Which Model? GS450H or RX450H?

[GSLV6]

I don't know if this is the best place to post the question, so I've posted it both here and in the RX section.  My wife and I are considering buying a newer Lexus but aren't yet sold on the idea unless there's benefit in doing so.  We like our GS300 (2007 model SE), and over the past two years have sunk a lot of money into it.  Fair to say, it has not (unusually) been the most reliable car we've owned (that was a merc C220 diesel estate which did star- ship mileage with no real issues whatsoever bar a few faulty sensors).  In 18 months on a car bought with just 64K miles, it's had a couple of shock absorbers, a complete new cat back exhaust, two new HID bulbs (£80 odd plus vat and fitting each), new TPMS valves (£383 just for the valves), a reflash of the ECU because the boot opener packed in for no reason anyone understands, a complete engine out and top end strip and rebuild to replace a failed hydraulic tappet (the lot were done....cost £3200), wheels refurb due to flaking finish (£340) and professional front end respray due to bubbling of paint on bonnet (£770).  Fair to say, we're a bit fed up with the expense, and whilst we accept any 10 year old car will need stuff doing....this one has needed too much stuff doing to justify its reliability reputation.

On the positive side, it's reasonably frugal for what it is, roomy, with a huge boot and ski flap, handles very well for the size, very comfy, and runs perfectly (now!) and performance is brisk with safe overtakes a breeze when needed.  It is also refined and very quiet in the cabin and has loads of kit.   We've only covered 12K miles in it since we've bought it.  I am considering whether to move to the newer GS450H for the advances in Lexus trickle-down technology and reliability so duly visited the dealership and had a quick look at a 450H Lux car.  My first impressions weren't overly favourable if honest. It seemed to have less space in the cabin and in the back, the boot was considerably smaller (Battery housing), and most disappointingly, the levels of kit and comfort that we enjoy in the GS300 just aren't there except as options!  Come on Lexus, what re you playing at?  You charge close on £50K for a new GS and offer less kit as standard than the outgoing GS300...really?  "What sort of way is that to treat your customers?" was the first thought followed by "greed".  No passenger 10 way adjustable memory seats (no driver 10-way seats for that matter);  no premium sound system (which I do have in mine), less rear leg room, no through "ski flap" (pesky batteries again) but a  considerably larger price tag and really only marginally better real world fuel consumption.  I was left scratching my head.

I know that I will have missed something, if not a lot here, so am inviting you GS450h drivers to fill me in...educate me, and convince me...where's the draw here?  What is the convincing factor?  Is it that much better to drive, day to day, is it quieter, faster and safer on over-takes?  Does it deliver its extra-urban claimed fuel efficiency? Is it more reliable and is it more comfortable?  Why should a Mk3/4 GS300 owner exchange for a newer model?  Must admit, I am struggling to see the hook here.  I can't stretch to a low miles F-Sport (a different car with a definite draw....performance and handling), nor to a Premium version (which only has what mine seems to have as standard anyway).  Your comments/observations invited.  I'd love to hear your stories and what you think is great about the new models.  I am considering a low miles 2012 to 2014 Lux spec model if I decide to go that route.

The second part of this is the alternative.  As I do need the boot space (young family plus my hobbies need the boot space).  The RX450h is the obvious choice...that is until you scratch beneath the surface.  FWD instead of RWD (black mark?).  Rear motor not strong enough for genuine off road ability (black mark?);  Very steep price tag for what's on offer....compared with a Range Rover or say Land Rover disco sport which it closer competes with, the Landy offers way more comfort and kit.  X3/5 better to drive and Merc GLS, whilst 10K pricier is arguably worth the extra if you had the cash.  So whilst I love the seating position in the RX, and regard it as very comfortable (I have looked at one, again in Lux spec), there appear to be downsides.  Handling isn't meant to be a strong point, but most surprisingly, there are reports that it isn't capable of rapid progress for safe overtaking due to struggling with the additional weight.  I'm unsure why it doesn't come with the same power 450H powerplants as the GS, which by comparison can't be accused of being a slouch.

I can forgive the fact that it'll never match a saloon in the handling stakes.  I can overlook the FWD only option on 450 guise if it drives ok, but I couldn't overlook a 2 tonne plus vehicle with a large petrol hybrid powerplant that can't safely overtake if the opportunity exists except where a mile straight is concerned.  I did like the rear load space, the finish, the room and the comfort, so again, unless I'm missing something, is that what this one's about...just the comfort and load space but forget any pretence of modest performance or ride quality?  Love to hear from those with feedback.

If I did change my GS to another lexus, it would only be for one of the above two models.  The IS is simply too small with insufficient load space and the test drives I've had revealed a sound handling decent motorcar, utterly ruined by a very small but very stupid oversight...no adjustability of the seat headrests  resulting in my neck aching unless the seat was set too far reclined for comfort.  I couldn't live with that, nor with the lack of family space.

