"it Depends On What The Definition Of 'is' Is"

200h · September 22, 2015

How is that different to petrol?

Appreciate that currently there aren't so many electric points available, but in time that will increase, electricity is easier to distribute than petrol etc, electric cars can be charged anywhere there is a power supply, admittedly slowly at the moment, but in time more and more fast chargers will appear, as compared to petrol, the charging facilities are far cheaper to install, also the need for them will probably diminish as cars become capable of longer ranges.

Id imagine there will never be a day of "enough" chargers. They'll always be in use, especially if electric cars keep increasing.

and especially when you will find someone who doesn't need the charger parking in one of the bays

200h · September 22, 2015

At the moment i feel hybrid is the only way to go ,batteries will only be here and of any use if i can

travel from the wirral to cornwall without having to recharge,when that day arrives then the batteries

will rule, the other method for increasing the range would be to have inductive charging in the road

surface,you would pay / mile as the receiver pad would have an RF tag so you can pay for what you use.

Deadloak · September 22, 2015

One article on how it would work. Although not for us over here:

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/motoring/green-motoring/2740900/Hydrogen-island.html

David.

rayaans · September 22, 2015

At the moment i feel hybrid is the only way to go ,batteries will only be here and of any use if i can

travel from the wirral to cornwall without having to recharge,when that day arrives then the batteries

will rule, the other method for increasing the range would be to have inductive charging in the road

surface,you would pay / mile as the receiver pad would have an RF tag so you can pay for what you use.

Thats probably the best idea but obviously very very expensive.

The infrastructure for electric up north is genuinely crap. I can understand that you can probably have an EV down south and in large cities but then Leeds is a large city and only has 2 chargers in it! :O

ganzoom · September 22, 2015

What happens if the charger is offline? Ive heard of that a lot recently.

Toyota is obsessed with Hydrogen due to range - 300 miles from one of the first hydrogen vehicles is fairly promising. Itll be 400, 500 maybe 1000 by the time EV gets anywhere near that.

Your missing the point - MOST EV drivers will charge at home. I cannot believe you haven't got access to off road parking at home.

Regarding rapid chargers I came across 7 this weekend, all 7 were working.

The range of hydrogen cars are limited by the hydrogen stored. The tanks are already made from Kevlar and at 10,000PSI. Short of a breakthrough in ultralight straight materials can their range is limited.

Remember the Miria is 5 meters long, and 1800kg, virtually the same size of a Model S, but only room to seat 2 in the back, and limited space. Where as the Model S can carry 5+2 and all their luggage.

As DJP has said, your struggle to find any actual EV owners saying they regret going to EV....Regardless of if they changed to a cheap as chips Zoe or a full fat £100k P90D-L. At the end of the day it'll come down to the consumer. So time will tell ;)

ganzoom · September 22, 2015

I can understand that you can probably have an EV down south and in large cities but then Leeds is a large city and only has 2 chargers in it! :O

Again you need to change your thinking about having to fuel up the car at a 'fuel station' The beauty of EVs is you can charge ANYWHERE with a 3 pin plug...How far away are you from a 3 pin plug in any major city??

I even been able to charge up on a hill in the middle of the Peak District :)

capese21 · September 22, 2015

I even been able to charge up on a hill in the middle of the Peak District :)

Who`s electricity was it?

Ed

rayaans · September 22, 2015

And how long does it take using 3 pin? Tesla charges at a stonking 4mph!!

200h · September 22, 2015

I even been able to charge up on a hill in the middle of the Peak District :)

Who`s electricity was it?

Ed

do you think he's hooked up to the grey box above his car on the pole ?? lol

200h · September 22, 2015

And how long does it take using 3 pin? Tesla charges at a stonking 4mph!!

i think the stranglers lyrics can answer that "all day and all of the night"

Deadloak · September 22, 2015

or "5 minutes" on a fast charger.

David.

