GS300 to RX450H or GS450H???

[royoftherovers]

2 hours ago, GSLV6 said:

Thank you for the welcome John.

I'll be 50 next month, so guess that just qualifies me as old enough not to be in the Audi/BMW camp any longer  (I've never found the urge to own an Audi). I'm not a car snob though and have never owned anything newer than 5 years old.   The GS has been a real eye opener to Lexus cars for us.  I almost went for a V70 instead but had so many issues with previous Volvos, gave it a miss when I saw how well finished and refined the GS was in comparison.  I traded in our 9 year old C220 estate (great car but just started giving trouble at 120K miles such as PDF and EGR issues plus water leaking into rear storage wells where immobiliser circuitry lives!) for the GS.  Whilst it has not been overly reliable, with annoying but expensive issues needing to be sorted (I wont gloss over them for Lexus), I do recognise that it is generally well screwed together and a great engine and transmission.  I only wish that the RX shared the same gear train as, honestly, I do not like CVT gearboxes but they seem to be here to stay with Lexus.

The RX certainly makes a lot of sense to us.  We're just a little concerned at having to invest so much into a car, as being self employed and not on a particularly high wage, it's cash which has to come from savings.  It's a gamble.  If the car lasts 10 years and is trouble free in that time plus holds reasonable residual value, then the gamble will be worth it.  It would make more sense for us to run the GS for another 5 years but we will need something like an estate we can put bikes into the back of, carry stuff for my work etc) and that's not possible with the GS which limits us a bit.  I'd rather have an SUV than an estate so the ride comfort, height, visibility etc.  I have a badly injured back too (mountain biking took its toll!) so really firm rides are out.  The RX just ticks a lot of boxes at the minute.  Rather than buy a high miles example and have the hassles we've had with other high miles cars, we've decided to go with a one or two year old car this time round, so fingers crossed we're doing the right thing!

 

Ah, the magical 50........I`d like to say that I remember it well Paul, but it was 20 years ago!

Yes, you are old enough (in my book at least ) to have lost that Boy Racer image (if indeed you ever had it) and have the experience and wisdom that attracts one to Lexus.

I do not consider the F Sport models to be anything other than marketing ploys to attract the drivers of modern Audi`s Bmw`s and Merc`s and thereby increase sales.

The LS and GS models prior to the introduction of that silly spindle grill are what I refer to as Lexus vehicles. They had presence and quality specifications as standard which I do not see reflected in the latest thinking.

I still have my 215,000 miles E Class Diesel Auto Estate which I could not part with as it is a member of the family. It has looked after us and it is my responsibility to look after it. It doesn`t cost much to run,insure and tax, so I will keep it for as long as I can.

 

I think that you are right to keep your GS until such times (if any) as you feel that it should go. Should you buy an RX, then Rayann on this Forum will I am sure have some good sound advice for you.

I would just like to offer the following;

1. Try to buy from a Lexus Dealer and receive a decent 12 month warranty

2. If at the end of that warranty the car is less than 10 years old and has covered less than 140,000 miles, then take out a Lexus extended warranty so as to provide peace of mind.

3. Take out a service agreement with the Lexus Dealer.

4. Maintain an excellent relationship with your Lexus Dealer as he will be your first port of call if you need to claim on the extended warrantyand if he`s good ,he will have some clout on your behalf,

5. Try to move away in your mind from the concept of a gearbox. Lexus has CVT transmission and it does not contain gears.What it provides is a seamless and linear surge of silent power. (Remember the Bumping cars a the fareground?  )It is not intended to be floored, so accelerate gradually by anticipating your (and others) every move on the road. This will minimise the need for constant acceleration and braking and should therefore provide you with the experience of being in a cacoon!.

Good luck and do keep us all informed.

 

Regards

John

[GSLV6]

Thanks John. I do like our GS and I do agree with you that the new Spindle-grilled GS/LS I don't regard as "proper" Lexus cars. The styling's gone from elegant to aggressive, to tempt the younger execs out of their Audis and beemers.  New ones are sold with the promise of being better.  I'm not so sure.  It depends on your definition of better I suppose.  Having driven both, I'm pretty convinced that the Mk3 Lexus GS cars were amongst the most elegant Lexus vehicles ever produced and probably the best specified as standard at the price, ditto MK2 & 3 LS cars  Certainly, the newer ones don't make you feel quite so special when you first encounter them.  I was left pretty un-moved by my experiences with the one we drove.  The MK3 RX is ok but I won't be buying it for its looks!

