Stolen RX450 Sport

[ColinBarber]

On 12/14/2016 at 5:26 PM, noby76 said:

walk up to the vehicle touch the door handle wait a second or two before door unlocks. 

It's instant on my IS, no waiting.

Do you also want to go back to winding windows, door mirrors that you need to physically move to adjust them etc. etc.?

[NemesisUK]

Instant on my RC as well. Just grab and open in one movement..

[DanD]

Same here. Saves having to look for the keys which normally stay in my pocket or my laptop bag.

My father used to have similar comments about electric windows vs manual ones or satnav vs old fashioned maps.

[noby76]

point i was trying to make is how much of an effort does it take to press a button to unlock a car?  the problems and uncertainty keyless technology has out weighs the minut benefits it brings to the driver. manufactures didn't have to change it resulting in cars being stolen all over the place. there are some technologies which are a step forward and some which are backwards and never thought through well and keyless technology is one of them.

[NemesisUK]

I drove cars when we had to physically unlock each door, with a key, no great hardship. Then we got central locking, only had to unlock the driver's door with the key, that was nice didn't have to walk round the car car unlocking doors, or reaching across the inside to do the same. Then came remote central locking, very nice, click the fob, car unlocked by the time one had walked up to it. Now we have keyless entry, car unlocked just by pulling the door open, without needing to find the remote fob (which pocket/bag was it in?).

What's common to all? Pulling the door open. The operation has been reduced to it's basic requirement. That is until we have keyless, powered entry! 

Oh, also common to all, cars were always stolen and stolen more easily when we had keys,,,

[ColinBarber]

2 hours ago, noby76 said:

point i was trying to make is how much of an effort does it take to press a button to unlock a car?  the problems and uncertainty keyless technology has out weighs the minut benefits it brings to the driver. manufactures didn't have to change it resulting in cars being stolen all over the place. there are some technologies which are a step forward and some which are backwards and never thought through well and keyless technology is one of them.

It's an implementation issue rather than a flawed concept. Keyless entry systems are fooled because they don't measure the time delay to guarantee the key is next to the vehicle, hence they can be fooled by repeaters.

We have no idea if that is the issue here, the key could have easily been cloned when left somewhere - which is possible with any Lexus of any age.

[noby76]

16 minutes ago, ColinBarber said:

 Keyless entry systems are fooled because they don't measure the time delay to guarantee the key is next to the vehicle, hence they can be fooled by repeaters.

 

Thats my point i i can understand any car of any age can have its keys clonned and be stolen..but the keyless tech has made this process that less of a hassle for thieves. the benefit cars with normal keys have over keyless is without the key being cloned in the first place, 9 times out of 10 the car cannot be started due to the immobiliser not allowing it but in the case of keyless one does not need to have the key cloned any more just use electronic device to amplify the signal from your house and thats it. which makes it a step backwards in car security not forwards,

[DanD]

35 minutes ago, noby76 said:

Thats my point i i can understand any car of any age can have its keys clonned and be stolen..but the keyless tech has made this process that less of a hassle for thieves. the benefit cars with normal keys have over keyless is without the key being cloned in the first place, 9 times out of 10 the car cannot be started due to the immobiliser not allowing it but in the case of keyless one does not need to have the key cloned any more just use electronic device to amplify the signal from your house and thats it. which makes it a step backwards in car security not forwards,

John, I am not sure I understand your point and how keyless is worse that the traditional keys.

[noby76]

38 minutes ago, DanD said:

John, I am not sure I understand your point and how keyless is worse that the traditional keys.

 the benefit cars with normal keys have over keyless is without the key being cloned in the first place, 9 times out of 10 the car cannot be started due to the immobiliser not allowing it making it much more secure but in the case of keyless one does not need to have the key cloned any more a thief will just use electronic device to amplify your key fob signal from your house and thats it they drive away in your brand new shiny car

[GSLV6]

The key signal does contain the information needed unique to the vehicle to bypass the immobiliser.  Cars with key starts and remote locking could still have the immobilisers bypassed by similar tech, so there's nothing new in that.  The difference here is that potentially, it can be done remotely due to radio signals and the hijacking of.

Whereas there was little that an owner could do previously to have a vehicle removed off their driveway and driven off by determined thieves, with keyless, providing the owner takes some responsibility and places key in an RFI screened wallet (I bought one and it works a treat), then keyless is actually more secure than before as the crooks wont be able to bypass the immobiliser.

Hence why most residential car thefts are still committed by thieves breaking in and stealing car keys.