Spacewagon52 · September 22, 2015

Quite a debate gentlemen! I find this fascinating. Range seems to be the big issue along with unexpected journeys that are longer than the car's range. The hybrid system would seem to be the answer in the medium term. I am not too familiar with the merits of the various offerings but I have looked into the Mitsubishi Outlander PHEV. 32 miles is not really enough range on purely EV but a greater range with the option of a petrol motor to supplement the Battery on extended journeys would be the answer.

Someone more knowledgeable on this forum will be able to give a better example than the Outlander for a good EV range that can be supplemented by a petrol motor when needed.

I must be honest, the arguments for the IS 300h have won me over.

capese21 · September 22, 2015

So just stop & ask to plug into any random persons household supply? For free?? I will stick to my Hybrid thanks all the same!!

ganzoom · September 23, 2015

What's is your car doing most of the day?? If destination charging was widely available - and there is no reason why it cannot be. What's the problem with having your car on charge when your off doing X/Y/Z??

I can only speak for my experiences. Faced with having do a day to day trip. I can either take our IS300H - which costs at minimal 10p/mile in fuel. Or I can take the Leaf which at Maxium costs 2/p mile....I don't have a money tree, so hence for the last 5 days the IS300H hasn't moved. Infact we haven't even had fill it up since July. The 340 mile trip at the weekend cost us £2 in the Leaf - At the current rate of use even my wife is starting to wonder if we should just bite the bullet, and take the £10K deprecation hit we'll loss by selling a 6 months old car, and move to a complete BEV house hold and get a Tesla instead :)

That would be quite a outcome, considering 6 months ago one of the potential cars we considered instead of the IS300H was V6 supercharged petrol XF, and I was getting excited at the prospect of having 12 cylinders, 6L of displacement, two turbos, a supercharger, and 600bhp+ on the drive way.....Now I cannot wait for the day when we have 0 cylinders parked on the driveway. I'm not obsessed with EVs because I'm some kind of tree hugging vegetarian - quite the opposite. But I genuinely do look back and wonder why I was so skeptical about EVs for so long, and all I'm trying to do is show others who might have been like me 6 months ago there is an alternative way to get from A to B and it's already here and now :)

ganzoom · September 23, 2015

For those of you who just want to charge your EV at a fuel station, the website below shows you all the UK charge points.

Someone mentioned Leeds....It looks like Tesla already have a SC point on the M42, so you actually have free recharging for LIFE on your door step!! Lucky gits ;)

https://www.zap-map.com

Deadloak · September 23, 2015

I possibly could have gone for a Tesla, given the arguments here. But to be honnest it doesn't float my boat visually. As it's interior was too i-pady, and the exterior too retro Jag.

Although now the 5k home charging station is being offset by the future hike in tax for a high priced car. There are 2 Tesla charging stations within walking distance which is very lucky. But the Tesla was also too large for me and the other smaller EV's just plain dull. Waiting for the smaller Tesla was not an option, as we needed to change car sooner, as I do not change cars very often, but the next car will certainly be an EV, but not yet :winky:

David

DJP · September 23, 2015

Sort of slightly back on topic, IMO the 300h is better than the previous IS by some margin, and the hybrid technology puts it ahead of the petrol version. Going full EV is the next logical step, with certain provisos. The ability to charge at home being the obvious one. If you can't do that then it's not a practical option IMO. If you can, and I suspect the majority that follow this forum can, the next proviso is how far do you regularly drive? For me, 20 miles a day min, occasionally 75, sometimes 100, not often above that. I have looked back at my last 12 months driving, and on the odd time I've had a 100-200 mile trip there are Tesla supercharges (free for life) or motorway service stations facilities, should I need them.

Subject to a little more thought about charging, and I'm sure it becomes second nature after a while, going full EV makes complete sense. A home charger delivering the same output as my hob gives 140 miles range in 7 hours. That's me sorted for 99.9%!of my driving. Oh, and for peanuts cost wise.

Which one then becomes the usual debate over style, size, price etc, but the means of propulsion has been settled.

As for hydrogen, I know nothing about that apart from the fact is not a option and won't be for the foreseeable future. When it is, I'll consider it on its merits.

