Diesel bashing

[Shahpor]

Chaps, I have a concern.

I feel that this forum is perhaps taking its distaste for the IS 220d/200d a bit too far.

Now, before I say anything else, I want to make absolutely clear that I appreciate that everyone is entitled to their own opinions.

So, here is the crux of the matter;  This place seem to be becoming an unhappy place for diesel owners.  I am sure many of you have seen this:

This is just an example.  I too feel a bit disheartened when I visit here sometimes.  Having said that, let me be clear that I still like this place enough that I am not going anywhere.  It is just it can be a bit frustrating sometimes.

Anyway, there are two main points I would like to elaborate on.

 

First, and perhaps most importantly, I think the 220d/200d has gained a somewhat unfair reputation on this forum.  The way people talk about it on here makes it sound like the worst car in the entire world!  I am sure I am not the only diesel Lexus owner that is happy with theirs.  People that have been around forums enough know what the problem is - that when the car is working fine, no one hears about it.  What tends to happen is:

My Lexus has/might be broken - Let me do a quick internet search on it - oh look, a Lexus forum - I will start a thread to see if people can help.

Conversely, the owner that is happy plodding along, or just isn't a big internet/forum person, says nothing.

When I spoke to the guys at the service department at Lexus Reading, they told me that they have quite a few happy diesel owners.

 Second, people on here tend to repeat second hand information.  Whenever someone posts an issue with their car, there will be the inevitable comment about the number of issues that are on this forum and how they bought the wrong car.  More often than not, these people have never owned the 220d/200d, but are just repeating the same sayings again and again.  This is perpetuating a negative stereotype without adding any new information.

 

Right, so having said that, let me says a couple of quick things:

I am not attacking anyone in particular on here, and have no issues with anyone.

Is the IS 250 better than the IS 220d/200d?  Yes, it is.

Is the diesel for everyone?  No.  If you do mainly town driving/short journeys, then a diesel car in general is not for you.

Does the diesel IS have any inherent flaws (failures)?  Only one that is unique to the IS 220d, and that is the head gasket problem.  All the other issues can either be related to the petrol IS, or to diesel cars in general.  As for the head gasket, most of those affected cars should have been fixed by now, and engine problems are hardly a unique Lexus problem, are they?  Nikasil bore wear?  Con rod bolt BMW?  Head gaskets Rover K series/Ford St 220 V6?

Anyway, if you have made it this far down, well done to you   There is actually not much to be said really, just something I wanted to get off my chest.

[Shahpor]

A good example of what I am talking about has appeared already:

 

[Linas.P]

What can I say.. you can stand up and be proud about yourself.. you are one of very few IS220d drivers who managed to live with the beast.

All you said above is true - I must admit I am probably one of the harshest IS220d critics around, but I would genuinely buy one myself for a right price and in right condition. If you know the car well, if you know what to expect and what to look after I am sure it is possible to live with IS220d. But that is exactly the problem... people unaware of these cars and their problems often gets in trouble.

Now lets head straight to the problem e.g. the thread you mentioned. They look adorable luxury cars for the price of rusted bucket and people without prior knowledge or any research gets in this trap. IS220d now is reaching certain age and value at which cars starts to be neglected, there are more and more such cars on the market, which looks reasonable year, mileage and quite cheap. People who are not aware of such cars and their particular problems buys the thinking of getting good deal and what they get is the bomb about to explode. Whenever it is dodgy sellers or lack of research, market of IS220d is becoming minefield and this trend will only increase.

Now being honest can you tell me any Lexus model overall which is worse than IS220d? That is not your car in particular, which I am sure is looked after very well and in very good shape, but the model as a whole. Starting from LS400... IS200/300.. GS.... up until now all Lexus'es were known for their exceptional reliability... and I mean exceptional... except one - the 2005-2009 IS220d... it is by far the worst car Lexus ever made. I am sorry but that is true. Nobody says that there are no worse or less reliable cars overall, but as a Lexus IS220d is the worst cars of the company.

I almost think that Lexus should buy back all IS220d's and discard them, because without prior knowledge of the brand and other models some people are getting very bad image. To kind to soften the tone a bit I can say ... yeah but all Peugeot, half Renault/Citroen are far worse.. and that is true, but they are consistently bad and unreliable.. therefore there are no particular model which is hated. With Lexus is a bit different.. all cars are exceptionally good except one.. and that is why it gets so much criticism.. Not because it is such a bad car overall, but because Lexus could definitely do better than that.

