The Lexus Image

[Spacewagon52]

Yes, I thought the same. Waiting to see the full bill. Might suggest he sends it to VW head office for them to comment. My comment would be I will never be buying another one! AND we all thought Lexus was expensive!

[Roscobbc]

On 10/04/2016 at 6:02 AM, ganzoom said:

We bought a Lexus because it's essentially a Toyota but with a nicer interior, so we knew it was reliable. The Lexus replaced a Honda, and pretty much all of other past cars have been Nissans.

The 'Apple' of the car world is Tesla, and by a MASSIVE margin, Lexus isn't even close. Tesla have managed to secure 320k+ of per-order on a car 18 months away from production, with no final price, or any firm details on spec. If anything Lexus/Toyota is in very real danger of doing a Nokia.

Back in 2007 when Apple launched the iPhone, Nokia was the biggest established brand by far, they didn't see Apple as a threat and left it too late to innovate.

The rest of car industry is scrambling to produce a plug-in batted car to compete with Tesla, Lexus hasn't got a single plug-in car on its development road map, instead they seem to be obsessed with putting massive NA engines into their top end machines.

 

The tech in cars is changing very quickly, and Toyota/Lexus need to innovate, the Miria is a dead end (Even dealers in California, the land of the wealthy tree hugger cannot shift them). They need to cut their losses, senior management need to swallow their pride and start developing a battery EV competitor to Tesla. BMW/Audi/Merc/Porsche/Jag  are all now less than 2 years away from launching a full production battery EV. If Toyota/Lexus don't get involved soon they are in serious danger of becoming irrelevant.

 

 

Whilst I generally agree with these comments. From a manufacturing and marketing position it isn't always the best of things to be 'first' in anything. Tesla, yes a fine vehicle and the new type '3' has created significant interest and 'advance' orders. Or is that possibly rather silly people putting money down on something they haven't actually seen and doesn't even exist currently and won't be seen here in the UK for 3 or 4 years. Would people lay a £1K deposit that for a Ford or GM vehicle with that lead time?

The real issue for anyone considering an all electric vehicle in the next few years is availability of sufficient charging capacity from our national grid.

We have been very lucky over the last few years to have had a whole series of relatively mild winters in the UK. With existing fossil fuelled power stations originally built post WW2 and well past their 'sell by' dates the nation is currently a only a 'few steps away' from major power shortages. If the country has a really bad and extended winter we will begin to 'run out' of power.

Where does that leave the guy with the electric car? - the home chargers for the Tesla are 22 kw's (smaller size than Supercharger) and in real terms energy 'hungry' and ultimately probably heavier in terms of deferred emissions than cars with internal combustion engines. I just can't see this ending well. If electrical vehicles were to take-off in a big way I'm sure our Government would be looking at the lost taxation revenue from reduced petrol/diesel sales and look for a way to penalise anyone 'home charging' an electric vehicle by increased taxation.

Tesla owners - enjoy your car for a few years before HMG want their 'bit of the action'

Going back to Lexus (and Toyota for that matter) I think they are doing the correct thing - they have a superb and efficient hybrid drive train that is very reliable - there is a 'plug-in' version of the Prius if you want it. I suspect that many of the 'buyers' of 'plug-in' hybrids (like Mitsubishi PHEV) are company purchasers or leased and bought purely for the low BIK taxation and will never see a home charger.

To me is seems that Lexus/Toyota are 'sitting on the fence' and just watching, observing things - they can sell all their current vehicles so why go any more 'radical' than they have already?

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[ganzoom]

On 16/04/2016 at 9:47 AM, Roscobbc said:

Where does that leave the guy with the electric car? - the home chargers for the Tesla are 22 kw's (smaller size than Supercharger) and in real terms energy 'hungry' and ultimately probably heavier in terms of deferred emissions than cars with internal combustion engines. I just can't see this ending well.

 

Home charge points are rated at 7KW, which is about the same as a tumble dryer, but even at 3 miles per kWh, a 10hr charge at home (starting 10pm, finishing at 8am) will get you 300 miles of range assuming you arrived at home with 0% charge. If you read up on the amount of electricity required to refine a 1liter of petrol (excluding the costs assumed with transporting and extracting the fuel ), your quickly see EVs are by far the most efficient way to provide personal transportation.

Regardless of what individual views people have on EVs, the fact 400K people are willing to put down $1000 on a car that has no final spec/price/delivery date is as much as sign any that the 'mass market' is ready for EVs. Don't forget building an EV is totally different from building a combustion car, for a start you need to have a secure supply of Battery. Aside from Nissan, everyone (Tesla included) have to source their Battery from a different supplier.