I love my IS and was heading for an NX just for a change of style sometime over the next 6-9 months. Now I'm 90% sure it'll be a nearly new Tesla. The10% is SWMBO who can't understand why I wouldn't want to keep the IS for a long time. Her objection to the Tesla (apart from cost) will be the acceleration as she already thinks I'm too fast a driver.

200h · September 23, 2015

What's is your car doing most of the day?? If destination charging was widely available - and there is no reason why it cannot be. What's the problem with having your car on charge when your off doing X/Y/Z??

ganzoom you are quite right with the above statement ,but we as a country are not there yet and it will be a long time before the charging points are common

place and in every highstreet & carpark,and only then will these cars become a viable option.

again it really depends on your usage if your retired and only do round town / short stop start journeys to the shops then you probably cannot beat the ev car

but if you want freedom where distance isnt an issue and dont want to be tethered to a plug socket then its still hybrid in my eyes.

ganzoom · September 23, 2015

^^ LoL I can reassure you I'm far from been retired and nor my parent in laws, and nor I'm I tethered to a plug socket :)

As @DJP has said, if you actually look at how you use your car, and how much you drive I suspect most people don't more than 50-60 miles a day. My parent in-laws initially wanted a range extender i3 because of 'range anxiety' and its one of the reasons I took my Leaf from Leicester do Cardiff to re-assure them. We used the Leaf over the weekend for all their normal car usage, and at the end of Sunday they hadn't even used more than 50% of the charge. Than after looking at what millage their Mini was doing - 10 miles commute to work, it was clear Zoe had more than enough range to replace the mini, and even cover the odd trip to Bristol and back.

If your doing 200 miles a day non-stop than clearly you need to think much more carefully, but actually if your doing 200 miles a day, the cost saving your make on fuel by switching from ICE to EV is huge (Close to £20 a day)...Especially if your close to free Tesla rapid charger.

Ultimately as @DJP points out, EVs offer the holy grail of motoring.....performance AND economy. The reason I first started looking at EVs was because after doing the numbers I realised I could never justify buying/running something like a F10 M5, at 15 mpg, £300+ a year servicing, Top wack for road tax, needing a £5K+ emergency repair fund, on top of a £50K+ initial purchase price. An EV like a Model S, offers the same performance, near enough the same range per 'tank', same day to day usability, and same initial cost....BUT without the hideous on going running costs. I cannot be the only one attracted to these numbers, because the vast majority of Model S been sold are the 'P' performance versions.

When we were looking at the i3 this weekend, the dealers were moving a M5 + M6 around, all I could think to my self when I looked at them was 'what is the point'. For the same money as a M5/M6 I could go and buy a P85D, but after the first 'free' tank of fuel runs out, instead of paying £80-90 to refuel, I can recharge it for 10% the cost.

The IS300H is good, and it opened my eyes to the benefit of EV motoring - Without getting the IS300H I would still be the same opinion of EVs as many other people, but Toyota/Lexus need to get with the times and develop their cars to compete with the competition. I have no hesitation in swapping our IS300H for a Model S, charging/range aren't the things stopping me....It's the fact we just spent £35K on a IS300H - selling up now would mean £10K+ 'lost' in deprecation in just 6 months and 3000 miles, and my wife reminding me theres nothing wrong with the Leaf and just to wait and sit on my hands for another 12 months till I can get out of the PCP contract :)

noby76 · September 23, 2015

Will full electric cars be the future of motoring one day? The answer is definitely but as things stands at the moment, the world is not there “yet” . Toyota & Honda where one of the first car manufacturing companies to start fiddling with Battery powered cars and I bet full electric technology crossed their engineer’s minds during brain storming but they decided not to go ahead with it. This might be due to the fact they realised the world is not there yet in terms of handling and accommodating charge/powering stations if they should mass produce 100% EV vehicles hence they went they hybrid route I guess.

