is250 never heard of as yet is220d had common issue 

Its lot to to fork out, would b cheaper hassle free get second hand engine. check eBay might get low miles ones. there is a breaker in Romford which is not far from you. 

Low mileage from 950-1500 on eBay. 

[johnatg]

I'd be surprised if you can find a recon IS250 engine. I think this is the first time, at least in the last 4 years or so, that we've had a report here of a likely toasted IS250 engine. So the reconners won't have much to work with, and if they have done almost anything at all to it it will cost a lot - eg we talked here not so long ago about hydraulic tappets costing £70 odd  each and there are 24 of them. Likewise I suspect the rest of the valve gear and general engine components.

I think you are more likely to find a damaged car at a yard or on eBay for much less than a recon engine would cost. An 8-10 year old car needs only light body damage to write it off.

[Shahpor]

Well, if the car overheated, then the head gasket itself wasn't to blame.  Can happen to any car.  You just have to be very unlucky to lose all your coolant so quickly that the temperature gauge doesn't show anything.

£3k, damn   At that price, and with the age and mileage of your car, it would probably be more cost effective to replace the car.  Of course, that doesn't take into account how attached you are to it, how long you have had it, known history, etc..

The problem with getting a second hand engine is that unless you are willing to take the risk, it is much more prudent to strip it down and inspect it before putting it into the car.  By the time you also include new gaskets, bolts, etc.. that could also turn out quite expensive.

[RNUK]

There are a few low mile engines on eBay but I am a bit wary of buying if i'm honest. 

 

[RNUK]

6 minutes ago, Shahpor said:

Well, if the car overheated, then the head gasket itself wasn't to blame.  Can happen to any car.  You just have to be very unlucky to lose all your coolant so quickly that the temperature gauge doesn't show anything.

£3k, damn   At that price, and with the age and mileage of your car, it would probably be more cost effective to replace the car.  Of course, that doesn't take into account how attached you are to it, how long you have had it, known history, etc..

The problem with getting a second hand engine is that unless you are willing to take the risk, it is much more prudent to strip it down and inspect it before putting it into the car.  By the time you also include new gaskets, bolts, etc.. that could also turn out quite expensive.

Not an option unfortunately. There is a large sentimental/emotional attachment to this car 

[Shahpor]

Perhaps, as John pointed out, you could find a whole car at a breakers that is damaged?  That way, you could hear the car running before buying, which hopefully would mean the engine is sound?

Ideally, you would buy the whole car and send it to your mechanics, so they can just swap engines from one to the other.

[Shahpor]

1 minute ago, RNUK said:

Not an option unfortunately. There is a large sentimental/emotional attachment to this car 

Well, that in itself is a good thing.  Perhaps it will make spending the money on it a little easier to swallow?

[johnatg]

I can understand that emotional attachment but you have to be realistic. You could probably buy a near-identical car for less than £5K or a newer one for maybe a bit more.

And once a car has let you down big time you never feel quite the same about it afterwards.

[Linas.P]

Yes I would double on saying that neither 1.5k, nor 3k are the reasonable options. As already mentioned if the head is gone, there are a lot of other stuff which can be affected and most reasonable would be to swap whole engine... I have seen bare engines (as you don't need any peripherals anyway) for as low as £450 and I wouldn't worry about mileage, I don't think reconditioned engine for IS250 "is a thing", so basically you just have engines from the breakers.

Now have you tried your punch line: "Guys... these engines are bullet proof and I must be the first person in UK to have one blown. As you have done last service on it and done much of cooling related work I really expect you to cover at least part of the costs"... at this rate I guess it would be reasonable to expect them to do engine swap for free and you just provide them with the engine. And I am very serious there is no other way IS250 has blown gasket but botched service 5k miles ago and I would be even considering going to court as a last resort... not like you can win it, but that is what garage wouldn't know and wouldn't want to try. Finally, if they have any brain they should understand that there must be their part in the fault.

[Vintagesixtysix]

RNUK...I've got nothing sensible to add ....but just to say I'm surprised at this issue and feeling for you....mines no prize winner but would hate for it to be snatched away from me like this.

