Lexus IS300h or BMW 3 Series Saloon?

[Dave748]

Well thanks for the advice all it's been invaluable in aiding me to make a decision but it was easy once I sat in that car.  I won't be able to buy for about a week but I'm on the hunt now for the F-Sport with the colour and spec I want.  

I have found a few but the one's I have found are way over priced, just hoping that the one comes along or I can barter down the ones that have over priced their cars by buying fast and in cash.

[rayaans]

4 hours ago, Deadloak said:

I'd like the 450h next, but got to be under the 40k to best Mr Osborne's tax.

Just buy it before April 2017 and you'll be alright i.e buy it in March 2017 LOL

1 hour ago, Dave748 said:

Well thanks for the advice all it's been invaluable in aiding me to make a decision but it was easy once I sat in that car.  I won't be able to buy for about a week but I'm on the hunt now for the F-Sport with the colour and spec I want.  

I have found a few but the one's I have found are way over priced, just hoping that the one comes along or I can barter down the ones that have over priced their cars by buying fast and in cash.

What colour and spec you looking for? I'll take a look and see if any pop up.

[Dave748]

I'm after the IS300h F-Sport in Blue with Premium Nav and Full Black Leather, low mileage (approx 17K or below) and preferably a 15 plate.  My budget is loosely around 25K depending on the car and the deal I get, I'm expecting a good deal paying cash and buying fast with no hassle.  The above are essentials and anything else is just a bonus, I'll be looking hard at all dealers and used car sales companies and jumping on the first one I see that fits my criteria.  

[Deadloak]

I don't think cash will hold any sway really. They prefer you to pay on finance, to get them extra money. Although they don't pressure you to do so. Just do not expect any discounts from a dealer, unless you are prepared to sit tight on an negotiated offer for a week or two. With the risk of someone offering more. I had cash also, and got a good price on a new one, but not a sniff at a discount on a used.

[Steve44]

Glad you like the IS300h and the FSport is a good choice. Blue isn't the commonest colour, but most have leather and nav as it usually improves the GfV if bought new on finance. 

 

Use dealer finance to get a better price and bigger discount then exercise your right to pay off the finance early, ie in the first week,  to get the best of both worlds. Dealer gets a kickback from finance company to sell it to you. Often exceeds the profit in the car, so gives them more to deal with in discount. 

Good luck. 

[rayaans]

2 hours ago, Dave748 said:

I'm after the IS300h F-Sport in Blue with Premium Nav and Full Black Leather, low mileage (approx 17K or below) and preferably a 15 plate.  My budget is loosely around 25K depending on the car and the deal I get, I'm expecting a good deal paying cash and buying fast with no hassle.  The above are essentials and anything else is just a bonus, I'll be looking hard at all dealers and used car sales companies and jumping on the first one I see that fits my criteria.  

I think you might struggle with that budget. Bear in mind that the F-Sport versions are holding their value better than the Premier's from what I can see.

Sep 2013 with 20k miles on are on for £22k and the used car allowance is usually £500-1000. Don't expect to get anything more than £1k off the used cars at dealers.

The two popping up are

http://usedcars.lexus.co.uk/used-IS/IS-300h/2.5-F-Sport/Leicester/3627529-605500072-1609628.aspx?srcmdc=se_na_re_

http://usedcars.lexus.co.uk/used-IS/IS-300h/2.5-F-Sport/Swindon/3627529-605498834-1607041.aspx?srcmdc=se_na_re_

As you can see they are both 14 or 64 plate vehicles.

Realistically speaking you'd have to set aside £30k for a 15 plate and its highly unlikely you'll find one with 17k miles on as they mostly have about 6-10k on them.

Don't forget that these things cost £37k when new so you're still getting a hefty discount off list price.

[Dave748]

8 hours ago, rayaans said:

I  think you might struggle with that budget. Bear in mind that the F-Sport versions are holding their value better than the Premier's from what I can see.

Sep 2013 with 20k miles on are on for £22k and the used car allowance is usually £500-1000. Don't expect to get anything more than £1k off the used cars at dealers.

