Next Purchase?

[Eire Lexus]

Ganzoom, to be fair we all acknowledge Tesla technology is impressive and performance is unrivalled, but this is a Lexus forum and if your so unhappy with Lexus not doing an EV option then go and buy 2 Tesla and tell them in their forum how bad Lexus are for not going EV route. Not all of us actually want an EV and have to pay 70k.

Toyota are the biggest and most profitable car maker and to think they have nothing going on behind the scenes to me would be hard to believe. I'm not saying they are production ready but with their resources they could just buy the technology. The EV market is still too small for mass market and Toyota is a mass market maker. EV vehicles will for sure be part of the future but all those traditional car manufacturers and oil companies are not going to sit back and become obsolete by Tesla.

[mpls]

2 hours ago, ganzoom said:

@mpls Exactly what better battery tech are you thinking of that will superceded lithium-ion. Sony bought the first commercial Lithium ion batteries to market in the early 1990's, its taken this long to reduce costs to make them viable in EV use. All the new battery tech you see in the press are still at the experimental stage most are 20 years+ from production. And why do we need new battery tech, the Panasonic cells Tesla use are already at 100kWh with another 10-15% in charge capacity to come just by changing form factor. That's a real life range of 300-400 miles already. Lithium-ion will be with us for the next 20 years, the tech is good enough already its simply a matter of reducing cost. 

But its not just Tesla working on EVs. LG have now started to build their own 'gigafactory' to supply Audi/Jag. BYD in china already sell more EVs than the rest of the world combined, they are busy upping their battery supply capacity. 

The point is battery EVs are fundamentally different from the hybrids Toyota are building now. Toyota don't even use lithium-ion packs, instead still stuck with outdated NiHm packs. If Toyota are serious about battery EVs they need to be developing them NOW, not wait till everyone else have them and the sales start to fall of a cliff. 

... The turbo hybrid you want for your next car, I will bet everything I own it will run on lithium-ion tech, and if you want one before 2018 it certainly wouldn't have a Toyota or Lexus badge on. 

 

Some samples,  http://www.pocket-lint.com/news/130380-future-batteries-coming-soon-charge-in-seconds-last-months-and-power-over-the-air

I still think Battery tech has to double in power density, or half its size , in adition to much improved charging times before mass adoption of EV in UK.

Toyota has bee playing with Lithium Ion in prius since 2008, their last generation and current generation ofPrius is avaiabke with  ug in option , hence with Lithium Ion. To say they've no idea about Lithium Ion is fallacy, they surely must know the pros and cons of Li-Ion.

Back to the idea of the Li-Ion packs. How much does a  Tesla S weigh, 2000kg +?  how about for the new model 3 ?  The simple fact is that it gets the supposed 300mile plus range due to the amount of Battery attached to the car ( and thus size and weight of car),  the GM Bolt has to design the Battery packs for it to form part of the structure, in order for it to get their claimed range. As for Tesla, a company that seems to promote speed and acceleration in their models is both irresponsbible and crazy. 

I wouldn't be so bold like Musk with his arrogance,  Does not Toyota/Lexus have the  2 litre Turbo petrol engine in the NX200t and IS200t, runs in both Oto and Atkinson cycle, what's to stop them bolting one onto a next gen hybrid system. ?

My moneys on a mainstream manufacturer to succeed over Tesla.

 

All I can say now is, Good luck with your Tesla purchase..

 

 

[ganzoom]

^^ Every one wants better batteries but don't confuse lab experiments with real life production. Lithium-Ion has taken 20 years + to go from initial commercialisation to been an affordable mass produced product. Same with OLED, the first OLED panels were shown off in 1990's and they have only just become cheap enough for mass production. All the 'breakthrough' Battery concepts are not even close to commercialisation let alone mass production. I'm pretty sure in a few years through design changes we'll be seeing 80-90kWh lithium-ion packs in cars the size of the Leaf, which at 4 miles per kWh real life efficiency will give you 250-300 miles+ use on a charge.   

It's not actually Tesla backing the Gigafactory, Panasonic is putting in huge amounts of money, so is LG via their own factory and virtually every other consumer electronics producer.

I'm just frustrated a company the size of Toyota cannot swallow their pride, stop wasting time on hydrogen fuel cell cars (any fuel that needs to be stored at 1000PSI is not something the public should given access to), and start properly investing in Battery EV development like BMW/Audi/Jaguar/Ford/GM/Mercedes, basically everyone else apart from Toyota.