Two lessons:  

1) all tech is potentially flawed in security terms and that which currently isn't still ought to be considered to have the potential to be breached.  That has always been the case, back through history and will not change into the foreseeable future.  Steps therefore should be taken by the owners as well as the manufacturers to minimise chances of theft.

2)  Our attention is drawn to this as a potential issue, and a potentially good solution is offered via RFI screened wallets or bags in which to store our precious keys.  That's not exactly hard or burdensome to do, just not always convenient.  It is the price of progress and has to be weighed against the potential cost of not doing so.  ie, we know about the issue, so we, ourselves, have a responsibility. Insurance companies may in future insist that keys, when not in use, are securely stored.

Every advance in technology comes at some cost.  We just have to weigh up those costs and make our own decisions.  I, for one, will not embrace internet banking (why? because whilst bank systems may be secure, don't kid yourself that home systems are, and whilst banks ensure that fraud protection is there to protect your cash, it's still a PITA if it happens!).  I do, however,  embrace keyless entry as it is convenient and presents no greater risks than previous remote locking keys.

All sought after vehicles will be targeted with more elaborate tech than an undesirable car.  The RX is a desirable car to thieves.  That is worth all owners reminding themselves of every time they set off and every time they return home.  It will sharpen the habits of protecting your keys.

[dutchie01]

Itś not only the key cloning that enables easy theft. Just as efficient is to smash in the smallest window in the reardoor, open the front door, take your small netbook on which you have downloaded a programme that overwrites the carś internal software, hook up your laptop to the car using a cable that fits ( same entry that the dealer uses when reading out the software), connect the laptop, start the programme and after 20 seconds Voila! start and disappear. How do i know? It was a lively discussion at the BMW dealer when i was there as mine was stripped again.

The software needed is offered on the internet. If you want to clone a key you need a receiver to detect the key and also that is widely for sale on the net.

There will always be thieves, 20 years ago they used a small hammer and a screwdriver and time has now moved on. Maybe a difference  is that in the old days thieves were mostly junkies or independent "entrepreneurs" and now organised crime has stepped in..

Keep Safe!

 

[NemesisUK]

One can install OBD blockers that prevent cloning via the OBD port. One can also install a CANBUS switch anywhere in the circuit that can disable the car from starting or can slowly throttle the fuel supply, ensuring the thief is a good safe distance away when the car grinds to a halt. The CANBUS switch is enabled at every IGN off cycle and is disabled via a driver key press sequence.

All that said I think I'd rather s thief clone my key remotely, from outside my house than break in and potentially threaten my family to obtain the key...

[Glover]

Quote

 

it's a while since I read this thread but the internet article suggests that only one Lexus model the RX450h is vulnerable.  Which begs the question; if other Lexus models aren't vulnerable can't Lexus use that technology in the RX?  In the meantime I keep my keys in the fridge as apparently that works as a Faraday cage but they're a bit cold when you first put them in your pocket!  Those who have knowledge of these things might be able to confirm if that works or is it just another internet myth?

I didn't know about the double locking to activate the immobiliser.  I know that on cars with remote fobs (not keyless) some of them activate double locking an the immobiliser by double clicking on the key; does that mean I should lock my car by double clicking the fob rather than just touching the handle?  

[ColinBarber]

I'm sure the fridge will help attenuate the signal, which may be enough to stop it working, but it isn't a great Faraday cage.

I believe all Lexus keyless models have a vulnerability - unless the very latest ones have been updated.

[GSLV6]

58 minutes ago, Glover said:

it's a while since I read this thread but the internet article suggests that only one Lexus model the RX450h is vulnerable.  Which begs the question; if other Lexus models aren't vulnerable can't Lexus use that technology in the RX?  In the meantime I keep my keys in the fridge as apparently that works as a Faraday cage but they're a bit cold when you first put them in your pocket!  Those who have knowledge of these things might be able to confirm if that works or is it just another internet myth?

I didn't know about the double locking to activate the immobiliser.  I know that on cars with remote fobs (not keyless) some of them activate double locking an the immobiliser by double clicking on the key; does that mean I should lock my car by double clicking the fob rather than just touching the handle?  

it's possibly not a great idea (the fridge) for longevity of the Battery, and not as good a cage as the cheap RFI blocking wallets available on eBay or amazon for under a tenner.  If you have a house safe, that makes for a better Faraday cage than the fridge but the little wallets work really well and are far more convenient!

The issue affects all remote keyless entry systems as they all work on exactly the same principles.  The only reason that the 450H is singled out is that it fetches more money than earlier models and many are stolen to order by very organised gangs and shipped overseas very quickly.  All the current line up using keyless entry work on the same system as I understand it so all lexus models using it are susceptible including my GS3-300.