On top of that IS220d is a bit odd ball as well, kind of mixture of unfortunate decisions. The gearbox... all the way weird, weird gear ratios.. why no auto option is mystery as well. Obviously, Lexus tried to jump bang wagon with Germans while British government was blindly (and rather negligently) was promoting diesels for no good reason. So they throw wrong engine in otherwise great design, they throw not matching gearbox... and not surprisingly car end up not refined, unreliable and overall short of expectation from typical Lexus buyer. And that is very important as well - short of expectation. When you buy Peugeot.. you kind of expect it to be crap (or more likely I don't know sh** about the cars), but when you buy Lexus you expect exceptional reliability. So again is not that bad car overall, but maybe buyers simply expects much more. 

 

[Shahpor]

Linas, I actually think you understand the diesel/petrol thing more than most on here.

Overall, I agree with what you say.

However, you kinda prove my point in your first sentence; how do you know there are not many more people out there equally happy with their diesel Lexus's?

Now, to answer your question, yes, the IS220d is the worst car Lexus has produced.  But, as you point out, worst of one of the best brands is still better than a lot of cars out there.

Is the 220d up the usual Lexus standards?  No.  But, having said that, I do think there is still a place for it here under certain conditions.

Also, why there was no auto option is equally strange to me.  I think it would have made the overall experience a lot better if it were auto.

Yes, I agree that some people might be buying them because they expect a certain level of reliability that the Lexus name implies, but to be honest, like I said before, a lot of the issues are to do with being a diesel in general rather than any specific 220d failings.  So, in that respect, it is just simply lack of research that is to blame.  As you know, I do the kind of journeys that a diesel car is made for and have had many trouble free miles as a result.

As previously mentioned, this is more about perception than actually failings.

By the way, I would like to thank you for such a detailed reply.  It seems you have put some thought into the matter.

[Linas.P]

No probs.. I kind of understand you feelings, because you are part of community and you equally trying to help others, but every time you come to the topic and it says that you car is rubbish kind of demotivating and unfair. To be honest every time I write bad comment about IS220d I always think about you, but it would be quite funny if everyone would put disclaimer after each comment "IS220d is not great car... well except Yorkie's and Shahpor's examples".

Equally, I completely agree that majority of disappointment and problems are lack of research, be that about IS220d specifically or diesel cars overall. However, when you have somebody asking about their purchase and it is obvious they got tricked in buying lemon .. it is hard to say "you know these cars are not that bad overall, you just been unlucky to pick up one with many problems .. which are kind of not that uncommon to be right". Obviously, the advise goes simply by saying "get IS250 AT", because there is not enough time to explain all politics to everyone.

So I guess I woudl summarise by saying - "you must know what you are doing if you consider getting IS220d". Equally even completely run down and neglected IS220d might be worth buying, but the price must reflect the work which is needed to get it going.  

[Shahpor]

Well said Linas

I will admit that every time I see a new thread with a 220d problem, I think 'not another one!'.  Is it bad that I am actually a little happy when it turns out that a new problem thread is about a 250 instead?

Oh, and for what it's worth, my next car will probably be petrol and auto.  Having said that, I am going to miss my 220d when it's gone.

[Linas.P]

"I wish I have little bit of space... IS220d with blown-up engine, one spare V8 ... a bit of time.. and we would have one IS-F on the budget.." - I know it is late so I might be dreaming :D

[Shahpor]

Well, as dreams go, it is a good one

Speaking of dreams, time for bed.  Perhaps I will have some nice Lexus diesel dreams of my own?

[ahmedali44]

I do understand ur frustration about everyone bashing is220d but it has common issues like any other car. I had is220d for 2yrs was quite happy apart from few issues but that was due to less usage of car. 

Lexus should address common issues under warranty. 

Is250 is more suitable for me as milage I do, sometimes don't drive for 2-3 weeks. 

[rayaans]

I don't think the car is bad relative to others in terms of reliability. 

I think it's more of an issue how the engine doesn't seem to fit the Lexus philosophy of low NVH.

[peachy]

I remember when I first bought my lexus is220d from my dad. proud as punch I was to own such a prestige vehicle . I fell in love with the car and the lexus brand. I then joined this forum and soon became disheartened reading about the various problems associated with this vehicle.