I'm struggling here...do I continue to pour money into the old GS, and rely on the powerplant taking me to 300K miles, accepting that suspension, brakes and other consumables will all need costly replacement in due course, plus put up with increased punitive road fund tax and higher running costs, or is there a genuine case for going the a 450 hybrid?

Sorry for the long post.  Just looking for real world feedback on the issues which I have found when seriously looking for an excuse to part with hard earned to change up.  The Merc E350 estate or Jag XF are both looking mighty tempting at the minute as the better alternatives but I hope that the Lexus models have something that I'm missing with my initial observations.  I am test driving both so will be better able to judge but that's no substitute for feedback from some of you longer term owners.  I would like to stay in the "Lexus Club" as the service offered by Listers is second to none by my own experiences.

[Boddney]

Maybe you should look backwards instead of forwards. What I mean is, as you have stated, the newer cars are smaller, less well equipped and less reliable. I went backwards from a 2010 to a 2002 well looked after GS300. It's fully loaded, massive in every aspect and pretty much bullet proof. I couldn't be happier. I know there's the snob factor to consider and the golf club car park jokes to put up with, but at least I can get two golf trolleys in and two sets of clubs without taking the long clubs out the bag first. Including shoes, coats and all the other gubbins. That's more than the Micky takers can do with their flash new C class's. Faffing about put things on the back seats. You may not play golf but most hobbie gear and family clutter applies.

My car is also a rare sight on the the roads and often turns heads as it still looks awesome and the best bit is I only paid £1000 for it so no monthly outgoing HP or PCP.

Just my opinion and maybe worth a thought.

Bod

P.S. Love your long post. It's rare to see someone write a piece these days with proper grammar and spelling and make sense.

[GSLV6]

Thanks for your response Boddney.  Yes, I am really approaching this from looking backwards to what I already have if that makes sense?  Certainly if I was in the market for a limo-class car, I'd be looking at an LX 430, a car so well made, that it made the company little profit, if any, as a statement piece.  You can pick one up for well under £10K, and probably closer to £5K if you look hard enough.  That's value.

I have just returned from a test drive of both the RX and the GS.  They held a few unexpected surprises, and a few things that I probably expected. To start with the newer GS, it was a surprisingly quiet and refined drive, quieter I think than the old model with improved suspension, brakes and handling (big tick all round for driving then).  Handling was very good and performance brisker than it felt, as the CVT does mask rapid progress over the standard 6 speed auto.  However, it lacked both the space and comfort of the older model, and had less on-board goodies.  Our SE has a Mark Levinson surround sound audio package as standard, rear sunshade, folding mirrors, memory seats with ventilation as well as heating, and a huge boot.  The newer car has none of those things and the seating I found too firm for my liking in the Lux model.  The seat adjustments also weren't as comprehensive.

The RX felt more like the older GS in the cabin, more familiar and way more comfortable.  In fact, it was possibly the most comfortable vehicle that I've ever sat in.  I didn't like the intrusive road noise nor the rather choppy suspension, but remembering it's an SUV weighing in at over two tons, suspension has to be firm to prevent excessive body-roll.  The surprise was the comfort, the roomy bright cabin, and for a large vehicle, it really felt more like a super-mini to drive.  Loads of load space.  What was disappointing was the lack of shove.  I tried a simulated overtake, going from 30 to 50mph on an empty stretch of A-road.  It seemed to take an age compared with either of the GS models (ie new or old), made a lot of noise and fuss, a little like stepping off a sports-bike and throwing your leg over a Harley...lots of noise but little action!  To be fair, it wasn't very scientific and we didn't even time both tests...it just felt a lot slower than a 295 BHP vehicle had any right to, especially one with close on 135BHP/ton power-to-weight ratio.  We have a 2007 Skoda Fabia diesel hatch which would leave it for dead in a straight line.

On the positive side, it was very flexible in layout, front and rear, had loads of cubby-spaces and rear load room although height is compromised.  Also, it didn't under-steer as much as I expected it to, bearing in mind it's a FWD with a 3.5 litre lump sat over the wheels, although it was still apparent because turn in wasn't as sharp as either GS model.  It tracked well though and steering was light and positive.

Of the two, we're leaning towards the RX, because as an every day car, we can live with its compromises but we can't justify the compromises of the newer GS, at least in "Lux'" specification.  The performance alone was no justification or reason for trading "up".  You nailed it with looking backwards.  The new GS to my mind is a trade down in specification and in comfort unless one pulls out a larger wad of notes for the Premium or F-Sport models.

I guess in conclusion, we wouldn't change our 2007 GS 300 for either of the models test driven.  It feels faster, more refined overall, has more space than the newer one, is as well screwed together ( if not better).  We could be tempted to a premier or F-Sport version of the newer GS or the RX. My guess is that if we re-asses things like safe overtaking shove on the RX and give it a fairer workout, and it delivers, we'd go down that route for the simple reason that it offered far better comfort and space for no more money.  Time will tell.  Lexus will be contacting us in due course when an appropriate model turns up, but for now, we're very happy with our 2007 "banger"!  Wwe'd have to re-assess realistic budget though for the trade up to a Premier or F-Sport, so that makes the decision more difficult. It's that or we look at something with a few more miles on the clock.  