[Glover]

Thanks for the advice on the wallets..  Could have put that on my Christmas present list but might be a bit late now so it will be a present to myself!  Really getting into the Christmas references now!

[Ianp20]

My rx450 was stolen off my drive on 26/5/2017. The doors were unlocked and opened without my keys, as I have both sets. The car was literally taken within 60 seconds. After 20 days the car was recovered but stripped down to panels. See video and photo attached. Lexus must take greater responsibility for the cars security as I feel the system is not fit for purpose and invite further comments.

IMG_4838.mp4

[rayaans]

23 minutes ago, Ianp20 said:

My rx450 was stolen off my drive on 26/5/2017. The doors were unlocked and opened without my keys, as I have both sets. The car was literally taken within 60 seconds. After 20 days the car was recovered but stripped down to panels. See video and photo attached. Lexus must take greater responsibility for the cars security as I feel the system is not fit for purpose and invite further comments.

IMG_4838.mp4

Stolen to order. 

No chance you're going to stop them. The security system is fit enough for purpose - for crying out loud its Thatcham Category 1.

There is literally nothing you can do about it unless you start putting steering locks in and clamping wheels

[sylm_2000]

Sorry to hear ! Brazen theft ....

By any chance you had a set of keys next to the front door and you assume your keys were cloned by the thief?

Following advice from this forum I have now developed a habit of keeping keys in a secure wallet when at home.

[capese21]

If you lost your keys and many people do your car would be recovered to a Lexus dealership. There they would take a blank fob and programme it into your vehicle using a laptop plugged into the OBD port.

Thieves have got hold of the software and are doing the same.

BMW Jaguar Landrover etc all being stolen the same way.  There are external companies who can disable the OBD port so you have two fobs to access the vehicle.

If I had a new Range Rover I would have one of these fitted. 

The other way is they manage to record the signal from the fob and clone it then use it to gain access. A few cases of thieves poking an antenna through the letterbox to pick up the signal.

 

Sorry to hear about your RX. At least you know where it ended up and wont have to have it back.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3244460/Detectives-tracking-Lexus-stolen-London-Uganda-alongside-fleet-stolen-British-cars-worth-1million.html

Ed 

 

 

[julian1969]

Keyless is a really bad idea as it currently stands, there was an article about how entry to your car can be gained simply by walking near you with a signal booster / re-transmitter with an accomplice stood next to your car with the matching receiver. Once in a simple OBD2 device can start your car and eventually be used to generate a new key.

No amount of encryption or security will prevent this.

The best solutions are - go back to needing a physical button press to unlock the car or tie it in to the NFC on your mobile or watch, this would require an app to be started in order to unlock your car. Unfortunately this reduces the convenience some people demand.

Car manufacturers are damned if they do and damned if they don't but personally i'd prefer the option to specify 'high security' (need a physical interaction with the keyfob before it transmits) or 'ease of entry' (always on) settings. I suspect insurers will increase premiums on keyless entry cars quite soon which may force a change in thinking for manufacturers. 

[Meeja]

On 2017-6-7 at 8:05 PM, capese21 said:

If you lost your keys and many people do your car would be recovered to a Lexus dealership. There they would take a blank fob and programme it into your vehicle using a laptop plugged into the OBD port.

Thieves have got hold of the software and are doing the same.

 

The other way is they manage to record the signal from the fob and clone it then use it to gain access. A few cases of thieves poking an antenna through the letterbox to pick up the signal.

 

 

 

 

I understand the concept of programming a blank fob with a laptop plugged into the car, but in that video clip, how did they gain access so easily?

They simply walked up, wiped the windscreen and the car was then unlocked and the door opened.

Is the second guy who wanders up tp the front of the house scanning for the key? Or did they already have something that gave them the ability to unlock the car, and they just then needed to programme a fob?

Really quite worrying.

[capese21]

On 08/06/2017 at 11:53 AM, julian1969 said:

Keyless is a really bad idea as it currently stands, there was an article about how entry to your car can be gained simply by walking near you with a signal booster / re-transmitter with an accomplice stood next to your car with the matching receiver. Once in a simple OBD2 device can start your car and eventually be used to generate a new key.

Most car theft is from burglary & stealing the key or cloning a key through the OBD port. Not the vehicle having a keyless entry or not.

 

[ISJason]

 

 

 

 

Like I once said it's better to have physical deterrent as well. I have a Steering lock that's always on the steering wheel when I park so it's a visual deterrent ..so the casual thief will hopefully walk on by.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

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[Chosen One]

I've fitted a tracker to my RX400h and one of its features is that I can track the movement of the car and more importantly immobilise the engine by sending a text from my mobile.  Best money ever spent.