[marrat]

While the current Tesla models are a lot of car, it's also a huge amount of money. I'll reserve judgement until the Model 3 is actually released, but I bet it's very difficult to produce something even slightly comparable to the current models at such a low price (35K dollars). Tesla has been great at building a brand name (I compare it to Apple), but I can assure you the build quality of a Merc E Class or the Lexus GS for example, is a good deal above Tesla. The brand name they've build can actually be their downfall when they release the Model 3, since people who never even sat in a Tesla believe everything they'll release will be full of tech and ultra luxurious. I hope they succeed in what they are trying to do, an affordable full EV in a higher segment compared to the current EVs, but it's still doubtful.
As for Toyota/Lexus working on a full EV , I think it would be stupid to assume they didn't. How can a company cramming all that tech into their cars, a company which produced the first successful hybrid, not work on EV? I bet they have something up their sleeve, but maybe they're waiting on Battery packs to be lighter and/or more powerful. I'd love something like a Nissan Leaf, but the range of an electric vehicle is still a deal breaker for a lot of people.

[DJP]

I have spoken to my Lexus dealer on many occasions and they are adamant Toyota are not going to play the EV game but are investing their energies 100% into hydrogen.

I'd be over the moon if Lexus brought out an EV but the reality is that, at least for the foreseeable future they aren't. Tesla build quality isn't as good as Lexus and the dealer network of Lexus is renowned for its excellence. Tesla have a few centres dotted around and that's it

I suspect that in a few years the other major players will have got their act together and Tesla will have some competition,. Whether that will include the over the air updates that Tesla regularly do remains to be seen, that in itself is unheard of. Lexus want an arm and a leg just to give a nav map update!

Nothing is perfect that's for sure, and acknowledged on the Tesla equivalent forum to this. However, none of the contributors regret switching from luxury ICE cars and see Tesla as the only option at the moment - and a very good one at that.

All very off topic as I knew it would be as soon as the T word was mentioned.

YMMV

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[PaulWhitt20]

I wouldn't be surprised if someone like Toyota didn't but Tesla when their finances came home to roost.

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[DJP]

1 hour ago, PaulWhitt20 said:

I wouldn't be surprised if someone like Toyota didn't but Tesla when their finances came home to roost.

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Now that would be good, a Tesla with Lexus build quality and after sales service!

[marrat]

I think Musk would rather die than sell Tesla 

[dutchie01]

Toyota not working on Electric Cars? 

 

just click on below....

 

www.toyota-global.com/innovation/environmental_technology/electric_vehicle  

[dutchie01]

www.toyota-global.com/innovation/environmental_technology/keytech 

[DJP]

www.toyota-global.com/innovation/environmental_technology/keytech 

Quite an interesting read but doesn't change the fact that Lexus will not be bringing out a BEV to compete with Tesla or indeed any over other manufacturers anytime soon, if ever.

I'd be first in the queue if they did.

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[mpls]

2 hours ago, DJP said:

Quite an interesting read but doesn't change the fact that Lexus will not be bringing out a BEV to compete with Tesla or indeed any over other manufacturers anytime soon, if ever.

I'd be first in the queue if they did.

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To be honest speaking with dealers isn't quite the definitive and clear cut truth. All dealers are franchises of some sort, and would not have access to such info straight from Toyota/Lexus,  though for access  to marketing and technical info in regards to current and very near future models, yes, I doubt even Toyota GB can comment about what Lexus HQ is planning.

What we do know is that there are these rumours

http://www.autoexpress.co.uk/toyota/aygo/97358/new-toyota-aygo-to-become-standalone-electric-car

When Toyota first released the Prius back in 1997,  i never would have thought Lexus would eventually put hybrid into its cars.. Whist I don't know the future for Lexus, I'm sure they will find their way..

[rayaans]

Agreed, some of the dealers don't even know standard equipment on models unless they look in the brochure. Usually the manager will know whats coming and when but the sales staff find out at the last minute or at the drive events.

Lets just say that an LS is coming with a fuel cell option so we'll see what happens.......

[ganzoom]

1 hour ago, rayaans said:

Lets just say that an LS is coming with a fuel cell option so we'll see what happens.......

You got to be joking, just where exactly do Lexus see customers refueling the thing?? Last time I checked even in California where Toyota has spent stupid amounts in hydrogen fuel stations there are only 20 or so fuel stations covering an area nearly twice the size of the UK. 

Hydrogen fuel cell tech is dead already and Toyota needs to move on, not waste more money/time on it. 

