LV write off!?!

GEN · March 17, 2016

This past Sunday I was parked when a rather inattentive driver scraped the rear passenger side (as per attached) photo - mostly cosmetic but a bit of a dent and broke through the paint. Reported it as required to insurer (LV) who assured me they would do all to help and agreed (as had the other driver) that it was not my fault. Took the car for an estimate. Repair cost: £2660 (VAT included)!!! LV contacted me to say that they had written off the car and would be sending me a cheque! Pointed out that I had never authorised them to write off the car, just want the old fixed. They totally refused. Told them to close the claim and send me a letter stating their position. Any thoughts/ideas/suggestions would be much appreciated. Thank you.

Tinonline · March 17, 2016

Sorry to hear now you have to fight the establishment. Sadly the other parties claim effects yours too. Tit for tat settlement. You will need some legal help. I also think if you can get a cheaper repair quote that will your most powerful argument.

Scribe · March 17, 2016

If that damage had been done to my car I would be extremely peeved but I wouldn't accept that it was a write-off. I think you'll have to get a much cheaper quote - which must be possible. I've recently had one for un-denting and respraying a front wing on my Honda and that was £150. Comparing the damage (on the basis of the photo you've posted), the cost of fixing yours would be £500 max, but not through the insurance company's approved repairer.

dougie175 · March 17, 2016

As a qualified VDA I can probably help you a bit

Most insurance companies will usually work to 60% of the value of the vehicle before they will write a vehicle off.

As far as I am aware the insurance company don't need to ask your opinion to deem a vehicle a total loss, it is purely done on numbers and figures not based at all on the severity of the damage but more to do with value of vehicle and cost of repair. Cant really think of a way of not writing the car off really they have a legal responsibility to register the vehicle to the salvage company who will categorise the vehicle

Looking at that damage you require a miracle pull on the rear qtr, a good 4 hour repair on the qtr, bumper remove and a good couple of hours to repair the bumper, a new bumper chrome trim it looks like and a new rear lamp if the lamp has been marked? Then L/r door then just requires a blend

This will be put into the Audatex estimating system which is the industry standard and uses manufacturer times for all tasks, so if you say you want to blend a door it tells you exactly how many work units are required to strip the door ready for paint and how much paint is required at what cost, it also tells you which parts break when removing and refitting and require replacement so builds a very accurate assessment.

That all being said I cannot see that value of repair, I can see well above £500 that kind of valuation on that repair just devalues the skill and work involved to do the job. Top of my head working at a labour rate of 26-26 pound an hour which is the industry average, amazingly low I know! I would top of my head without running it through Audatex say you are looking at a £1500 + VAT repair there

The only way they have got it to that price either replace the qtr which isn't required and isn't the correct repair in this scenario or they have put a much higher labour rate in but I struggle to see how as on the LV network even a top level performance related pay the highest labour rate you can achieve as a bodyshop per hour is £34, compared to dealership prices I am sure you will agree that it is very low considering the huge investment involved and skill required

Hope that helps you in some way either understand the process or help you understand why it has been written off

Malc · March 18, 2016

Really sorry to hear your dreadful news .............. is there the opportunity to accept it's a write-off and to purchase the " wreck " from the insurers for you to have an independent bodyshop undertake the repair work at minimal cost ....... and run the car as a Cat ? or whatever ?

OK, the repair won't be to world class standards but it will maybe suffice for a 18 year old car, even though it is your baby !

That's the way I would approach the problem

I think Steve 2006 on here has had some practical experience of this type of scenario

Malc

Scribe · March 18, 2016

Robb, you're the expert here so no argument with what you've said. I was basing what I would do on what Malc has suggested - accepting a less than perfect repair, or part-repair, in order to keep the car, or even running it as it is. Although a real bummer, I'd rather do that than lose the car. I suppose it's a risk that all 400 and 430 owners face, because our cars aren't worth that much, except to us.