Fingers crossed you can find an engine.... I have seen them when I've searched for the odd bits of trim & as insurance companies are only too willing to write stuff off nowadays due to air bag deployments etc.... you may get a good engine with reasonable mileage. How much hardball you want to play with the indie is your call..... I guess depends how well you know them..... but even independent strip down to assess will cost more ££££. Good luck.

Sent from my Iphone using Lexus OC

[RNUK]

Ok, so update. Got 3 donor engines lined up. 

Spoke to a local race company I know and they have advised that a donor engine is the way to go. So, 

1 with 42k, but it's on the shelf and can't be seen running. However they will fit and offer 3 month warranty 

1 with 70k on, but, full Lexus history (last serviced at 64k), however little red flags going up. The engine is out of the car and they "can't find" either the video of the engine running OR the service documentation... that's convenient!

1 that's just down the road with 69k on, currently in the car and can be seen running. The indi are happy to fit it and will offer 2 months.

[johnatg]

Toss up between the first and the last. One you can see (and hear!) running might be safest, but the first would probably be a good bet too.

IMHO

[ahmedali44]

No1 look better low miles

these ones I saw on eBay and last 1 as in car running worth  changing all mounts too 

Another option is finding a Co who can exchange engine for a recon one which has been done properly 

[Shahpor]

I agree with John, 1st or 3rd sound reasonable.

I assume there is not much cost difference either way?

And I don't mean to keep harping on about it, but before fitting the new engine, it is important to know why the old one failed.  For example, I would potentially factor in the cost of a set of replacement coolant hoses since they are going to be disconnected to swap the engines over.

[RNUK]

Yeah that's where I am. Forgot about the 2nd one as soon as I hung the phone up. Shame because on the face of it it was spot on.

There's about £500 between the two (option one being cheaper due to cheaper labour cost)

Waiting on the motorsport company to come back with a price and if they can do it. As I'd be a lot happier having someone that builds these things for a living doing it. I know I'll get a vehicle back that is as good as it can be. 

[Shahpor]

1 hour ago, Linas.P said:

 Now have you tried your punch line: "Guys... these engines are bullet proof and I must be the first person in UK to have one blown. As you have done last service on it and done much of cooling related work I really expect you to cover at least part of the costs"... at this rate I guess it would be reasonable to expect them to do engine swap for free and you just provide them with the engine. And I am very serious there is no other way IS250 has blown gasket but botched service 5k miles ago and I would be even considering going to court as a last resort... not like you can win it, but that is what garage wouldn't know and wouldn't want to try. Finally, if they have any brain they should understand that there must be their part in the fault.

I'm sorry Linas, but I don't agree with this at all.

There is nothing particularly special about the V6 fitted to the IS250, so if it is run without adequate cooling, it will fail just like any other engine.

Doing a service is no guarantee against component failure.  Lets says that a coolant hose suddenly fails 5k after a service.  Is that the fault of the garage?  No, it is probably down to the fact that the car is over 10 years old and has almost 110k miles on it.  No matter how well a car is engineered, age and usage will enviably increase the likelihood of parts breaking.

The only time you can reasonably expect a garage to be at fault is if a part they are suppose to inspect fails in such a way as to prove that it demonstrated signs of impending failure visibly at the time of the service. 

[Shahpor]

9 minutes ago, RNUK said:

Yeah that's where I am. Forgot about the 2nd one as soon as I hung the phone up. Shame because on the face of it it was spot on.

There's about £500 between the two (option one being cheaper due to cheaper labour cost)

Waiting on the motorsport company to come back with a price and if they can do it. As I'd be a lot happier having someone that builds these things for a living doing it. I know I'll get a vehicle back that is as good as it can be. 

I assume the first one with 42k miles on it is the motorsport company engine?  What company is it?

I suppose if you are planning to keep the car long term, then £500 is a small price to pay for peace of mind.  I think paying a little extra for a good job is worth it in most cases anyway.