[RichyRich]

350Z, Boxter S, RX8 R3 are on my radar. Keeping my hybrid for daily and having some fun at the weekends

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[Slickk]

I think I'll be moving away from the Lexus brand altogether. It's been a good stint with the car, but I have an urge to go for something more sprightly. As refined as the hybrid is, it's just not for me at this stage of my life. I'm hugely tempted by a few cars at the minute.

The new Alfa Romeo Giulia Quadrifoglio - but the build quality and limited numbers may play a role in being able to obtain this.

Mercedes C63s - The front runner at the minute, almost close to buying one the other week, but managed to hold out for a little bit longer. Which was a bad idea, as I'm now tempted to purchase the slightly older 6.2 litre model.

BMW M3 - I like the look, the power, some of the toys, but not sure I could live with the noise, nor the 'stares' that are accustomed to most BMW drivers.

Any other suggestions?

[rayaans]

58 minutes ago, Slickk said:

I think I'll be moving away from the Lexus brand altogether. It's been a good stint with the car, but I have an urge to go for something more sprightly. As refined as the hybrid is, it's just not for me at this stage of my life. I'm hugely tempted by a few cars at the minute.

The new Alfa Romeo Giulia Quadrifoglio - but the build quality and limited numbers may play a role in being able to obtain this.

Mercedes C63s - The front runner at the minute, almost close to buying one the other week, but managed to hold out for a little bit longer. Which was a bad idea, as I'm now tempted to purchase the slightly older 6.2 litre model.

BMW M3 - I like the look, the power, some of the toys, but not sure I could live with the noise, nor the 'stares' that are accustomed to most BMW drivers.

Any other suggestions?

A Lexus RCF would fit into that group very well I think. Or even a GSF if you need the space looking at how the prices are coming down.

[Slickk]

22 hours ago, rayaans said:

A Lexus RCF would fit into that group very well I think. Or even a GSF if you need the space looking at how the prices are coming down.

I don't think I could own another Lexus car again. As lovely as they can be, for me, personally, the whole aura has worn off. In all honesty, I would walk past another Lexus and not give it a second glance.

The GS looks dreadful in the F guise. It's too brutish and loud. It's actually quite garish, and that's something I'm not keen on. The only Lexus car I do like, is the LC, but that'll be a while before becoming obtainable. 

[mpls]

8 minutes ago, Slickk said:

I don't think I could own another Lexus car again. As lovely as they can be, for me, personally, the whole aura has worn off. In all honesty, I would walk past another Lexus and not give it a second glance.

The GS looks dreadful in the F guise. It's too brutish and loud. It's actually quite garish, and that's something I'm not keen on. The only Lexus car I do like, is the LC, but that'll be a while before becoming obtainable. 

 

Funny, for me I see the Merc, Audi  etc in that light ( and especially the way most owners drie them).. not that i like all lexus, e.g. the CT isn't that good to look at or drive..

[noby76]

On 16/10/2016 at 9:44 AM, Eire Lexus said:

Ganzoom, to be fair we all acknowledge Tesla technology is impressive and performance is unrivalled, but this is a Lexus forum and if your so unhappy with Lexus not doing an EV option then go and buy 2 Tesla and tell them in their forum how bad Lexus are for not going EV route. Not all of us actually want an EV and have to pay 70k.

Toyota are the biggest and most profitable car maker and to think they have nothing going on behind the scenes to me would be hard to believe. I'm not saying they are production ready but with their resources they could just buy the technology. The EV market is still too small for mass market and Toyota is a mass market maker. EV vehicles will for sure be part of the future but all those traditional car manufacturers and oil companies are not going to sit back and become obsolete by Tesla.

Had this discussion with Ganzoom on a similar thread by saying EV technology is great but its not for everyone well until car manufactures force it down our throats just like the way they are now doing with downsizing turbo charging instead of NA engines . oil companies with their trillion dollar revenue will not sit back and let EV technology take over without having an influence oil generates too much tax revenue for US government to allow EV technology to take over..

some people prefer to hear and smell the sound of an internal combustion engine and exhaust rather than dead silence when driving. and at this moment in time i recon Toyota/Lexus has got things right with the Hybrid technology as its a bit of both technologies combined into one which helps keep costs down. just been on the tesla's website and a Model S 60kw which gives just over 250 miles range on the full charge will set you back over £55,000 where as an IS300h starts at £30,000 so one can save £25,000 buy opting for the IS300h over the 60kw Model S.