100% EV cars would not suite everyone’s life style. We still have majority of our population living in apartments with shared parking spaces whilst others also live in properties with side road parking’s so home charging would not suit ‘all’ if anything it would be an inconvenience to most. If one finds themselves in a situation where they over estimated their batteries mile range and only had say 15 mile range left whilst the next available charge station is say 25miles always which is a further 10 miles, one won’t have any option than to have the car towed to the charge station once the Battery drains out. Whilst the driver of a hybrid could hop into a taxi to the nearest petrol station fill up a gallon in those green cans refuel and away they go. So again owning a full EV car would require that extra planning if and when doing longer journeys. Whilst one could fuel a hybrid in a quick as 2-3 mins an EV takes longer which eats into travel time if one is in a rush. These are just a few examples which proves we are not there ‘yet’ when it comes to mass production of full EV cars.

Like any product there is a market for full EV cars but it wont fit most car buyers lifestyle but there certainly is a market for it I believe it wont take over internal combustion any time soon as internal combustion engines have been around for hundreds of years. So long as there is demand for crude oil by the world’s richer countries, internal combustion will be around. Governments and oil companies make so much money from crude oil they won’t be willing to part with it anytime soon. So EV cars would definitely be around but surely won’t take over the motoring industry fully anytime soon.

Although I haven’t had the privilege to drive a full EV car I have driven the IS300h as a loan car and although I thought the silence experience was cool when the car was in EV mode, I was happy to hear the sound of the internal combustion GS V8 after I picked it up. A performance EV like the Tesla S is fast but I recon true enthusiasts will get bored of it after a while and trade it in for a V6/V8/V10 just for the sound experience. :)

ganzoom · September 23, 2015

^^ I have to disagree on a few points.

1:

as internal combustion engines have been around for hundreds of years.

The Ford model C, the first mass production petrol car by Henry Ford in 1905 - Just over 100 years ago.

It cost $850 (Roughly $22,000 dollars now), had to be driven on roads (where as horses could be ridden anywhere you like), and needed something like petrol/kerosine etc. It had a theoretical top speed of 38mph, and I cannot find any information about range...

Most people at the time had one of theses:

It only cost $70, you look far more glamourise riding one than sitting in a ‘car’, and it does over 30mph on most surfaces (So your not limited by just having to use roads). You don’t have to put this thing called ‘petrol’ into one, and you can ride for a whole day if wanted to without worrying about fuel...After-all its much easier to find water for a horse than petrol for a car back than.

Frankly you have to be crazy to want a ‘car’ back in 1905, when the horse was cheaper, faster, easier to live with. By 1905 enough crazy people bought cars of all kinds (electric, steam, petrol), infact over 75,000, but the vast majority of people stuck to the tried and trusted horse, there was 22 Million horses in the US in 1905.

However technology and infrastructure for cars improved, and in 1908 Ford introduced the model T, prices eventually fell to $250 by 1925 - So about 90 years ago - Which really isn't that long, so the people who are 100 now grew up with no concept of the motor car :). Range of the model T was 200 miles. It wasn't great, you had to hand crank the thing to start it, but the cheap price and decent enough range meant Ford sold 15 million of them….the rest, as they say is ‘History’.

So actually compared to the evolution and adoption of the petrol car over the horse, modern day electric cars are much more 'main-stream', and easier to live with..

Apparently there was the only public petrol station around in 1905 in the US....Really, why did anyone buy one over a horse??...Though I think if I was around back than, I probably would have bought a Model C, so I'm clearly crazy

Compare that to EV charging points available already in the US…

I find it interesting the First mass produced and successful ICE car, the model T had a range of 200 miles, and reducing cost of entry was a major achievement to rapid uptake….It seems like the current EV developers have done their home work, since nearly all are targeting 200 miles range, for under $30,000, almost the exact same range/price ratio Henry Ford achieved with the original Model T.

2:

A performance EV like the Tesla S is fast but I recon true enthusiasts will get bored of it after a while and trade it in for a V6/V8/V10 just for the sound experience.

Speaking as some one who's owned a Honda Integra Type R, Nissan 350Z, BMW 335i, and been to 4 F1 races in 3 different countries in the last 3 years I can tell you I'm more excited about EVs than any V6/V8/V10.

It's not just me either, this is written by the chap who actually started the 'Pistonheads' website.