Unfortunately the majority of the problems happened to me over my year ownership beginning with the head gasket but the head gasket can go on any car. Ive owned many cars over the years and this is actually my 4th car to blow a gasket along with a ford orion 16i, rover gsi and the car I owned before a vauxhall astra 2.2 Sri with only 40000 miles on the clock.

My other 2 main issues with the car being the egr and the dpf. I put this problem down to my mostly city driving. short 6 mile trips daily to work and back and trips to the shops. My dad was the same. The car rarely got any good runs at speed on the motorway . 

I think if this car is used as it was designed for which is lots of motorway miles then it can indeed be problem free and reliable . 

 

 

 

[Shahpor]

Thanks for the comments chaps.

Yep, I do believe that most of the issues associated with the 220d are diesel related, namely EGR valve and DPF.

Shaun, if you had come on here before getting yours and told us you only did short journeys, you would have been told in no uncertain terms to not get the diesel.

And to be fair to Lexus, they do cover the EGR valve and DPF under their extended warranty should any problems arise.

I do agree with you @rayaan that the engine is hardly the quietest or smoothest engine out there.

[peachy]

Your right shahpor the diesel was the wrong choice for me concidering the low milage I do but when my dad offered me a 2008 lexus is with 60000 on the clock for 2 grand I simply couldn't refuse.

Despite the problems I had I still loved the car because after all its a lexus is.

[doog442]

.

[Wisty]

I guess one of the most encouraging (depending on your view point I guess!) aspects, is that these issues are not Lexus specific.  The Alfa diesel I had LED me a merry dance with EGR related tomfoolery, and that's before we start to discuss suspension components forged from the finest Italian cheese!  Likewise, my in-law's Skoda Fabia diesel's dash lit up like a Christmas tree and cost them the thick end of £500 following a clogged EGR/DPF.

The issue seems to me to be a general lack of education of the motoring public - surely the sales people have a duty to inform the punter of the limitations of diesels when they... no, wait, they're just happy to take your money as the Government says diesels are a-ok!  

On a related note, on my way home from work I often see a Mondeo TDCi that the owner has added a little tag-line below the TDCi badge that reads "Have you been mis-sold TDI?"  Always raises a smile.

[Guest]

Been a while since i last commented, but felt I needed to defend the IS220d... I must be the very few to say that my is220d has been a true survivor for me. In the 2 and a half years of ownership and covering nearly 40k miles i have not had to worry about any of the issues that others had complained about nor have I had to spend a penny on non-service parts! Serviced on point using only genuine parts and still running perfectly to this day (touch-wood) i did have to buy wipers the other day :(

I have had many cars, ranging from many manufacturers, this infact is my 2nd lexus - and i would defo buy again :)

I have the is220d SE-i 2009 148g/km (revised model) and believe it or not... I would recommend!

[Shahpor]

Some nice and encouraging words guys, nice one

Although I am now curious as to what @doog442 had to say

Yep, if I didn't do the motorway mileage that I do, I wouldn't consider a diesel either.  Chris is right in that people need to know these things when buying cars.

Ismael, since you have done nearly 40k in 2 and a half years, it seems that your car get used quite a bit.  Since this is exactly what diesels are good at, I am not surprised yours has done so well.

It is also a case of the right conditions I think.  Fuel consumption becomes more of an issue the more miles you do, and there can be no doubt that the 220d is more fuel efficient than the 250.  Also, when I am going up and down the M4, I just love it when I flex my right foot and it just takes off without any fuss.  Makes overtaking very easy.

Although, I do think that the car would be so much better if it had an automatic gearbox.

[Spacewagon52]

An excellent discussion, where everyone was polite!  I real pleasure to read.

[Spacewagon52]

I thought the above discussion was one of the best I have read in a while, where people disagree. It is a shame when people take it personally. We need more polite discussions - well done chaps!

The diesel/petrol debate is a very interesting one. I have my feet in both camps. I have the LS400 and a Mitsubishi Grandis diesel (VW 2.0 TDI engine). 