[Guest]

The Rx 450h has plenty of power when you need it even when its not in sport mode,we have had ours over a year now and find it quiet, spacious and very comfortable as well as economical considering its size.

[GSLV6]

I can only speak as I found it Eame64, and it simply doesn't have anywhere near the acceleration of my GS300.  It boils down to what you're used to I suppose, but a "performance" vehicle, it is not.  Neither was it quiet, again, compared with the GS. The difference in cabin noise is really marked.

[ISJason]

Hi.. just to correct someone.. I can't remember who said it.. but they said that the RX didn't have kick down.. I can assure them it does.. I used it today..;-)..its pretty well disguised due to the size of the engine, but all you have to do is blip the throttle.

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

[Lexus4Me?]

Gosh you've had a lot of problems. I'm rather scared having last year invested rather more cash than I would have liked in a GS450h Premier. If I get the sort of problems you have had in the next few years I'll be on my uppers. I've previously preferred rougher cars with a bit of poke but liked what the Lexus seemed to offer. Maybe it was time to buy an old git's car now that I am one. It is smooth, very comfortable and looks splendid. It is nice having the power on tap but it delivers that power so elegantly I don't always appreciate it. No bellowing exhaust no churning engine. Good fuel economy for its performance but mine costs more in depreciation than fuel per mile. I'm not so sure about the gadgets - of course I wanted them when I was looking at the options but I'm not sure 18 way electrical adjustment of the seats is really necessary as with my old cars with a few manual adjustments I get it to suit me and leave it at that. Passengers big and small seem quite comfortable without adjusting the seats despite my trying to impress them with the plethora of controls. Automatically lifting steering wheel and sliding back seat is impressive but not exactly necessary (but maybe in a few years it will help me disembark onto my Zimmer frame). Mark Levinson - lovely and better than my Dansette it is true but is it so much better than my old Pioneer stereo? At my age can I really tell the difference? I actually find it surprisingly quiet even when turned fully up but if I wind up the bass the parcel shelf bounces, the rear view mirror wobbles and I'm sure the sub-woofer coil wouldn't last long. Of course as a gadget fancier i looked at the F-Sport - variable ratio front steering and rear wheel steering too but I hated the black headlining (why can't it be an option for Goths?) and the aluminium trim is clearly much too vulnerable to denting and doubtless a fortune to replace (I'm puzzled by the whole wood/aluminium strips stuck into the dash idea as if in some sort of homage to pre-war burr walnut veneer in the days when one needed a bit of timber to hold the knobs and dials), I couldn't find the front fog lights either but the salesmen told me it  had a more aggressive look (who do I need to frighten?).

Sorry I don't know anything about the RX so I can't help your choice there. Good luck with whatever you choose and maybe Boddney has a good point. Perhaps I should sell you mine and buy yours - the latter can't have much more to go wrong can it?

[GSLV6]

It seems to be sorted now Barry, and I'm not really drawn to the newer GS.  It does offer a little more economy and more performance, but the truth is, pub heroes to one side, that the 247BHP of the GS300 is plenty enough for anyone, as it offers rapid progress and safe overtaking shove when needed.  It's more than enough.  Whether it is or isn't roomier in dimensional terms, it feels roomier and more comfortable to the new 450H but I haven't yet tried the Premier or F-Sport options which may better the Lux spec seating which I found too firm.  It also sacrifices considerable practicality (no ski flap which I find useful when visiting the DIY stores etc for getting longer items into the car) and boot space.  Is the performance and little extra economy worth paying £20,000 plus giving my car over for?  The conclusion I've come to is "no, not at all".  I also prefer the styling of the mk3 GS cars.  It does seem more elegant and has a few rounder curves.

Now the RX is more thought provoking simply for the comfort on offer, the improved cabin space and the improved practicality of that large boot space, plus the ability to fold the seats flat or slide them forwards.  It would be worth it, and I wouldn't even post about it, if the hybrid technology was, say, 5 years ahead of what it is now.  Lexus have already made good strides to improving economy between the pre 2016 and 2016 model RX450.  However, the RX, again, offers perhaps just 4 or 5mpg at most over my GS300 on economy, costs more to service and insure, has higher tyre prices and much higher depreciation.  The smart move would be to wait 10 years, and buy a really good 5 year old low miles example.  By that time, hybrid tech will have moved on a generation, power and economy will no doubt improve, and I won't mind the depreciation on a 5 year old example so much. As I'm well into middle age now, I don't really want to give it another 10 years (!) so am thinking about a move now.  Whilst the GS is now sorted and should stay reliable, I could use the extra practicality of the RX.  It all boils down to whether I'd live to regret it on day to day driving over the GS, which has no real vices or annoyances.  It's a good solid, well made motorcar