Malc · March 18, 2016

........ an example, my indy mechanic guy has just offered me a 55k miles Suzuki whatever 06 plate for £1700 fully repaired and on the road .......... it has had front bumper replaced .............. he bought it as an insurance write-off, claimant got value £2550, insurance estimated repair cost £3500+vat !

Replacement front bumper £150 from a breakers and the headlamp issue ( £'00s ) required a new plastic clip to fix ! ( pennies ) + his minimal labour to fix + profit.

( My gfs 22y/o Mazda might need replacing this summer ..... tin mice are rampant )

Malc

mikeyv · March 18, 2016

Just to say, I cancelled a claim for a motorhome repair, damaged when parked and blame accepted by other party, as I t-cutted out most of the "damage" and part exed it before they got round to repairing it .(over 6 months waiting for trim!!)

The relevant point is that the claim stayed on my record, and I had a long argument with them when my renewal came up.

Bluesman · March 18, 2016

Its not always about numbers, a lot of LS owners run these cars because they feel and quite rightly they are doing their bit against this throw away society we now live in. We owners who keep these cars going in good condition are far greener than the Prius brigade and others of similar type so called green cars. The cost in green terms of manufacturing those green cars and also the cost of scrapping them especially the batteries which isn't a problem at present but just think if there are 200+ million cars on the roads in the world which have those Eco batteries which need disposing of, the problem will be worse than getting rid of nuclear waste.

Its about time insurance companies demonstrated their green credentials by not scrapping cars that just have light superficial damage.

Gen, if you cant get them to repair find out how much they will give you for your car and don't accept the 1st figure they give you also find out how much they will let you buy the car back for. You might find when you do the sums you could be pleasantly surprised, the only draw back with going down this road is they will register your car with the DVLA as a Cat D? Take some pictures of the damage before and after so when it does come to sell your pride and joy you have evidence that the car wasn't cut in two but it really is just superficial. Good luck with which ever route you take. Mike.

cruisermark · March 18, 2016

i thought it being a non fault accident he can approach the other persons insurance company and demand that his car be repaired at the a garage of his choice? Why should he suffer through no fault of his own?

Scribe · March 18, 2016

Well said Mike, though I'm sure greenness is the last thing that concerns insurers.

This was one of the issues that arose when the government introduced the £2000 scrappage scheme - taking roadworthy cars out of circulation and replacing them with more economical ones that had a huge carbon footprint because of their manufacturing costs. Maintaining and running thirsty old cars is much greener than buying new ones, plus we continue to give work to local/indie mechanics rather than being at the mercy of main dealers - who probably make most of their money from repairs and servicing.

Mark, I don't think it works like that. As I understand it, insurers operate on the basis of reinstatement to condition at the time of the accident or a cash settlement if repairs are uneconomic - based on the market value of the car, which we know is difficult to determine with ours. At the same time, claimants have a common law duty to minimise their claim, so even if you're not at fault you can't claim for whatever you want. This is why an insurer won't usually give the go-ahead to any repairer the claimant wants to use, because it could increase the cost of the claim. (This is said from my experience of working in the claims department of Norwich Union, but that was about 200 years ago.)

Insurers use approved repairers because, even if they're more expensive, they work to a particular standard - as Robb has explained above. And this is important with newer cars. On the other hand, it means that most 400s or 430s are likely to be written off. So the alternative is to negotiate by demonstrating that you'll accept a cheaper repair - and, if necessary, doing what Mike suggests and keeping a Cat D car. In which case, photographing before and after is a very good idea.

I'd obviously rather not have the 'stigma' of a Cat D car but I think I'd prefer this to scrapping what is otherwise a perfectly good and much-loved one. I think I'd just have to accept the situation as part of running an elderly car.