Working out economy (££££££) overall is very subjective rather than objective for most people. The figures (total £) do not always seem to add up to me. People will spend £20,000 plus on a car but choose a diesel to save £500 a year on fuel. The total cost of ownership is the bottom line but few people (including me) work that one out. When you go the pumps and it costs £85 to fill up – that is immediate and makes people wince. I have just come back from a trip to Bristol in the LS 400 (approx. 400 mile round trip). In the Lexus I get 30 mpg, in the Grandis 42 mpg. I would rather pay the extra for such a wonderful journey! Obviously if you are doing 15,000 miles plus each year, then diesel is a better option – but work out exactly how much extra it will cost in fuel. Car expenditure is not always worked out with spreadsheets but how we “feel” at the time. MPG is just one factor (though major) to be taken into consideration. I am not sure many new cars would give me such a superb ride to Bristol and back as the LS 400 – and at a fraction of the purchase price. A major mechanical breakdown can wipe out that economy at a stroke.

Diesel/Petrol – horses for courses. Just my thoughts

[normski2]

Quite so ..... and it seems most if not all of the modern breed of diesels need to be motorway munchers. They need the longer trips to get the internally built cleaning methods working. Getting the diesel to be more environmentally friendly has come with quite a few consequences .... those things that are not explained(or probably even understood) by the dealers or second hand traders.

I had a 220d and fell foul of the head gasket problem after 6 weeks of ownership ... I was lucky to have Lexus sort it out ( for £4600). My 220d was one of the good'uns it would seem...I would get 39-44mpg with relative ease and up to 54 on a good run.  The turbo was great and really gave it some oomph and the cabin was a nice place to be at speed....less so pootling around town. The gearbox took some getting used to, 6th was never used. The EGR was a pain for clogging so I cleaned it every 6000 miles and I regularly used additives to the fuel to assist with a cleaner burn. Then I began to realise the folly of having a diesel that was not doing big miles annually.

So........here I am now with a 250 Auto and absolutely love it. Honestly can't think of anything I'd rather have .... apart from my missus' MX5 for a couple of hours open top fun every now and then.

As an aside, we're off to see our Son in Bristol at the weekend. The 220d would average 44mpg  and the 250 returns 34mpg on the exact same route.

 

[normski2]

Rebecca ... this is how to clean the EGR. It's well worth learning and doing it every 6-8000 miles. Once you've done it a couple of times its easy and can be done in 30 minutes.

 

[Shahpor]

@Spacewagon52 Glad you are enjoying the thread, and thanks for the kind words.  Perhaps this thread is an example of the kind of people that come on here?

I believe you are right in thinking that people don't perhaps consider the total costs of ownership when it comes to petrol/diesel and just consider the cost at the pumps.  If I hadn't done over 10k mostly motorway miles last year, I too would have thought twice about getting a diesel.  As it turns out, it has worked well for me.  There is a possibility of my journeys changing soon to short town driving, which would mean my 220d would no longer be suitable.

@normski2 39-44mpg is very good!  I wish I could manage that.  If I am relatively careful, I can manage 38-40mpg.  I was shocked to discover that I have recently been spending between £120-130 a month on fuel!

By the way, I think your second post is in the wrong thread.  Hers is called New lexus problems

[peachy]

Normski2 God only knows how you got that sort of mpg. I couldn't even get 40mpg on a motorway run at 65mph with cruise control . driving around town I was lucky to see 30mpg and I'm quite light footed.

Now my new 250 has really surprised me. I'm actually getting better mpg. Just today I did a 20 mile motorway run at 65mph in cruise and got 43 mpg. Even driving around town I'm seeing 35mpg.

I was expecting poor mpg when I bought this car but I'm delighted with what I'm seeing . 

[doog442]

22 hours ago, Shahpor said:

Although I am now curious as to what @doog442 had to say

 

In the spirit of the thread and the forum itself I deleted my post as I felt I was being unduly harsh. You can understand the anger and frustration of people years ago paying out £20K plus for what was a bit of a let down.

Lexus were riding high after the IS200...the IS220d was almost a nail in the coffin I feel compared to the opposition and I don't think they recovered whilst BMW and Audi have forged ahead in the mass market stakes. 

However these things are for sale for £2000......I had no idea about the head gasket issues until someone put me right. I guess they are value for money if you can find one thats been sorted......

 

best of luck

[rayaans]

On a more positive note, it's always been the 220ds which have suffered from known issues.

I've not done across an IS200d on the forum with problems yet?