The two popping up are

http://usedcars.lexus.co.uk/used-IS/IS-300h/2.5-F-Sport/Leicester/3627529-605500072-1609628.aspx?srcmdc=se_na_re_

http://usedcars.lexus.co.uk/used-IS/IS-300h/2.5-F-Sport/Swindon/3627529-605498834-1607041.aspx?srcmdc=se_na_re_

As you can see they are both 14 or 64 plate vehicles.

Realistically speaking you'd have to set aside £30k for a 15 plate and its highly unlikely you'll find one with 17k miles on as they mostly have about 6-10k on them.

Don't forget that these things cost £37k when new so you're still getting a hefty discount off list price.

I totally disagree with this, instead of looking at only the main Lexus dealers have a look on auto-trader and other used car sales sites. Apart from the colour which is the only bit I'm struggling with I've found loads of F-Sports that perfectly fit this criteria.  Yes these cars are 37K brand new but taking into account the 20% VAT that someone has had to pay to get the car brand new in the first place that's £7400 off a 37K car as soon as they drive it off the forecourt.  This would make the value of the car only £29600 brand new second hand, then you add the mileage and age into that mix and you end with around 24 - 27K.  Also have a look at the WhatCar depreciation tool, matching what I've seen from the used F-Sports on-line and what this tool says they almost perfectly match up. 

9 hours ago, Steve44 said:

Glad you like the IS300h and the FSport is a good choice. Blue isn't the commonest colour, but most have leather and nav as it usually improves the GfV if bought new on finance. 

 

Use dealer finance to get a better price and bigger discount then exercise your right to pay off the finance early, ie in the first week,  to get the best of both worlds. Dealer gets a kickback from finance company to sell it to you. Often exceeds the profit in the car, so gives them more to deal with in discount. 

Good luck. 

Steve,

This is exactly the kind of evil genius life hack I was hoping to get on here, You sir are a legend.

[ganzoom]

Don't forget no one in ther right mind would have paid the 'list price'. We got our car for £5k less than list price, add on deprecation for first 12 month and I wouldn't be surprised if our car is now some £10-12k below the list price.

[rayaans]

2 hours ago, Dave748 said:

I totally disagree with this, instead of looking at only the main Lexus dealers have a look on auto-trader and other used car sales sites. Apart from the colour which is the only bit I'm struggling with I've found loads of F-Sports that perfectly fit this criteria.  Yes these cars are 37K brand new but taking into account the 20% VAT that someone has had to pay to get the car brand new in the first place that's £7400 off a 37K car as soon as they drive it off the forecourt.  This would make the value of the car only £29600 brand new second hand, then you add the mileage and age into that mix and you end with around 24 - 27K.  Also have a look at the WhatCar depreciation tool, matching what I've seen from the used F-Sports on-line and what this tool says they almost perfectly match up. 

Steve,

This is exactly the kind of evil genius life hack I was hoping to get on here, You sir are a legend.

The VAT doesn't change. You still have to pay VAT on used cars - its not something you can get out of. The dealers have to pay this VAT to the tax man therefore they charge it to you. You can ask any dealer and they will tell you that VAT is something which customers cannot get out of.

The Whatcar depreciation tool is completely inaccurate and only a fool would use this. The values I can see on whatcar depreciation tool are trade prices i.e what you will get if you trade the car in and not a reflection of "buying price". It also doesn't take into account any options. No one in their right mind would buy an IS F-Sport with no options on it. The majority have leather seats and premium nav which are more desirable and therefore may hold its value better.

There's not many 15 plate IS F-Sports on autotrader which are being sold by non-franchise dealers and usually the only reason its not at Lexus is because its condition is either poor or its not got FLSH which Lexus requires to be able to sell it.

In other words a Lexus IS300h F-Sport with no options may lose £5k in its first year, that doesn't mean an IS300h F-Sport with premium Nav and leather seats is going to lose £5k, it may lose more or less depending on desirability.

These are the figures I have got from the various "accurate" valuation sites on the basis of March 2015 registration IS300h F-Sport PremiumNav/Leather seats with 10k miles. Bear in mind some only do 64 plate cars whilst others on give values for private sales.

1) CAP - £25600-£26700 *** PRIVATE sale price depending on condition***. Expect £2-3k more at a dealer - so a car in excellent condition = £28700-£29700 and of course this will only go up with less miles on the clock.