[ISJason]

I feel lucky and privileged when I drive or sit in my Lexus. Most people will never own one so I feel happy as Larry.. as for the shape, I think it's a case of Lexus having to move forward and stand out from the crowd to keep selling cars. They are already known as superb luxury cars with superb reliability.. so where from a corporate and commercial perspective can you go from there? Hence the radical looks.

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[GSLV6]

It is marketing Jason, as you say but with their reputation, one thing admired about Lexus is that they never had to bow to the alter of ultra modernity or fashion to sell vehicles.  Most Lexus buyers valued them as much for their under-stated elegance as their reliability and engineering, so the modern aggressive spindle design one can argue is out of keeping with that image but is a mark of corporatism trying to sell more cars.  I don't see them as different.  Jag have their wide-jawed new look, Ford have stolen the Aston front end, Volvo have got sharper but remain understated, Beemers likewise, and Merc continually facelift their models and now are shaping up a similar corporate look, as with the others.  

Some see it as progress, but it's not.  It's fashion, designed to attract a wider demographic, which is entirely different to progress.  Unfortunately, they have managed to be striking but have almost entirely lost their elegance in the process.  Look at the lines of the lovely LS460/600 and the Mk3 GS300/430/450H.  The latter especially with its fast-back styling and unique front end to me is a triumph of understated elegance and a lovely side and rear profile of the car. It draws attention without even trying, it doesn't have to shout "look at all my aggressive lines and deep angular grille!".  One man's meat and all that...

What has in fact happened is that they've progressed their range to include a starter range, a family sized saloon, a school run mini SUV, an exec market saloon, a luxury limo and of course the jack of all RX crossover/SUT. They are trying to capture more of the market, hence need to steal a march on areas which frankly mattered less to them in the past given the relatively wealthy post '40 something demographic of 10 years and more ago.  I guess to do this, the appeal must also stretch to those appreciating the more aggressive styling, but to me, it has cheapened the looks of the cars without adding anything.  It simply becomes another mould which needs to evolve to stay fresh rather than a timeless classic as the older ones could be viewed.  They now dont look any more exclusive to me than  any other mainstream car. Shame really.  It's all subjective though and just my own personal opinion. 

[Funkyboy]

2 hours ago, GSLV6 said:

It is marketing Jason, as you say but with their reputation, one thing admired about Lexus is that they never had to bow to the alter of ultra modernity or fashion to sell vehicles.  Most Lexus buyers valued them as much for their under-stated elegance as their reliability and engineering, so the modern aggressive spindle design one can argue is out of keeping with that image but is a mark of corporatism trying to sell more cars.  I don't see them as different.  Jag have their wide-jawed new look, Ford have stolen the Aston front end, Volvo have got sharper but remain understated, Beemers likewise, and Merc continually facelift their models and now are shaping up a similar corporate look, as with the others.  

Some see it as progress, but it's not.  It's fashion, designed to attract a wider demographic, which is entirely different to progress.  Unfortunately, they have managed to be striking but have almost entirely lost their elegance in the process.  Look at the lines of the lovely LS460/600 and the Mk3 GS300/430/450H.  The latter especially with its fast-back styling and unique front end to me is a triumph of understated elegance and a lovely side and rear profile of the car. It draws attention without even trying, it doesn't have to shout "look at all my aggressive lines and deep angular grille!".  One man's meat and all that...

What has in fact happened is that they've progressed their range to include a starter range, a family sized saloon, a school run mini SUV, an exec market saloon, a luxury limo and of course the jack of all RX crossover/SUT. They are trying to capture more of the market, hence need to steal a march on areas which frankly mattered less to them in the past given the relatively wealthy post '40 something demographic of 10 years and more ago.  I guess to do this, the appeal must also stretch to those appreciating the more aggressive styling, but to me, it has cheapened the looks of the cars without adding anything.  It simply becomes another mould which needs to evolve to stay fresh rather than a timeless classic as the older ones could be viewed.  They now dont look any more exclusive to me than  any other mainstream car. Shame really.  It's all subjective though and just my own personal opinion. 

Totally agree. Think they need to work now on the hybrid system it's not really changed much for over 10 years. Infact as stated on here MPG wise 3ltr petrol engines can match it now on the NX/RX range.

Dont think Lexus thinks it can attract more users based on car being hybrid so is now going down attracting customers by the styling.