Change is coming, and if Lexus really is about 'innovation', they better get a move on with coming out and atleast show off a concept car to compete with the Model 3!!!

http://www.forbes.com/sites/brookecrothers/2016/04/15/with-tesla-model-3-orders-nearing-400000-chevy-bolt-feels-heat-of-tesla-brand/#642bf4bc5349

[Roscobbc]

39 minutes ago, ganzoom said:

 

Home charge points are rated at 7KW, which is about the same as a tumble dryer, but even at 3 miles per kWh, a 10hr charge at home (starting 10pm, finishing at 8am) will get you 300 miles of range assuming you arrived at home with 0% charge. If you read up on the amount of electricity required to refine a 1liter of petrol (excluding the costs assumed with transporting and extracting the fuel ), your quickly see EVs are by far the most efficient way to provide personal transportation.

Regardless of what individual views people have on EVs, the fact 400K people are willing to put down $1000 on a car that has no final spec/price/delivery date is as much as sign any that the 'mass market' is ready for EVs. Don't forget building an EV is totally different from building a combustion car, for a start you need to have a secure supply of battery. Aside from Nissan, everyone (Tesla included) have to source their battery from a different supplier.

Change is coming, and if Lexus really is about 'innovation', they better get a move on with coming out and atleast show off a concept car to compete with the Model 3!!!

http://www.forbes.com/sites/brookecrothers/2016/04/15/with-tesla-model-3-orders-nearing-400000-chevy-bolt-feels-heat-of-tesla-brand/#642bf4bc5349

Our 'eggs' are of differing sizes here. Domestic tumble drier on 240v 13 amp supply can only be 3KW maximum. 7 KW item (say water heater) will require specialist installation (as would 'home' charger) - using Tesla's own figures 300 mile range would require close to a 14 hour charge on 7 KW charger. 22 KW charger would take 4.5 hours. Cost for latter would be (not allowing for off peak rates) 7 times the cost of a 3KW domestic heater to do this. Still cheaper admittedly than fossil fuel - but it isn't taxed - yet. My whole point is that HMG revenue are not going to sit by and watch a huge increase in electric vehicle purchases and associated home charging and loosing the revenue at the pumps (plus letting 'free' Supercharging continue at Tesla stations). Whilst vehicle sales are small numbers it will all be fine, nothing will change - big take-up (like when type 3 is released) and things WILL change.

I am not condoning electric vehicles - it's just that we are not given the complete picture. Calculate-in carbon emissions from manufacture of car and more importantly manufacture and re-cycle of batteries PLUS replacement Battery cost further in to the vehicle life cycle and the logic still does not compare just yet.

I thought that Musk was tying-up an exclusive deal with a major Battery manufacturer to set up a manufacturing plant for automotive batteries?

[200h]

i am sure when home charging becomes the norn you will probably have a seperate electric meter

for charging your car then taxes can be paid on the energy used to power your car.

[Roscobbc]

16 minutes ago, 200h said:

i am sure when home charging becomes the norn you will probably have a seperate electric meter

for charging your car then taxes can be paid on the energy used to power your car.

I'm sure you are correct. Having driven company vehicles for over 40 years I just 'know' that HMG will want their fair (unfair) share of any savings the individual may make in running an electric vehicle both in terms of direct taxation at the point of use (I.e at pump or at meter) - for the company user there will be the addition of BIK implications. Nothing is ever for nothing - eventually someone will pay - and that is YOU!

[ganzoom]

Back in 1908 when Henry Ford launched the Model T there was 22 million horses in US cities/streets. I'm pretty sure people had the same level concern regarding the movement away from horses to cars.

In all honestly why worry about trying to predict the future of EV taxation/charging etc, change is coming, combustion car will always be with us (much like horses still are), but for the majority EVs will become the default mode of transportation. If Lexus wants to survive as a mass volume producer they need to jump on bandwagon sooner rather than later.

http://www.americanequestrian.com/pdf/US-Equine-Demographics.pdf

Our IS300H costs us £36K, in 12 months time a 85kWh 2 year old Model S will be under £40K - and if you buy it from Tesla your get a 4 years, 50K mile warranty......2018/19 and the Model 3 will be on UK shores, £30K, 0-60 in under 6 seconds, 200miles of real life range, £5 to recharge from 0-100%. The writing is on the wall for combustion cars, some countries are already putting legislation in place.

http://metro.co.uk/2016/04/18/the-end-of-petrol-and-diesel-first-country-aims-to-ban-all-non-electric-vehicles-by-2025-5823897/

I've just became a dad over the weekend....and I honestly don't think my daughter will even know what a petrol engine is by the time she grows :).

