Potential Owner - Any advice?

[deanflyer]

John,

77,000 miles.

[royoftherovers]

2 minutes ago, deanflyer said:

John,

77,000 miles.

Thanks Dean,

So, a failure at 10 years old and  77,000 miles is not considered to be "wear and tear" under the terms of the Lexus Warranty !

Let`s see how this information might be helpful to OLD TROUT ! 

 

Regards

John

[OldTrout]

Indeed!

According to the Lexus Claims Manager at The Warranty Group, a failure of one damper <100k miles is a manufacturing defect if the other three are OK. If the other three have also failed as in your case this perhaps suggests either a really bad batch of dampers with defects or maybe inadequately specced dampers in the first place?

The failure statistics would be very interesting.

Enjoy your Christmas Dean. All will soon be fixed with your car and you can enjoy it.

John

 

[GSLV6]

I had two damper failures on my 2006 GS300, one at 60K miles and the other at 70K miles.  In each case, I had to foot the (not inconsiderable) bill.  That was closely followed by the exhaust splitting at the Y-junction at 73K miles .  The latter I would suggest (and tried to argue) was a design fault as it is a point of high stress and had the exhaust been redesigned to lessen the stress at this point by strengthening the pipe here and better supporting it, it would not have failed.  Total bill for two dampers plus the exhaust was well in excess of £1000.

[Britprius]

It's about time Lexus stood up to the plate, and recalled GS450's, and fitted replacement shockabsorbers that are up to the job.

If this is not a safety concern I do not know what is.While customers continue to pay up for something that will likely have as short a life as the origional item someone is making a lot of money.

Having examined the shocks fitted there is no justification for the extortionate prices charged for them by Lexus. If they were half the price they are they would still not be reasonably priced. I know of no other so called pressigious car that has both front and rear consistant early failure of it's suspension.

John.

[NemesisUK]

11 minutes ago, Britprius said:

It's about time Lexus stood up to the plate, and recalled GS450's, and fitted replacement shockabsorbers that are up to the job.

If this is not a safety concern I do not know what is.While customers continue to pay up for something that will likely have as short a life as the origional item someone is making a lot of money.

Having examined the shocks fitted there is no justification for the extortionate prices charged for them by Lexus. If they were half the price they are they would still not be reasonably priced. I know of no other so called pressigious car that has both front and rear consistant early failure of it's suspension.

John.

How about Mercedes and it's ABC hydraulic suspension struts? Failure not uncommon at 50k miles and looking at £1k per corner minimum.

Lexus or any other marque don't have to justify their prices, you pay or walk. As they are still a profitable concern is guess most people pay. Many are returning customers 

[Britprius]

28 minutes ago, NemesisUK said:

How about Mercedes and it's ABC hydraulic suspension struts? Failure not uncommon at 50k miles and looking at £1k per corner minimum.

Lexus or any other marque don't have to justify their prices, you pay or walk. As they are still a profitable concern is guess most people pay. Many are returning customers 

 

28 minutes ago, NemesisUK said:

How about Mercedes and it's ABC hydraulic suspension struts? Failure not uncommon at 50k miles and looking at £1k per corner minimum.

Lexus or any other marque don't have to justify their prices, you pay or walk. As they are still a profitable concern is guess most people pay. Many are returning customers 

That still does not make it right. How about we get rid of all consumer rights, and make Toyota, and the dealers even more profitable.

I am not saying there should be no cut off point to any guarantee, but where a component is obviously not up to it's intended purpose it should not be the customer that pays. This particularly when parts that are failing in numbers, and are priced at a level of high profibility.

John

[KayCee]

well said john

[GSLV6]

I agree with John here.  Just because it's a free market and we're not forced to buy Lexus, the sad truth is that they deliberately have a stranglehold on the availability of aftermarket parts, including shocks, for many of their vehicles.  This means that effectively, you have no choice but to buy from them when something fails.  I am sick and tired being told by their sales team guys that they "never go wrong sir" when they most certainly do go wrong and more frequently than they'd like it known.

Whilst they are generally well designed and thought has been put into every area of construction, some parts slip through that clearly should have been redesigned or put right years ago. The sin here isn't that things go wrong, it's knowing that, Lexus fail to do anything about it.  It's enough to make me think twice about buying another one simply due to the premiums involved. For a premium brand to disregard such things is the sort of arrogance which will eventually result in falling sales as people won't come back.  Little things matter.