“One sedate lap of the paddock at Castle Combe had delivered a thunderbolt. Mind blown, views altered. The gulf between new and old is bigger than I appreciated. A chasm will open up shortly between the silent raiders and the noisy old boys".

"Our current rides are automotive steam trains. Whilst beautiful, clever and at the top of their game - it's now the wrong game."

I give you one guess which car he had just driven ;)

http://www.blatters....d4369a64a8b464b

What i find odd is why some people really find it hard to see beyond what is in front of them right and now. The world is changing, and quicker than most realise. If my children grown up still having to put petrol into a car I would be disappointed, I for one I'm glad we are living on the edge of transport revolution.

For me I rather live in a world not dependent on oil and have global politics skewed by a few countries lucky enough to have oil under the ground - Bring on change, I cannot wait :)

http://www.marke****ch.com/story/the-beginning-of-the-end-for-the-oil-age-2015-06-10

noby76 · September 23, 2015

I think we can agree in early 1900's owning an automobile was more of a luxury asset for Aristocrats rather than a necessity for the average Joe in this fast paced day and age we live. the average Joe in 1900's could not afford an automobiles as there was nothing like hire purchase it was a cash and carry system so it would have taken the average Joe a long time to save $22,000 for one. if cash and carry system was still in place today you will notice only afew cars will be on the roads as the aveareg Joe wouldn't have £40000 disposable income for say a 335i BMW or £50,000 for Tesla S. heck even a £10,000 brand new car would be difficult to buy outright without a form of loan.

don't get me wrong I am not knocking EV technology I am only expanding on the fact that although its the way forward, it wont fit into most peoples lifestyle. not everyone has the patience to sit at a charge point for 30 minutes gazing at the skies to charge their car nor have the accommodation in place for a home charge point due to where they live. but I suppose once charge points are capable of charging in less than say 5 mins at the rate equal to pumping fuel it will be more convenient. Imaging pulling up at a charge station with 2 cars waiting in the queue with each one charging a minimum of 30 mins that means you will be at the place for an average of 1 hr 30 mins before you can carry on with your journey where as fuelling is in and out in less than 5-10 mins with a queue. can you see what I meant by we are not there yet in terms of infracsture and rapid charging speed. I think these reasons might be why Toyota and Honda did not go full EV.

I would also want to live in a world not dependant on oil but this is not the reality oil is like a drug most countries are too dependant on it they wouldn't want to let go of it easily. more over ask your self why exotic car manufactures like Ferrari, Lambo, Rolls Royce, Maserati etc who have the budgets to invest in 100% EV technology are not doing? this is because they know they will loose business once they do this. their customers base have influence, are too big and too rich to care about the environment and would rather prefer the sound and experience of a V8 V12 ICE instead of a 1000hp 100% EV car. I guess they base it on an EV performance car will deliver the performance but not the experience.

in 2015 cars released with internal combustion engines still dwarf cars with 100% EV even mainstream car manufactures except Tesla know we are still not there yet for massly produced EV vehicles to take over.

wh05apk · September 23, 2015

The issues with EV's are down to the range, and refuelling, if I could get an EV with a realistic 200 mile range at a sensible price it would suit me, I do about 20,000 miles per year, some days just about 6 miles to the office, typically about 100-120 on "normal" longer days, but very occasionally longer - tomorrow being exceptional , probably close to 400 miles, but on a long day like that, I would happily stop at services for a 30 minute break to charge, especially as it would have saved me about £30+ on fuel.

As range increases, there will be less demand on charging on the go, as for most people they would only need to charge up weekly, normally at home, or I am sure in time on street chargers (metered?) will become common.

Electricity is cheap to distribute in comparison to other fuels, and as most charging would be done at night, could use "surplus" capacity.

rayaans · September 23, 2015

What's is your car doing most of the day?? If destination charging was widely available - and there is no reason why it cannot be. What's the problem with having your car on charge when your off doing X/Y/Z??