Scribe · March 18, 2016

Another reason for insurers using approved repairers is the loan car system they operate. The cost of this to the insurer is more consistent and easier to predict, and there's less admin involved because the insurer doesn't have to deal with paperwork for car hire that a claimant will submit for reimbursement. (Believe it or not, at Norwich Union we used to deduct a mileage figure, on the basis that while the damaged car was off the road being repaired it had less wear and tear on tyres etc.)

normski2 · March 18, 2016

18 hours ago, GEN said:

This past Sunday I was parked when a rather inattentive driver scraped the rear passenger side (as per attached) photo - mostly cosmetic but a bit of a dent and broke through the paint. Reported it as required to insurer (LV) who assured me they would do all to help and agreed (as had the other driver) that it was not my fault. Took the car for an estimate. Repair cost: £2660 (VAT included)!!! LV contacted me to say that they had written off the car and would be sending me a cheque! Pointed out that I had never authorised them to write off the car, just want the old fixed. They totally refused. Told them to close the claim and send me a letter stating their position. Any thoughts/ideas/suggestions would be much appreciated. Thank you.

God that must be infuriating.

A neighbour of mine has just experienced the same thing. He was sat in his car with his wife, parked, in a local Co-Op when the driver in the next bay did exactly the same. The lady got out and offered profuse apologies and accepted it was her fault, blah, blah.

My neighbour is very proud of his S reg Scorpio Cosworth and has really looked after it. When the insurance companies were notified the culprit denied doing it!! Thankfully a member of staff at The Co-Op had witnessed the event and produced the necessary. Suddenly she accepted it was really her fault.

The neighbours' car was written off and he has bought it back from the insurers and had his own repair undertaken. He has been left traumatised by the whole process and feels very let down. Most of the problem seems to be down to stupidly over the top repair estimates.

GEN · March 18, 2016

Thank you to everyone. Every bit has been helpful but I'm still struggling: especially since I had no fault at all in this isn't someone (insurance , the other party) supposed to make this right by fixing my car as it was before the accident? Clearly, with the best of repairs, the car will never be as good as before but ... to get no repair and a pittance that cannot buy me another, it's just daylight...............The only ones benefiting are the insurance companies: whatever they might pay now they will recover (with interest, no doubt). I suppose that the lesson I learn from this is to try to minimise my insurance costs by increasing the excess (if the car is worth £5, make the excess £5) - after all the money I save is almost certainly going to be more than any repairs or cash I would get from a write off. Some years ago when I reached 9 years NCB the insurers advised me they were no longer counting! Now they told me that they would wave the excess (because it wasn't my fault), I would retain my NCB (because I insured it as well) but I would probably get charged more at renewal because I was involved in an accident! Real lesson: buy the cheapest car insurance you can! I say car insurance because in other areas things are not done in this fashion. Enough! Thank you very much again for your input.

Bluesman · March 18, 2016

We have an insurance broker, Adrian Flux who are members of the LOC, would be interesting to hear what they have to say about getting your car fully repaired by the at faults insurers.

dougie175 · March 18, 2016

5 hours ago, Bluesman said:

Its not always about numbers, a lot of LS owners run these cars because they feel and quite rightly they are doing their bit against this throw away society we now live in. We owners who keep these cars going in good condition are far greener than the Prius brigade and others of similar type so called green cars. The cost in green terms of manufacturing those green cars and also the cost of scrapping them especially the batteries which isn't a problem at present but just think if there are 200+ million cars on the roads in the world which have those Eco batteries which need disposing of, the problem will be worse than getting rid of nuclear waste.

Its about time insurance companies demonstrated their green credentials by not scrapping cars that just have light superficial damage.

Gen, if you cant get them to repair find out how much they will give you for your car and don't accept the 1st figure they give you also find out how much they will let you buy the car back for. You might find when you do the sums you could be pleasantly surprised, the only draw back with going down this road is they will register your car with the DVLA as a Cat D? Take some pictures of the damage before and after so when it does come to sell your pride and joy you have evidence that the car wasn't cut in two but it really is just superficial. Good luck with which ever route you take. Mike.