I put my foot down and refused to pay their frankly ridiculous price for fitting replacement tpms valves.  It wasn't the dealership's fault, it was Lexus Central.  How they can justify their rip-off pricing of close on £400 for 4 valves is beyond me.  The dealership kindly agreed to waiving the labour charge for fitting them as they also found it embarrassing but as a franchise, they're hands are tied when it comes to parts cost.  I also managed to get a decent rate on the shock absorbers when it was argued that a failure of this magnitude at this mileage wasn't wear and tear, it was down to poorly specified shock absorbers.  One I could understand.  3 out of 4 now replaced is not on, especially when there's no warranty replacement. I will be buying  a newer Lexus, as all marques have their issues (I had no end of them with Volvo who were even more of a rip off for parts than Lexus), but it may be my last one if there's any repeats of these things, or if they continue to be so greedy about parts costs.  We'll see.

[cruisermark]

I think the shock absorber issue is so well know that they should replace without quibble - I was thinking about trying the 450h but i have had an utterly reliable ls430 for the last 4 years so have decided to hold out for either a 460 or 600h - part of the reason was the common issues with the 450h such as shocks

[deanflyer]

Well my shocks are now all replaced. Handles much better now.

Having 4 new shocks and the Lexus extended warranty should go some way towards trouble free motoring :)

Still creaky dash though which is a bit annoying. Do you think they would look at this, or just put it down to wear and tear? 

[cruisermark]

Dean - it is a common problem - talk to them

Why not make a video and put it up for us to see - i'm a bit curious!

[Britprius]

As many here will know I came from a Prius to the Lexus "opposite ends of the hybrid chain". I was hoping that the Lexus would be as or more bullet proof than the Prius.

I initially bought a well looked after full service history GS450H on the theory it should be a reliable car to test the water before buying new. I must admit I like the car very much. I now have serious doubts about spending the amount of money on what will probably be my last car with the long standing problems the GS has that have not been resolved by Lexus.

I could probably buy a second hand low millage Tesla for less money, and spend much less in maintenance. Allowing for fuel costs the Tesla would win hands down even with possible Battery replacements.

If I spend the sort of money required for a new GS or other model Lexus I would need to know Lexus are going to stand behind there product without me buying my way into what seems to be a lottery of extended warranties, or replacing expensive parts that have short lives. 

The Prius had a 100,000 mile 8 year guarantee along with several other manufacturers. The only items replaced on the Prius under guarantee at 40,000 miles were the rear (KYB again) shocks "only one faulty, but both were replaced free of charge being told by the dealers they should always be replaced in pairs" Even going to the extent of showing this requirement in the repair manual. Then having no more problems when I sold the car at 128,000 miles. Lexus the so called premium brand of Toyota offer nothing like this length of guarantee.

So in my mind either they are after big profits at the expense of customers, or they realize there products are not reliable enough to be able to offer a longer guarantee.  

John.

[ISJason]

Hi, I can only speak for myself, but I've had no trouble so far with my RX 400 and it's almost 10 years old. I think the majority of Lexus owners have no problems with their cars. Just my personal experience and I hope it continues.

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[Britprius]

I do believe there are Lexus models that have not had problems, and this may or may not relate to the older models when Lexus was establishing it's self as a brand.

Unfortunately the GS450H does have problems with the shock absorbers at around £300 each for the parts only. This could be put down to the weight of the batteries but since the front and rear shocks suffer the same problems I doubt it.The new parts being no better than the old ones with Lexus quibbling about changing them under extended guarantee. Simply saying they are a ware, and tare item, and that description fits just about every part on any vehicle. This is rather like the old insurance get out of things going wrong is an act of God.

To fit a better seal system, or protect the old seal better may well overcome the problem, but no modification seems to be forthcoming. The same goes for brake calipers seizing on the slide pins with the standard procedure from Lexus of changing the calipers at £280 each. Now this affects many Lexus models, and as far as I am aware there has been no modification to the part or instructions to lubricate the pins at service intervals. Not what I expect from any manufacturer be it Fords or Lexus. 

I cannot justify to myself buying a new "expensive car" that the manufacturer will not stand by when things go wrong. Being in engineering all my life I do understand some things unforeseen can and do go wrong, but when this happens the only viable alternative is to put things right. Not to bury things in the sand and hope they will go away.