[GSLV6]

I think we'll see a new hybrid coming within the next three to five years.  They can't continue to push the damned lie about their 450's being good for an average of 45mpg when the truth is closer to 30.  The argument to me was "well' it's comparable with the other competition for large SUVs" and they might have had a point unless you looked at smaller diesel engined ones or the new Jaguar F-Pace. (Their 3 litre diesel is mighty impressive).   That's no argument for publishing totally misleading claims though.  In the luxury car steaks, the new E350 is a lot more popular than the new GS.   All that is sort of irrelevant though since the largest market for the RX is the 'States, where 30mpg is good mileage!   They're all at it though, not just Lexus.

I'd put money on an improved hybrid coming in the next five years, possibly with more Battery storage for longer duration which is the only way they'll really get to grips with the mpg figures. That all adds weight though, so it's a bit on an en-passe at the minute with their current technology.  If they do come out with one in the next year or two, there''ll be a lot of disgruntled customers here who've just shelled out for the new RX at over £60K a pop.  

[ISJason]

I don't think the future is hybrids.. I think that full electric cars is the future , because if you look at people like Tesla, their cars can go a good 200 miles I believe ,before needing to be charged , so the days of the full electric equalling the range of petrol cars is virtually here already . I think Lexus will have to invest most money in building totally electric cars to keep up with Tesla and all the other companies that are bringing out electric cars.

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[DanD]

I think you are right and with more and more EVs coming onto the market, they will become more and more performant. I am certainly considering replacing our second car with something like a Renault Zoe, especially now that the Battery range has increased from 90 to 250 miles.

I also think that manual gearboxes will gradually disappear and be replaced with auto boxes.

I just hope that the industry will be able to recycle all these batteries when they get to their end of life.

[GSLV6]

I don't necessarily agree.  I think that until a more sustainable technology such as hydrogen fuel cells are available, there will always be customers, like myself, who will never buy a plug-in EV.  If the whole country did it, it'd come as no surprise if there wasn't sufficient generating power, or spinning reserve to cope at our power stations, and CO2 emissions would be no different since gas is used at many power stations.  You burn something to get the energy, so it makes more sense until we have to stop burning something, to develop practical hybrids.  Had the whole country been fed from nuclear power, then I can see EVs being a more sustainable solution, but for now, it's all kidology and people feeling good about themselves, when the truth is, they still use fossil fuels and still contribute to global C02 emissions.  Also, petrol hybrids are far less polluting than diesels.

The other thing is that 200 miles is hardly a practical proposition.  What if you want to drive 500 miles?  You'd need an overnight stop.  It would also put paid to our European trips due to timescales and end up coasting more for hotel stays etc.  It's just not practical for now.

I'm happy to invest in hybrid technology.  I can't see any viable real world alternative bettering it with some honest environmental considerations thrown in, for another 10 years until this country's sorted out the growing mess that it has got into regarding electricity generation security.  Why add to that problem?

[DanD]

Of course you are right with regards to the use of fossil fuels. Plug-ins just shift the problem somewhere else.

With regards to range (and range angst!), Battery technology keeps improving with longer ranges and shorter charging times, hence my point about the Renault Zoe. There are Tesla charging points at my local Sainsbury (Winchester in Hampshire), and I often see non-UK cars using them. I don't think that driving a plug-in presents insurmountable issues these days, just a bit of planning.

As for hydrogen, I don't know enough about it to comment, but it seems that very few manufacturers are promoting it. Could it just be because of a lack of funding from governments who seem more keen to support EVs?

[GSLV6]

I've no real issue with EVs in principle but at the minute, improving or not, they are no more sustainable than any other form of propulsion and batteries end up as highly toxic waste.  The cars are heavier, don't handle as well due to the weight.  The answer has to be in a sustainable fuel source and people have yet to develop the mindset that electricity is not the primary fuel source, but the final power source for the transmission.  Efficiency has to be called into question as there remain losses between primary fuel source and final drive, so no, I don't see it as "green" at all, quite the reverse in fact.

Trouble is, we (and other countries) have had successive governments backing the wrong horse, diesel, for several decades, and putting no real research into less polluting and more sustainable methods.  Honda, I believe, did a lot of research into hydrogen fuel cells a few years back and even developed a car that ran purely on hydrogen fuel cells powering the motors.  I believe that Clarkson even tested such a vehicle.  Little has been heard since, as the rush for diesels took the wind out of many car makers' sails.  I never bought the diesel argument and we're now full circle back to petrol engines being the lesser of two evils.  We'll see what the future holds, but Lexus, I do believe, have developed one of the only really honest hybrid systems, even if the compromises of significant mass, poorer handling and increased manufacturing costs are ever present.  They have to be admired for trying.