I would completely agree with you, believe me it is far from a in a repairers interest to write a vehicle off, an approved repairer to LV or any insurance company is required to:

Handle the logistics from the point of a claim handler logging the claim

Collect the vehicle free or charge with a recovery truck

Supply a courtesy vehicle free or charge for the duration

Complete a full assessment on the vehicle, this should take around 3 hours to complete a full appraisal of the vehicle for a VDA 0 to put an assessment on the system it costs £25 and 3 hours labour for that man

wait for the insurance company to decide what they are doing

Assist the insurance company in any way either by further stripping

Then the vehicle is written off the repairer must:

Remove all belongings and return them to the customer again free of charge

Hold the vehicle in secure storage free or charge for 21 days from the point of writing off for the salvage company to collect

Go and get their courtesy vehicle back, leaving the customer in the vehicle for 24 hours - 4 days different companies have different rules.

After all that the bodyshop is entitled to charge the insurance company £50 for a write off free

The process above costs the company I work for around £400-600 every write off we have to process so I can honestly say its not in a garages interest to write a vehicle off. Unfortunately it really is a simple as numbers for insurance companies, they will look to reduce the costs of the claim and in this case writing the vehicle off for a cash settlement will be the most cost effective way to manage the claim for themselves.

It is a common misconception that the insurance company provide the courtesy vehicle, unfortunately this is provided by the repairer free of charge and is not chargeable to the insurance company. The only time this doesn't apply is in a third party claim where a hire car company can provide the vehicle but only if liability is 100% settled as most none fault companies are no longer will to take the risk of hire unless they are certain they will be paid for it at the end

dougie175 · March 18, 2016

1 hour ago, GEN said:

Thank you to everyone. Every bit has been helpful but I'm still struggling: especially since I had no fault at all in this isn't someone (insurance , the other party) supposed to make this right by fixing my car as it was before the accident? Clearly, with the best of repairs, the car will never be as good as before but ... to get no repair and a pittance that cannot buy me another, it's just daylight...............The only ones benefiting are the insurance companies: whatever they might pay now they will recover (with interest, no doubt). I suppose that the lesson I learn from this is to try to minimise my insurance costs by increasing the excess (if the car is worth £5, make the excess £5) - after all the money I save is almost certainly going to be more than any repairs or cash I would get from a write off. Some years ago when I reached 9 years NCB the insurers advised me they were no longer counting! Now they told me that they would wave the excess (because it wasn't my fault), I would retain my NCB (because I insured it as well) but I would probably get charged more at renewal because I was involved in an accident! Real lesson: buy the cheapest car insurance you can! I say car insurance because in other areas things are not done in this fashion. Enough! Thank you very much again for your input.

Have they offered you the option to buy the vehicle back? Most insurance companies will just refuse to allow you, I don't and I don't agree with this in some circumstances my worry is when people buy a car back and put it back on the road incorrectly, but at the same time, there is no reason your vehicle would be anymore unsafe once repaired than it was before the accident.

If you can give me some sort of indication what figure they want to purchase the vehicle back and what cash settlement they will give you I can help you to tell you if It can be done to get you back on the road in your vehicle, not by ourselves obviously but can say whether or not it is actually possible to find a garage to repair that damage for the money you will come out with.

As far as insurance companies goes we always find Allianz very good to deal with as far as they never try and cut corners on any repair

steve2006 · March 18, 2016

OK here is my story.

My Celsior was involved in an accident which was not my fault, the other party admitted liabilty at the scene to 2 police officers so no going back there.

My insurer decided that the claim would be handled by a "Claims Management Company" who duly took the car away to an "Approved Repairer"and provided me with a similar specification loan car.... a Volkswagen Polo!

Sure enough the car was "written off"

I was then contacted directly by the 3rd party insurer who initially offered me £1600.00 which was upped to £2000.00 during the phone call and I was allowed to retain the salvage for free, in addition to this they also paid more cash if I returned the "hire car" no problem for me with an insulting Polo diesel on the drive unused.

So I basically sacked the Claims Management company (Ambulance Chasers) told the hire company to collect the car and the approved repairers to return the car to me, they were reluctant but had no choice.

I took the car to a local bodyshop who repaired the car for £600.00 and I took a nice holiday in the Dominican Republic.

It was my insurance company who refused to reinsure the car unless it was cat C'd otherwise it would have not been recorded.