People have long memories, and it is very easy to loose them as customers. I for instance having had eight BMW's but will never buy another due to similar treatment by them. This was not the dealers fault they really did there best in the situation, but in the end they also lost out on sales of at a minimum of four new cars plus servicing of same. This over work costing £800.

John

[GSLV6]

It's not just the 450H though, and this is the point.  I know several people who have had or still have a Lexus. The ones that don't still own one will never go back to one because of the pricing of parts and unreliability of the models they've owned.

I don't believe many who run any car for high mileages and claim total trouble free motoring for over 10 or 15 years.  Things wear out or go wrong, that's life.   With Lexus though, they have a reputation to guard yet are in total denial about known issues, especially with the GS450H but also some of the older cars. Mine is a GS300 SE of 2007 vintage.  It has been the most expensive and most unreliable vehicle that I have ever owned, despite being relatively low mileage when bought.  It has cost me over half the initial purchase cost in bills on just 2 years of ownership for things that "never go wrong" from failing shock absorbers, to failing sensors, failing xenons, failing exhausts (£850), failing hydraulic tappets (£ that's £3200 for a top end rebuild sir), bubbling paint on the bonnet (£775 for a front end respray), flaking lacquer on the wheels (£340 for a refurb all round plus another £400 for tpms valves).  I questioned my sanity at even considering a newer RX but put my experiences with the GS to one side after doing research on ownership issues.  It seems to be a more reliable proposition....or is it?

We owned a C class diesel estate that went well round the clock, and then some, with the only real issue being failed crankshaft and camshaft sensors.  Other than that, it proved to be utterly bomb proof and better screwed together than our current GS.  The newer ones have not been as reliable otherwise we'd still have one.  We also had an old 850 T5 Volvo estate (1997 vintage) which also covered over 140K miles with almost zero problems other than a few shock absorbers and an exhaust (we'll allow it that!).  The newer ones (S60s...two of them) were far less reliable and far more costly to run so I'd never return to Volvo now.  See a trend here?  Lexus ought to be ashamed for some of the unresolved issues which still haunts some relatively newer models, because of the premium that they charge, the claims that they make and the lack of action to sort things out.  However, car manufacturer's aren't in the business of "being ashamed".  They're in the business of making profits and we have come to the conclusion that Lexus are all about huge profits on their current models, yet refuse to sort out issues which are well documented, at the expense of customers, plus STILL charge a premium for run of the mill quality parts.  Arrogance of the worst sort by a marque that seems untouchable when it comes to their warranties which are sold by sales people with PTFE shoulders.  Utterly disgraceful.

We are now seriously questioning whether we'll bother investing in a newer model after being a member of the owner's club for a very short while, as it seems that we are not alone on the issues faced, and especially in the responses from Lexus. I am looking at an E Class instead, even though we don't really wish to return to diesel.  I won't be keeping the GS, despite it now being well sorted.

Whilst this seems rather like a horror story, when reading feedback from other owner's forums, a similar story emerges for just about all marques of similar cost bar one or two.  Volvo, Landrover, BMW, Audi, Mercedes, Jaguar....they all have expensive issues and seem less well put together than Lexus.  Older Skodas are proving to be more reliable than Lexus though, and our experience with Skoda (2007 vRS Fabia) has been very positive indeed. Ours has been more reliable and cheaper to run than our Lexus, by a huge margin.  In fact, the cost of repairs for our Lexus could have bought us another low miles Skoda.  Toyota seem to fare better.  A friend is on his second Avensis with the first covering 12 years of motoring with next to zero issues.  How can Toyota from the same stable have less issues seemingly than their more prestigious stable mates?  They do seem to be the more reliable and far less costly proposition.  You pay a price for the premium brand, yet don't expect any greater reliability but do expect higher running costs.  It's the price of ownership.

One good marker is to look around at the mileages of used vehicles for sale.  Mid to late Naughties model C Class Mercs are knocking around with huge mileages on them.  Not so many lexus models though...The facts speak for themselves, no arguments needed. Look further up the Merc range....reliability lessens with cost and complexity.