[DJP]

I've just became a dad over the weekend....and I honestly don't think my daughter will even know what a petrol engine is by the time she grows :).

Congratulations ganzoom [emoji2] Trust mother and baby are well. Have you decided on a name? Tessie or Eloner maybe? [emoji2][emoji57]

[bluenose1940]

Many congratulations ganzoom.  Enjoy every moment as time passes so very quickly.  It is 50years and one month since I first found myself in your current situation but i still remember every detail of the day.

I really must add that in my opinion, the finest smell in all the world is that of a baby who has just had a bath.  Many will smile at that comment but I stand by it whatever.

 

[dutchie01]

well said ganzoom i totally agree. i am from the netherlands and hybrids and plug in hybrids are a common sight overhere. it is a long time ago that the Prius was alone in its kingdom. the vast majority of these cars are companycars and the market is driven by fiscal stimulation towards these electric power. already now 25% of all new audis sold have part electric propulsion.  charging infrastructure has already been rolled out on highways and now cities are getting it. 

this all happened so fast.. 2 years ago outside my office in the parking i saw 2 chargingpoles beeing installed with 2 chargingcables each. now, 2 years later there are 10 so 20 cables and all occupied. Audis and VWś ( no lexus as lexus does not have plug ins).

Tesla has a headstart but within the next 12 to 18 months all mainstream manufacturers will offer plug ins and 100% electric cars as there is money to be made there.

the future is electric. 

[Ian J. Parsley]

To play devil's advocate, I'm not sure the future is plug-in.

I think the future is energy storage, and thus vastly improved batteries in what are, effectively, hybrid cars.

The result will be in due course that "petrol stations" are not replaced by "electric stations", but rather by nothing at all.

Just a thought...

[ganzoom]

On 19 April 2016 at 6:57 PM, dutchie01 said:

Tesla has a headstart but within the next 12 to 18 months all mainstream manufacturers will offer plug ins and 100% electric cars as there is money to be made there.

 

Sadly many CEO of big established brands seems unable to grasp the concept of rapid change, or the fundamental differences in tech underlying an EV compared to a combustion car....

http://auto.ndtv.com/news/fiat-boss-skeptical-of-tesla-model-3s-success-will-create-a-rival-if-profitable-1396421

http://www.bossauto.ca/next-ford-focus-will-stick-with-100-mile-range/

http://www.bizjournals.com/atlanta/news/2016/04/12/mercedes-benz-usa-chief-the-electric-vehicles.html

Instead I suspect they are all preoccupied with trying to sort out the BS going on with diesel engines and MPG fiddles. 

http://www.theguardian.com/business/2016/apr/22/mitsubishi-scandal-us-regulator-demands-data

By the time some of these companies realise the shift to EVs is coming it'll be far too late for them to jump on board. 

Toyota/Lexus need to stop wasting money on fuel cell tech now and focus on developing plug-in EVs, Samsung have now throw-in the towel on fuel cells to focus on Battery tech.

http://m.koreatimes.co.kr/phone/news/view.jsp?req_newsidx=202485

[ganzoom]

1 hour ago, Ian J. Parsley said:

To play devil's advocate, I'm not sure the future is plug-in.

I think the future is energy storage, and thus vastly improved batteries in what are, effectively, hybrid cars.

 

Next gen batteries with x5-10 more energy density than current Lithium-Ion tech is already viable in the labs, but the transition from lab to consumer is 10-20 years. 

Sony released the first lithium ion Battery back in 1991, but its not until nearly 20 years later prices and manufacturing have become mature enough for mass production for use in cars. Ofcourse there is now more £££ going into Battery research, so transition may be quicker, but current small (5-10% increase in capacity per year) increments in lithium-ion tech will continue. Nissan already have developed a 60kWh Battery pack (a 250% increase in capacity) that is the same size as pack in the current Leaf and only a 33% increase in weight. I'm pretty sure this is the pack designed for the next-generation Leaf due out 2017. So there is plenty of scope for current Lithium-ion tech to be improved upon, before the true next gen tech becomes commercialised in 2030+ (probably aluminium graphite ). 

http://www.greencarreports.com/news/1100775_nissans-60-kwh-200-mile-battery-pack-what-we-know-so-far