I can only speak for my experiences. Faced with having do a day to day trip. I can either take our IS300H - which costs at minimal 10p/mile in fuel. Or I can take the Leaf which at Maxium costs 2/p mile....I don't have a money tree, so hence for the last 5 days the IS300H hasn't moved. Infact we haven't even had fill it up since July. The 340 mile trip at the weekend cost us £2 in the Leaf - At the current rate of use even my wife is starting to wonder if we should just bite the bullet, and take the £10K deprecation hit we'll loss by selling a 6 months old car, and move to a complete BEV house hold and get a Tesla instead :)

That would be quite a outcome, considering 6 months ago one of the potential cars we considered instead of the IS300H was V6 supercharged petrol XF, and I was getting excited at the prospect of having 12 cylinders, 6L of displacement, two turbos, a supercharger, and 600bhp+ on the drive way.....Now I cannot wait for the day when we have 0 cylinders parked on the driveway. I'm not obsessed with EVs because I'm some kind of tree hugging vegetarian - quite the opposite. But I genuinely do look back and wonder why I was so skeptical about EVs for so long, and all I'm trying to do is show others who might have been like me 6 months ago there is an alternative way to get from A to B and it's already here and now :)

This is what my car does - Home to school to work to home visits 5 days. The Tesla would be ideal in this sort of driving as it would get charged

But then, the problem begins on long trips. I have family all around the country so obviously family weddings and occasions means a lot of driving. For example, recently I went to Birmingham and Gloucester for a family wedding.

Gloucester is exactly 170 miles from my house and I went there and back on 1 tank of fuel in my RX450h in Sport mode with 60 miles to spare. If I had a Tesla, it'd most likely be the 85kwh Battery with maximum range so 300 miles. Id therefore run out of juice on the motorway or need to charge the car somewhere at a service station as the wedding venue barely had enough car parking spaces so I parked on the pavement.

When I go to Bristol or London, I prefer to drive non-stop as I can maintain concentration for that amount of time. If I take a break it actually hinders my ability to concentrate as you almost have to "start over". Also, how do I charge my car if Im staying in a hotel? Also, the majority of my London friends (trained and worked there for couple of years) dont have any form of garage and most park on the street. How would I charge the car at night?

BUT - the main problem would have been in Birmingham - Road works at night and the diversion was very unclear, it brought me back to the same roundabout twice! Now If I only had the 150 of the 300 miles left I would definitely have stressed myself out that night.

Then you have the car itself - OK its sort of high tech but the new BMW 7 series blows it out of the water for fit and finish and gizmos. It doesn't look very good either and then you have the issue of batteries becoming inefficient after a while. My phone doesn't hold as much as it did a year ago, I doubt the Tesla would.

How do I even get the car serviced? Closest service centre is in Birmingham and no ones going to buy a Tesla used with Kwik Fit service history after 3 years. I get the whole "over the air" service thing but there is still brake fluid and other things to change.

Yes, an EV has lots of power (in the case of tesla anyway) but you don't get the thrills of a V6, V8 or V10 when you have an EV unless someone comes up with one that makes a good sound, sort of like that R8 E-tron noise.

£74k after the £5k grant is a lot of money. Im planning on getting the new RX450h F-Sport and that costs £57k with the options I want on it. I drive 10k miles a year, and spend £1700 a year on petrol in my RX. Id actually LOSE more money when buying a Tesla, simply because of the stonking depreciation it'll take due to the price tag on it and even if we don't take that depreciation into account, it'd take circa 10 years to recuperate the extra £17k!

As for Tesla reducing cost of batteries, maybe they will but I doubt they'll reduce the price of the car.......

ganzoom · September 23, 2015

^^ I wouldn't have a 7 series if it was half the price of a Model S, you cannot buy that kind of smooth drive train in an EV.

As for £74K, the version I plan on getting is £55K so actually cheaper than your RX450h :)

As for servicing, there is nothing to service, even Tesla state you don't need to service it and they will honour any warranty claims.

You've already made it clear your views on EVs, we all justify things we want in our own way. For me, it's a not brainer. I'll happily pay a premium to drive any EV over any ICE car :)