IS300h takes 14.5 gallons to fill the tank or 66litres so if it returns say 50 mpg in lets say town (urban) driving this equates to 725 miles to a tank full.   Petrol is currently £113.9p where i live so it will cost around £75 to fill the tank. lets say one does exactly around 725 miles a month, the £25,000 saved from not buying a model S can go towards fuelling the IS300h so £25,000 / £75 = 333 . so based on this figure if one spends £75 a month to fuel an IS300h to drive 725 miles a month, £25,000 can fuel it for 333 months.   333 months in years is  333 / 12 = 27 years

if 0-60 is not of importance to one then going for the IS300h over the cheapest model S Tesla makes more sense as based on these example figures, it will take one 27 years to break even but your 0-60 will be about 3 secs slower compared to the model S60Kw even if it costs £5 to charge model S fully i still would have paid £25,000 more than an equivalent car like IS300h minus the 0-60 performance of course. 

I think most who can afford it  are now jumping onto buy Tesla because its the new Hype new Tech on the block and like any new thing it settles in and no one is interested any more. 

[mpls]

I've been doing reearch on Nissan leaf forums to see peoples real life experiences. One thing that strikes me is lithium Battery degredation, lost of cells) and also problems with charging to 100% ( apparently is like cycling 200 times to 50%), also what problems with charging to that level brings ( charging and leaving it to sit there without use also damages cells). The recommendation is to charge to 80% and use it, then when longer journeys are needed, charge to 100%. So eve with lonegr journeys on Nissan what is range  100-130miles ?

I've not rrsearched for  tesla, but if I apply Leaf experience to Tesla, would i not be worried, ?,  are there not intrinscis limitation with Lit-Ion batteries in terms of contatnt cycling and cell degardation due to re-charging but also due to time itself.. I would not like to pay so much for  a car where a large proportion of the car is made up of such batteries. Hence my point about Li-Ion not up to it for real mass deployent of EV.

[C Mclean]

But what are the warranty terms regarding loss of Battery capacity. I would imagine that most manufacturers would repair/replace batteries if their capacity dropped below a specific number within a certain time frame.

[Slickk]

On 10/18/2016 at 11:31 AM, mpls said:

 

Funny, for me I see the Merc, Audi  etc in that light ( and especially the way most owners drie them).. not that i like all lexus, e.g. the CT isn't that good to look at or drive..

I agree, the CT isn't scintillating to drive and to look at - no offence to any CT owners. I guess I just fancy something with a whole lot more grunt. I had considered a BMW 335d xdrive but I don't think I'm ready to buy my own diesel just yet. Audi A4/A6 3.0 tdi? No chance. Mercedes C250d? Massively under-powered and loud for a car that oozes so much class. Plus, I'm only doing 18 miles a day on a round trip to work and back, so I can have a luxury of owning a bigger engine, more powerful car. If only Lexus sold the IS350 here in the UK, I would have snapped that up initially and not gone for the hybrid.

It's probably this reason that I'm looking to move away from the Lexus brand altogether.

[rayaans]

4 hours ago, Slickk said:

I agree, the CT isn't scintillating to drive and to look at - no offence to any CT owners. I guess I just fancy something with a whole lot more grunt. I had considered a BMW 335d xdrive but I don't think I'm ready to buy my own diesel just yet. Audi A4/A6 3.0 tdi? No chance. Mercedes C250d? Massively under-powered and loud for a car that oozes so much class. Plus, I'm only doing 18 miles a day on a round trip to work and back, so I can have a luxury of owning a bigger engine, more powerful car. If only Lexus sold the IS350 here in the UK, I would have snapped that up initially and not gone for the hybrid.

It's probably this reason that I'm looking to move away from the Lexus brand altogether.

Your posts sound a bit hypocritical. Yes the CT may not be to your taste but it has a function and owners tend to love it, hence the masses of owner reviews about it being so good. Its also due a refresh as it came out in 2011. 

The C250d is hardly underpowered at 6.3s to 60. You can't use that in daily driving anyway and the torque should be enough. Still not fast enough, heck just get a C300 then.

You mention 335d but dont want a diesel, get a 340i then or an M3, job done. 

You wont look twice at a Lexus RC-F but are happy to look twice at a BMW, Audi or Merc right? See what I mean about hypocritical? I question why you would get the IS300h in the first place if you're looking at cars which are much faster.

[doog442]

5 hours ago, Slickk said:

If only Lexus sold the IS350 here in the UK, I would have snapped that up initially and not gone for the hybrid.

 

Likewise. I left because BMW produce fantastic petrol engines with performance to match at a price well below RC-F money. However I came back, the IS200t ticks most boxes for me now but if the IS350 was around I would never have left. 

I always recall the mass of IS200's and the distinct rarity of the IS300 back in the day that kept prices of the latter to a premium.

I have absolutely no idea what Lexus are playing at - . There is no middle ground nowadays.