2) Parkers are saying £27,775 on a 15 plate with 10k miles. Again this would vary depending on mileage and colour combo

3) Whatcar are saying £27516 for a franchised dealer for 11k miles, again subject to go up if lower mileage or down if higher mileage.

4) Autotrader - £26820 to £29640 for a dealer. Id presume franchised dealer will be on the higher end close to £29640.

 

Its also worth remembering that although the values set by independent companies are things that all buyers look up, they don't necessarily apply. The reason for this is because the majority of Lexus vehicles under 3 years old are at franchised dealers who can almost control the depreciation if they wish to do so.

Gang, you have to remember that depreciation is based solely upon list price. Therefore although the car may depreciate £5k in the first year, if you have already got a £5k discount it'll be a net loss of £0 for the seller so no depreciation for him. However, having said that, to a buyer it will show up as £5k off list and therefore £5k depreciation. Its all a matter of perspective......

[Steve44]

2 hours ago, Dave748 said:

 

Steve,

This is exactly the kind of evil genius life hack I was hoping to get on here, You sir are a legend.

I've not done this myself, but have read and heard of others who have.  Just be clear about the T&C's, interest charges/penalties etc paying it off early might incur you, but people have saved overall.

Personally, I don't think I would buy a nearly new Lexus outside of a main dealer network, to ensure it had warranty and FSH.  The car is so complex and potentially expensive to repair I would want complete peace of mind with my £25k+ outlay.

As ganzoom says, list price is a no no, with minimal effort, you can get a new F-Sport in Blue with Prem Nav & Leather for £32k, no haggling - check www.broadspeed.com, or www.coast2coast.co.uk.  This should be your starting point for any negotiation at a dealer.

[Dave748]

Raynnas you've probably got a point about most of what you have said but in the end my budget is my budget and my requirements are my requirements, as I have only just stared looking I'll stick to those for now.  If later down the line I still can't find what I'm looking for then I may consider adjusting either one or both to broaden my options.  If after that I've got to my limit of adjusting my budget and requirements then I may have to make an even more drastic decision.  Maybe get a cheep run around to last me for a while till I can save more money to adjust my budget/requirements further or maybe even look at a different car entirely.  If dealers can't meet my requirements then my money stays in the bank and if they can, great they've got a deal and really that's the bottom line regardless of everything else.   

[Mikeyb999]

9 hours ago, rayaans said:

The VAT doesn't change. You still have to pay VAT on used cars - its not something you can get out of. The dealers have to pay this VAT to the tax man therefore they charge it to you. You can ask any dealer and they will tell you that VAT is something which customers cannot get out of.

 

The VAT situation does change.  On a new car its a flat 20%, but for used cars most dealers use the Margin scheme where they just pay the VAT on the difference between what they buy the car at and the sale price, so if the profit on a 25K car is £3K then the VAT is £600, but if the car was sold new at £25K the VAT would have been over £4K

[rayaans]

28 minutes ago, Mikeyb999 said:

The VAT situation does change.  On a new car its a flat 20%, but for used cars most dealers use the Margin scheme where they just pay the VAT on the difference between what they buy the car at and the sale price, so if the profit on a 25K car is £3K then the VAT is £600, but if the car was sold new at £25K the VAT would have been over £4K

That's only on used cars which have been bought brand new by a customer though. Its different for ex-demo vehicles as the dealers claim VAT back. Therefore when selling they have to charge the full 20% VAT as the car is then tagged as VAT qualifying.

 

[Dave748]

Well I'm not particularly looking for an ex-demo, as long as it has Lexus FSH and I can get a topped up warranty I don't care where it's come from, the dealers in this case are just going to have to take a loss to compete or risk keeping the car for longer than they want it as it only continues to devalue further, that's not my problem. 

I just want a car at a deal that I'm happy with and I'll do what ever it takes to make that happen or do as my last post said.  At the end of the day to me it is only a car and I'm not going to break myself paying over the top for a car I don't think is worth the money no matter how good it looks or how nice it is.  Yes the Lexus is nice and I do really like it but there are plenty of other cars about and if I can't deal on the Lexus I want for a price I deem to be reasonable then I'll  just have to move on. 