[royoftherovers]

8 minutes ago, GSLV6 said:

I've no real issue with EVs in principle but at the minute, improving or not, they are no more sustainable than any other form of propulsion and batteries end up as highly toxic waste.  The cars are heavier, don't handle as well due to the weight.  The answer has to be in a sustainable fuel source and people have yet to develop the mindset that electricity is not the primary fuel source, but the final power source for the transmission.  Efficiency has to be called into question as there remain losses between primary fuel source and final drive, so no, I don't see it as "green" at all, quite the reverse in fact.

Trouble is, we (and other countries) have had successive governments backing the wrong horse, diesel, for several decades, and putting no real research into less polluting and more sustainable methods.  Honda, I believe, as doing a lot of research into hydrogen fuel cells a few years back and even developed a car that ran purely on hydrogen fuel cells powering the motors.  I believe that Clarkson even tested such a vehicle.  Little has been heard since, as the rush for diesels took the wind out of many car makers' sails.  I never bought the diesel argument and we're now full circle back to petrol engines being the lesser of two evils.  We'll see what the future holds, by Lexus, I do believe, have developed one of the only really honest hybrid systems, even if the compromises of significant mass, poorer handling and increased manufacturing costs are ever present.  They have to be admired for trying.

Maybe, maybe not?

A future Lexus ?   https://ssl.toyota.com/mirai  and 

 

Regards

John

[GSLV6]

Nice find John.  That's a really interesting development.  Exactly the right sort of positive development needed for an EV proposition 

[Spacewagon52]

"the problem with most Lexus is you grow fonder of them the more you drive them, a test drive, even for 24hours just doesn't cut it "

 

I could not agree more. The longer you own a Lexus the more you appreciate how good they are.

 

 

[GSLV6]

I agree with that.  I've had mine several years now, and it still puts a smile on my face every time I drive it. It's such a reassuringly refined drive with plenty of performance when needed, and despite some car magazine idiots judging everything in terms of  BMW M5 and the Nurburgring, I find that the GS handling is reassuring too.  It's an almost perfect blend of ride and refinement that I've not encountered with any other vehicle, combined with the most comfortable seating you'll come across.   That and the reliability, quality of paintwork, panel fit, interiors and kit just sets them apart from the competition.  Merc come close but still, unless you're into S-Class, not close enough.  BMW come nowhere near. Audi are over-hyped and not as reliable nor as cosseting inside.  I'm a Lexus convert but do have my reservations about where they're going. I do think that they're losing some of that exclusivity to try and be "one of the gang"..to fit in with the rest, and that is the antithesis of what they once were, and not that long ago either.

[royoftherovers]

9 minutes ago, GSLV6 said:

I agree with that.  I've had mine several years now, and it still puts a smile on my face every time I drive it. It's such a reassuringly refined drive with plenty of performance when needed, and despite some car magazine idiots judging everything in terms of  BMW M5 and the Nurburgring, I find that the GS handling is reassuring too.  It's an almost perfect blend of ride and refinement that I've not encountered with any other vehicle, combined with the most comfortable seating you'll come across.   That and the reliability, quality of paintwork, panel fit, interiors and kit just sets them apart from the competition.  Merc come close but still, unless you're into S-Class, not close enough.  BMW come nowhere near. Audi are over-hyped and not as reliable nor as cosseting inside.  I'm a Lexus convert but do have my reservations about where they're going. I do think that they're losing some of that exclusivity to try and be "one of the gang"..to fit in with the rest, and that is the antithesis of what they once were, and not that long ago either.

I tell those who ask me what the Lexus is like............

"it`s like being on the flight deck of Concorde and the bridge of the USS Enterprise at the same time. An absolute thrill."

 

Regards

 

John

[Glover]

I've had my RX450 for just over 6 months now so thought I'd add my experience of my first few months to this very interesting thread. 

