HELP. LS400 Service+New starter motor now engine sick

Frubbins · July 4, 2016

Re: 98 LS400. This car has always run like a dream. So quiet people walk out in front of it. Last week went to start but just got clicks. Battery & Alternator fine so booked into local garage for full service and a new starter motor. Having replaced plugs, filters etc, the garage then took about 10 hours to fit the starter motor (list time 5 hours). Whilst doing this they managed to damage a relay on the engine (not sure which) and apparently had trouble putting the bits back together. Having charged me over £700 they returned the car with the engine sounding very sick, noisy & occasionally rocking. The "check engine" and "VSC off" lights remain on. On starting, the car will now give one vroom then die, after 6 or 7 attempts it will splutter into action followed by a cloud of smoke. It is still sick and noisy. I returned the car today and was greeted by shrugs and the enclosed diagnostic readout. Can anyone suggest what they have managed to do to cause these problems and how to fix them. I get the impression the mechanic hadn't got a clue what he was doing. Having just stumped up £700+ I don't want to have to take it to a main dealer to fix. So hopefully you guys can offer some advice which hopefully I can pass on to Moron Motors. Thanks in anticipation

The-Acre · July 4, 2016

Was it like it as soon as you picked it up from the garage? If so you need to get it back there and demand that it's put right, you have the law on your side.

Frubbins · July 4, 2016

3 minutes ago, The-Acre said:

Was it like it as soon as you picked it up from the garage? If so you need to get it back there and demand that it's put right, you have the law on your side.

It was, as stated above. I picked it up 6pm last Friday. Immediately told them and returned it today, they not working weekends and the replacement relay not in until today. I need to know the likely cause of the diagnostic readout, given that they carried out a full service, replacing filters, plugs etc, and took the lower engine off to instal the starter motor. With the previous dirty filters & plugs it ran like a dream. The only fault being the death of the starter motor last week.

steve2006 · July 4, 2016

They took the lower engine off to replace the starter motor... Worryingly the starter motor is accessed from the top of the engine after removing the intake manifold.

Given the problems already caused I would not be considering going back there, from the print out it looks like they have missed some sensor connections, the MAF being one plus the CTS and both O2 sensors.

From the codes they have obviously cleared them and they have come back up (history and current)

Have they replaced the gaskets or reused the old ones.

I would be thinking along the lines of taking it to Lexus at their expense to get it repaired properly as the garage you have used obviously haven't got the necessary skills to change a plug in a lawnmower without cross threading it.

Bluesman · July 4, 2016

How did you pay? If you paid by credit card you can go too the CC company and they will refund your money, as for the problem you now have nightmare comes to mind. The problem could be one of a dozen things. I dont envy you, but I do feel for you. Good luck.

The-Acre · July 4, 2016

Like Steve, I'm wondering why they removed the "lower engine" to do the starter, it suggests that they didn't actually know where it was located. Unless you know, it's not generally where you would expect a starter to be which sounds possible in this case. Be very careful to keep records of all conversations and every scrap of information, just in case you need it, but let's hope you don't.

Verbout · July 4, 2016

You don't start stripping a car engine hoping to come across a starter motor though, do you?

You must have an idea by looking at the car.

I use a backstreet independent if I need work done on our cars that's beyond my capabilities, when I've been at the garage, even they consult the Internet for info on cars they're not familiar with.

Why is it that lessons learnt always cost lots of money?

Good luck, that a lot of engine codes.

JANE MILLS · July 5, 2016

Hi Frubbins, This sounds totally out of the blue but may I ask which mobile phone model you were using when taking this picture?

messi · July 5, 2016

I'd take the car to Lexus Dealers to sort out and get the garage to pay for the repairs, the law is on your side on this one and to be honest due to how they've given you the car back, it wouldn't really surprise me if the service on it ie changed the oil, oil filter and sparkplugs etc hadn't been done.

Malc · July 5, 2016

this looks as though it might get a little litigious maybe !

If it might, I would consider getting an independent review done, say by the RAC or AA if you're a member, or at least their advice before you do very much at all.