I guess this is the one down side to the exclusivity of the Lexus, not many used to choose from.

[rayaans]

1 hour ago, Dave748 said:

Well I'm not particularly looking for an ex-demo, as long as it has Lexus FSH and I can get a topped up warranty I don't care where it's come from, the dealers in this case are just going to have to take a loss to compete or risk keeping the car for longer than they want it as it only continues to devalue further, that's not my problem. 

I just want a car at a deal that I'm happy with and I'll do what ever it takes to make that happen or do as my last post said.  At the end of the day to me it is only a car and I'm not going to break myself paying over the top for a car I don't think is worth the money no matter how good it looks or how nice it is.  Yes the Lexus is nice and I do really like it but there are plenty of other cars about and if I can't deal on the Lexus I want for a price I deem to be reasonable then I'll  just have to move on. 

I guess this is the one down side to the exclusivity of the Lexus, not many used to choose from.

You could always go for a slightly older one. It's not going to make any difference, in fact the 2015s actually have less power than the 2013/14 ones lol

They detuned the engine slightly to push emissions down to 107g/km on F Sport models and increase efficency.

The dealers dont play much ball though, expect £1k at most on the used cars so look for cars £1k higher than the budget you have in mind. 

[DanD]

I think it may be worth waiting a few weeks: the plate change on March 1st may bring new cars on the second hand market, resulting in a (small?) drop in prices.

[Dave748]

Good idea however, unnecessary, all ye of little faith!!! I've landed my self a corker of a deal so good I can hardly believe it myself.

[200h]

well done for getting a great deal ,can you say what the deal you managed to get is.

[Dave748]

Well I didn't want to say as I didn't want to jinx it until it was a done deal but I've paid the deposit to secure it now so it's going no where.  I managed to get the exact car I want:

Blue, IS300H F-Sport, Premium Nav and Full Leather

65 plate, 7K miles on the clock form a Lexus dealer so Warranty, Assured etc. all in for £27,147

Personally I think this is a good deal and worth the money. 

[Steve44]

Well played, welcome to the club. Is it the one from Lexus Hatfield or Hedge End on the Lexus approved used cars site.... 

[Dave748]

Neither of those two, it's Lexus in Cambridge.

[rayaans]

49 minutes ago, Dave748 said:

Well I didn't want to say as I didn't want to jinx it until it was a done deal but I've paid the deposit to secure it now so it's going no where.  I managed to get the exact car I want:

Blue, IS300H F-Sport, Premium Nav and Full Leather

65 plate, 7K miles on the clock form a Lexus dealer so Warranty, Assured etc. all in for £27,147

Personally I think this is a good deal and worth the money. 

Result!! Any chance of letting us know how much of a discount you got off the "listed" price?. Got to say £27147 is a right awkward number lol

[Dave748]

Well it's actually even more awkward than I said, the real price is £27147.89 I didn't fell the need to add the pence.  The listed price was £29995, there is a reason why it's so awkward a price though and not set by me set by the dealer.  Basically they wanted rid of it, been a demo they wanted the space for the new facelift model to come in so I threw them my top offer and said that's it take it or leave it so instead of been stuck with it they gave me it at the exact cost price as it was a smig over my top offer but for the difference and the price I couldn't really turn it down.

Very happy. 

[rayaans]

3 minutes ago, Dave748 said:

Well it's actually even more awkward than I said, the real price is £27147.89 I didn't fell the need to add the pence.  The listed price was £29995, there is a reason why it's so awkward a price though and not set by me set by the dealer.  Basically they wanted rid of it, been a demo they wanted the space for the new facelift model to come in so I threw them my top offer and said that's it take it or leave it so instead of been stuck with it they gave me it at the exact cost price as it was a smig over my top offer but for the difference and the price I couldn't really turn it down.

Very happy. 

Wow they must have wanted to get rid of it fast! Hmm still don't believe the dealers on the facelift though. No word of it from my sources at Lexus so it might be about a year away atleast, especially since they're working on the LC500, new LS and new CT.

[Dave748]

Well, I'm just happy I held out and got exactly what I wanted, already looking at what calliper paint will go best with the Blue. I'm thinking orange as yellow is a bit too bright and I had red callipers on an old car.