Quite simply it is the smoothest, most comfortable car I have ever owned.    It's deceptively quick even in eco mode and I don't think you'll find any problems overtaking on country roads.  I don't think there's any lag with the petrol engine but even if there was the electric motors will respond immediately.  It's not a Ferrari but then again you can't carry 5 passengers and all their luggage in supreme comfort in a sports car.  I have it switched to eco all the time; it appears to give a good balance of performance and economy. As a result it's also reasonably economical (I've done just shy of 7,000 miles and averaging just over 37mpg over that whole period).  In the summer I averaged just under 39mpg.  My daily commute is 5 miles each way with mainly stop/start city traffic and the final mile or so reasonably clear.  In the summer I got 38mpg on that run in the winter 32-34 but there is the benefit of heated seats to offset the slightly reduced mpg:-).   I don't drive slowly but as many on this forum have commented you do adapt your driving style and anticipate a lot more so that you can coast or brake gently.

It's not absolutely perfect; there's the odd thump on some potholes but it's more obvious because it's usually quiet.  You hear the engine if you floor the pedal but it's not an unpleasant sound and once up to speed serene calm descends once again.  As with any car it's a compromise but it's probably the best of all SUVs at managing the issues of handling, economy etc. that big, heavy, tall vehicles face.

Everybody young and old comments positively about it; they're amazed by the looks, finish, comfort, toys etc.  From opening the door by touching the handle to the seat and steering wheel gliding into position it's just a series of wows (or appreciative swear words from the teens and twenties!).

I first looked at the RX in October last year and also the GS but in my opinion the RX feels more special.  I waited until May this year then decided to pop down to my dealer for another look and they'd just put my dream RX, a pre-facelift Advance with low miles, cream leather and sunroof on the forecourt.  A short test drive and I signed on the dotted line!  The first drive was amazing and it just keeps getting better so keep looking and I'm sure you'll find your ideal RX soon.

[Carl911]

It might just be me but something knowone has mentioned. Just how lovely are the electric window buttons to operate, I mean they have this soft touch feel and the way the window starts to descend slow then speeds up before slowing again before it reaches bottom so that nothing ever clunks or rattles. It does the same on the way up. Even the way the button itself switches is just sublime.It's just one of the many rediculous engineering touches that set this car above the rest. Please tell me I'm not completely sad-lol.

carl

[royoftherovers]

It is not just you Carl; it happens to most of us--we are in love (again). The body, the curves, the idiosyncracies, etc. Continue to enjoy.;););)

 

Regards

John

[Malc]

On 16/12/2016 at 8:59 PM, Spacewagon52 said:

"the problem with most Lexus is you grow fonder of them the more you drive them, a test drive, even for 24hours just doesn't cut it "

 

I could not agree more. The longer you own a Lexus the more you appreciate how good they are.

 

 

and for me it's 15 years and continuing ....  couldn't agree more with these sentiments and I've driven most types of luxury petrol car ( but not Ferrari, Lamborghini, Porsche ... .  and probably some others too  ....  but why worry, the older Ls400s are just BRILLIANT  )

Malc

[GSLV6]

Great write up Geoff.  My wife and I have looked at several now, test driven a couple and have decided to make the investment. We've been looking a while and would like buy Lexus approved for peace of mind.  Our local Listers dealer has only 3 in stock that tick the boxes, one just sold!  The other isn't the colour I want (I would like metallic pearl White Or Celestial metallic black) and as we're buying used, we want to hold out for the Mark Levinson Option too, and preferably the design pack with front/rear sump guards and roof rails, but it narrows down choices a lot as there aren't many available.  We'll hang on for a bit as I don't want to buy something only to see the open we wanted appear a week or two later!

[Spacewagon52]

I find the chase more exciting than owning the car!

[GSLV6]

I used to tell my wife the same thing......

[rayaans]

3 hours ago, GSLV6 said:

Great write up Geoff.  My wife and I have looked at several now, test driven a couple and have decided to make the investment. We've been looking a while and would like buy Lexus approved for peace of mind.  Our local Listers dealer has only 3 in stock that tick the boxes, one just sold!  The other isn't the colour I want (I would like metallic pearl White Or Celestial metallic black) and as we're buying used, we want to hold out for the Mark Levinson Option too, and preferably the design pack with front/rear sump guards and roof rails, but it narrows down choices a lot as there aren't many available.  We'll hang on for a bit as I don't want to buy something only to see the open we wanted appear a week or two later!

You might be in luck if I decide to sell :D

Still looking for an ex demo 4RX though!

[GSLV6]

1 hour ago, rayaans said:

You might be in luck if I decide to sell :D

Still looking for an ex demo 4RX though!

4RX....does that = Mk4 RX?

Nice car, especially specc'd up with Graphite paint and rose interior.  I prefer that interior to the old saddle-tan which just looked a bit too garish.