Malc

Verbout · July 5, 2016

People who advise "the law is on your side" maybe haven't used the law in consumer matters.

back street garages would probably ignore a county court judgment and that would mean more expense.

the throwaway remark "the law is on your side" is used far too much on the car forums.

my first course of action would be to discuss this with the garage, find out what they did, consider giving them a chance to put it right, supervise them if you have to, or get someone qualified to supervise.

that way it shouldn't cost you anything.

cruisermark · July 5, 2016

agree with gary and i think this approach has a better chance for positive results - hope it gets sorted soon and in a professional manner

Tinonline · July 5, 2016

Very sorry to hear and I'm with my friends here. However I believe from a legal point of view they have the right to remediate the issue or if you prefer first chance of repair and as per Verbout, better to work with them to fix it. You may want to claim compensation later...or not.

That damaged relay could impact and throw these codes. Also need to ensure everything has been plugged back in.

ambermarine · July 5, 2016

Without sounding smug I have always advocated Lexus dealerships to do complex jobs as they will put it right without any hassle should they get it wrong.

In this case you have fell into a right cowboy outfit who sound like they have no idea what they are doing and if you take it back will end up with more damage or worse, no engine.

The way to go is to appoint a motor engineer to assess what as been done to the engine ,take his report to the garage and point out the issues and then get a price from Lexus to put the car right .

Go back to the garage with this price and agree it as to be paid by them or you will just end up chasing scotch mist.

The-Acre · July 5, 2016

3 hours ago, Verbout said:

People who advise "the law is on your side" maybe haven't used the law in consumer matters.

back street garages would probably ignore a county court judgment and that would mean more expense.

the throwaway remark "the law is on your side" is used far too much on the car forums.

my first course of action would be to discuss this with the garage, find out what they did, consider giving them a chance to put it right, supervise them if you have to, or get someone qualified to supervise.

that way it shouldn't cost you anything.

I say it because I've used the law three times successfully, and at no cost.

Bluesman · July 5, 2016

5 hours ago, Verbout said:

People who advise "the law is on your side" maybe haven't used the law in consumer matters.

back street garages would probably ignore a county court judgment and that would mean more expense.

the throwaway remark "the law is on your side" is used far too much on the car forums.

my first course of action would be to discuss this with the garage, find out what they did, consider giving them a chance to put it right, supervise them if you have to, or get someone qualified to supervise.

that way it shouldn't cost you anything.

Use the county court to get your judgment and if successful, no reason why you shouldn't be then for £75 transfer it to the high courts and send their High Court Sheriffs in, they will get your money. Hopefully the garage will see the errors of their way and underwrite the charges from Lexus. I wish you all the luck in the world.

Bluesman · July 5, 2016

2 hours ago, ambermarine said:

Without sounding smug I have always advocated Lexus dealerships to do complex jobs as they will put it right without any hassle should they get it wrong.

In this case you have fell into a right cowboy outfit who sound like they have no idea what they are doing and if you take it back will end up with more damage or worse, no engine.

The way to go is to appoint a motor engineer to assess what as been done to the engine ,take his report to the garage and point out the issues and then get a price from Lexus to put the car right .

Go back to the garage with this price and agree it as to be paid by them or you will just end up chasing scotch mist.

The only problem I can foresee for any Motor Engineer is that alot of the damage will be hidden deep in the engine so unless he takes the engine to bits he can only say it doesn't run correctly. He can also use the statement from the garage that they had to take the engine to bits from under the car which as we all know is completely wrong.

Verbout · July 5, 2016

Getting reports from experts, including Lexus and going to court all takes time, months of preparing cases, maybe going to court.

Has the OP tried talking to the garage?

cleverdick · July 5, 2016

From the description, I'm wondering if they've slipped the timing belt. I would ask them to point out to you, on the car, exactly what parts were removed and what was done - without prompting them in any way as to the location of the starter motor. If you can record this with your phone, covertly or otherwise, so much the better. At least then you'll have some evidence of their incompetence.

If you just want it put right ASAP, then I can recommend a very good and established Toyota/Lexus independent. I've been going there for over 12 years. The downside for you is that they're in Essex. Also, you have to consider the relative value of your car. A bitter pill to swallow, I know.

Best of luck.

Rich

The-Acre · July 5, 2016

2 minutes ago, cleverdick said:

From the description, I'm wondering if they've slipped the timing belt. I would ask them to point out to you, on the car, exactly what parts were removed and what was done - without prompting them in any way as to the location of the starter motor. If you can record this with your phone, covertly or otherwise, so much the better. At least then you'll have some evidence of their incompetence.