Lexus after all tend to be very complex and very costly vehicles across much of the range.  Now viewed in this light and things do start to look more positive.  No other  marque of similar complexity and cost seem to enjoy the same reliability until you hit some fairly prestigious cars. They still better anything from Germany, owner satisfaction remains high, dealership satisfaction remains high and on the whole, many newer models seem to be well sorted. The GS though is still the fly in the ointment which is why we'll never own another one.  Once bitten...We'd have to be stupid to buy another after the issues that we've faced.  We are still considering the RX, but with more homework needed, won't commit over a newish Merc E Class until we've done a little more homework. Certainly, there are a fair few 100K plus mileage RXs knocking about which seem to have suffered far fewer reliability issues, even in hybrid format, than our current GS or the equivalent GS450H.  However, we could buy an E class estate with under 10K miles in a high trim option and enjoy more cabin space, more load space, cheaper running costs, better handling, better kit levels as standard, better performance, better interiors and (if owner's forums are anything to go by) better reliability all for less money.  It is a testament to the honesty and feedback of you guys on this forum and similar ones which make membership so valuable as this forum is the best, or the worst advert for buying Lexus, depending on the model chosen. GS?  Forget it. RX?  perhaps.   More homework needed!

 

[talaipwros]

Had a GS250 from new for 3 years and 35k miles.

Absolutely amazing quality, never even heard a rattle, ever. Think about this model as well before deciding your next Lexus 

[ISJason]

I've had Lexus for over 10 years now and I would never go to any other marque. My experience with Mercedes is that the build quality is highly suspect. My uncle had two and has been crippled by major electronic problems on both cars. And when I had a test drive in a couple Mercedes, I was dismayed at the quality , as the doorhandles almost came off in my hand and it was from showroom models.

As far as BMW is concerned I think the ride is atrocious, very hard, and every piece of equipment is a cost option. I love the Lexus because it is total luxury and quality and it's got all the toys I Ever need. I would never have anything else now.

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[Boddney]

^^^^^^^^ what he said, seconded.

[GSLV6]

On 29/12/2016 at 6:13 PM, ISJason said:

 

I've had Lexus for over 10 years now and I would never go to any other marque. My experience with Mercedes is that the build quality is highly suspect. My uncle had two and has been crippled by major electronic problems on both cars. And when I had a test drive in a couple Mercedes, I was dismayed at the quality , as the doorhandles almost came off in my hand and it was from showroom models.

 

As far as BMW is concerned I think the ride is atrocious, very hard, and every piece of equipment is a cost option. I love the Lexus because it is total luxury and quality and it's got all the toys I Ever need. I would never have anything else now.

 

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I have to agree with you after owning all three marques.  My Beemer wasn't a harsh ride though, it was very compliant. I did have the softer sprung E46 325 SE though and not one of the bone shakers with stiffened suspension.  Our Merc was, and remains still, the most reliable vehicle we've ever owned but newer ones seem to be plagued by electronic issues, and glowplug failures etc.  They're not a cheap car to run.

Bizarrely, if one looks at justification rather than any other criteria, for a family sized reliable load lugger, on VFM and price alone, the most reliable, cheapest to run vehicle, possibly on the planet, remains as the early Naughties Ford Mondeo Estate with the Duratec petrol engine, a joint Ford/Mazda development.  I know several people who've owned or still drive one of those in 2 litre trim.  The 2.5 litre V6 was also a gem.  The parts are ridiculously cheap and hardly anything ever goes wrong with them.  Many are on the roads with well over 200K miles and still going strong.  My brother owns a Mazda with the same engine, and that has covered over 200K almost trouble free miles.  You can pick up good examples for a few grand at say 2002 to 2005 vintage.  If I was measuring purchase by justifying cost/benefit to reliability and running costs only, i'd not hesitate and buy a Mondeo estate, sod the brand snobbery, it's a great motorcar that you can rely on, ditto the Mazda 6 of the same vintage.

That all said, like many on here I suspect, I'm at a stage in my life where I see friends and relatives starting to drop with illnesses, have my own issues and have a young family, so a little bit more luxury, and a more practical oriented vehicle which is more a nice to have than a need is all the justification needed.  If you like something and can afford it, life is too short to worry that you could save yourself £20K and buy a really good Mondeo estate that would do the job in hand just as well. Part of  me can't get over the selfish aspect of that sentiment though, possibly as I've never spent more than £10K on any car in the past, usually a lot less.