If you just want it put right ASAP, then I can recommend a very good and established Toyota/Lexus independent. I've been going there for over 12 years. The downside for you is that they're in Essex. Also, you have to consider the relative value of your car. A bitter pill to swallow, I know.

Best of luck.

Rich

Interesting that you mention the timing belt as that was one of my thoughts but I wondered how that would be possible, until you read about the lower engine bit. We're all waiting now for the result!

Chris Skelton · July 5, 2016

Good luck. Reinforces using reliable (Lexus/toyota) garages. Folk are often recommending them on here! (Sorry-rubbing salt in wound, I know)

Frubbins · July 5, 2016

1 hour ago, Verbout said:

Getting reports from experts, including Lexus and going to court all takes time, months of preparing cases, maybe going to court.

Has the OP tried talking to the garage?

Thanks for all your well wishes, but to be honest it hasn't helped. At 6pm today they told me the car was again "fixed" although they had been unable to clear the O2 codes. Having waited for a bus for an hour I arrived at the garage. Inserted the key . It sounded like a 50's jalopy. Putting it into reverse to get it out of their yard it had trouble clearing a 1" kerb. Suddenly it leapt into the road and died. Guys from the garage EVENTUALLY came out with the diagnostic machine. It gave the same codes as originally shown. The guy told me the garage had been sold, he was working free and couldn't wait to be out of there. The new boss restarted the car sounding so sick I thought it would die. He parked it back on the lot 6 metres away. Then had the cheek to tell me it was a non-runner when it arrived. Of course it was you PRK it had a dead starter motor. The RAC had to put it on a low loader. He then told me he didn't know if it really worked before it was shipped to them. At this point I nearly smacked him, but remained calim by cursing. It has been a beautiful, wonderful vehicle ever since I got it. Subsequently (a) I've given him a 3rd chance to get someone with a brain to sort it. (b) I've phoned VISA to register a dispute and they have said they will issue documents for me to sign for Court stating I've been ripped off (He doesn't know this yet). (c) I will summon Lexus or RAC if anyone knows which dept in order to carry out a forensic analysis. As the car is still with the enemy this may be better carried out by Lexus.

Tinonline · July 5, 2016

Wow we have gone to defcon 3!

The garage has the opportunity to fix the issue. Maybe the relay will sort this.

If not then that's the time to invite alternative solutions.

"they" do need to explain in detail what they have done and how. You want to know there is no long term or other damage.

surely a slipped belt won't cause those codes?

Chasdad · July 5, 2016

1 hour ago, cleverdick said:

From the description, I'm wondering if they've slipped the timing belt. I would ask them to point out to you, on the car, exactly what parts were removed and what was done - without prompting them in any way as to the location of the starter motor. If you can record this with your phone, covertly or otherwise, so much the better. At least then you'll have some evidence of their incompetence.

If you just want it put right ASAP, then I can recommend a very good and established Toyota/Lexus independent. I've been going there for over 12 years. The downside for you is that they're in Essex. Also, you have to consider the relative value of your car. A bitter pill to swallow, I know.

Best of luck.

Rich

For future reference is the independent you use Westfield

runsgrateasanut · July 5, 2016

Its easy to comment in hindsight to a situation but when you paid your £700 I am assuming that they did not give you an invoice with a breakdown of what they did and how they arrived at the figure. Probably too late to ask now but bear it in mind as an invoice is a statement of fact as to the charges they have made for their labour,, parts and VAT if added. It also identifies the party (usually unless its a nudge nudge no VAT wink wink) and therefore makes suing more likely to be successful.

I once went to a local Garage with a Merc which used to cut out. I took a Brand new fuel pump and left it with them. A few days later I discovered they'd parked the Car in the street and closed for the weekend leaving the fuel pump dripping fuel on to the road. I had to put a bucket with sand under the car and pray nobody dropped a ciggy butt. They said they had fixed the Car and I told them they had not. When I returned It only got a hundred yards away before it died on me.

They then told me to call back in a few days and once again said it was fixed and wanted £250 or wouldn't let the Car go. I paid them and barely got it home before it died again. I regretted not insisting on an invoice and later discovered they had not replaced the fuel pump at all. Asked for it back they said they couldn't find it.

I did resolve the issue which was actually a faulty Relay but I resented paying them to do something which frankly they didn't do. The Garage changed hands a week or so later and they were gone!!