"it Depends On What The Definition Of 'is' Is"

[Spacewagon52]

Some excellent arguments for and against EV's by both of you. A really interesting discussion to follow.

[michaelH]

Shouldn't this thread now be in the owners club lounge, rather than on the IS mark 3 forum? Nothing much to do with the Lexus IS any more

[rayaans]

^^ I wouldn't have a 7 series if it was half the price of a Model S, you cannot buy that kind of smooth drive train in an EV.

As for £74K, the version I plan on getting is £55K so actually cheaper than your RX450h :)

As for servicing, there is nothing to service, even Tesla state you don't need to service it and they will honour any warranty claims.

You've already made it clear your views on EVs, we all justify things we want in our own way. For me, it's a not brainer. I'll happily pay a premium to drive any EV over any ICE car :)

But that ones a 70D with "only" 275 miles range which is realistically only 200 miles. Start putting options on it and its £65k anyway. I also don't like how it looks and the new RX interior runs rings around Tesla's!

I call BS on no servicing - It still has brakes does it not, BTW these stick like crazy in cold weather? Give me a Tesla with 400 miles use-able range at £57k and a good quality interior (without using MB parts) and i'll take it tomorrow!

And a showroom in Leeds would be good too. Tesla have done well in the US, can't see why they can't open 100 stores in the UK in a year tbh, or put more chargers up north

[ColinBarber]

It's Friday so I thought that I would initiate some controversy to start the weekend off. I bought a new IS250 a couple of months after this model was introduced, and traded this in for another new IS250 about 4 years later. Car No2 was written off after a dispute about the correct side of the road to drive with a BMW 2 years ago. I had the opportunity to replace this with what was then the newly-introduced IS300 but, after a short test drive, did not like it and bought another IS250.

My IS250 has just been in for servicing and I was given an IS300 as a loaner. This has confirmed my view that the IS250 is a far superior car. Its 6-cylinder engine is smoother and quieter than the 4-cylinder one on the IS300, it has a bigger boot and provides a far more refined drive. I particularly disliked the intrusive whine of the electrical drive system of the IS300 when slowing down and the way in which the petrol engine starts up when, for example, reversing slowly out of a parking space. This latter feature feels as if something has been struck and gives one quite a start (no pun intended). I cannot dispute the greater fuel economy of the IS300 but if, like me, you do not put in a high mileage, this is not a huge advantage and, I suspect, may well be offset by higher servicing and repair costs, particularly in the car's later years.

So my fellow LOC members, what is your verdict on an IS250/IS300 comparison?

I guess the public made up their mind given that the 300h outsold the 250 28:1 in 2015 and so have Lexus given that the 250 is now discontinued.

[Bratman91]

I guess the public made up their mind given that the 300h outsold the 250 28:1 in 2015 and so have Lexus given that the 250 is now discontinued.

Sales figures are not always a good indication of the superiority of one product over another - the figures are often heavily influenced by discounts offered in order to encourage the sale of a particular product and the novelty value of new technology. When the IS300H was introduced in the UK, Lexus offered me one for almost the same price as a top-of-the range IS250, even though the list price for the former was much more. Perhaps this was because they were impressed with my urbane, sophisticated appearance and my handsome, mature but attractive features but I doubt it. My guess is that, having invested heavily in the IS300H, they were keen to promotes sales, make it appear a particularly desirable car and recoup their R@D outlay. Having developed the market for the IS300H, of course they have discontinued the IS250. Do I really think that my wife's iPad Air is better than my iPad 2 - well not for £600 it's not but the sales figures say otherwise!!

[DJP]

The problem is that when you have unexpected trips, which is quite often for me, its very difficult. Imagine having 50 miles left and then you realise you have 100 miles to go!

I posted a couple of days ago that I was 90% certain a Tesla would be next, the remaining 10% being SWMBO's input. Having had a discussion she put forward two or three "what if.." scenarios where I could be left needing to make an emergency journey and be left with insufficient charge. They revolved principally around my elderly mother who lives 100 miles away. I couldn't fault her logic, and whilst I am convinced electric is the way forward for me, until such time as I can have as much certainty about range and ease of refuelling as I have now, it's on the back burner. The time will come I'm sure, for me not just yet.

My original plan was to move to an NX, having never had an SUV before and loving the Lexus service, quality etc etc - I've no need to go on about that. I was intending to start investigations in a view months time, but my dealer caught me at a weak moment and I've gone and bought this

It's a brand new '65 plate, delivery miles, pan roof, AVS, Premium Nav, Sonic White & Rose leather interior. I pick it up on Monday or Wednesday depending on how quickly they can turn the paperwork and PDI around.

No deal on price but 0% interest free credit for 2 years. A fair deal on my well loved 300h, and 20% discount on the service plan.

I'm happy, SWMBO is in shock but what the hell, life's for living!

[Spacewagon52]

Emergency travel .............. they are good points but if you own one car and it breaks down (at home) and you have to get somewhere quick (ill relative) - money should not be an issue - so take a taxi. There is always an emergency option - yes it can be expensive but it is an emergency. For longer journeys, train then Taxi.

There are emergency options out there if your planned use of a limited range EV falls down. The problem is that we are so used to convenience - now not later - many of us are not prepared to tolerate being "without" a car. I am in this boat as well, as I run two cars. I have run a single car for two months without any problems ....... but I still like the added convenience of two cars.

Any thoughts or comments on this?

[capese21]

The problem is that when you have unexpected trips, which is quite often for me, its very difficult. Imagine having 50 miles left and then you realise you have 100 miles to go!

I posted a couple of days ago that I was 90% certain a Tesla would be next, the remaining 10% being SWMBO's input. Having had a discussion she put forward two or three "what if.." scenarios where I could be left needing to make an emergency journey and be left with insufficient charge. They revolved principally around my elderly mother who lives 100 miles away. I couldn't fault her logic, and whilst I am convinced electric is the way forward for me, until such time as I can have as much certainty about range and ease of refuelling as I have now, it's on the back burner. The time will come I'm sure, for me not just yet.

My original plan was to move to an NX, having never had an SUV before and loving the Lexus service, quality etc etc - I've no need to go on about that. I was intending to start investigations in a view months time, but my dealer caught me at a weak moment and I've gone and bought this

Front view.jpg

Rear view.jpg

Side view.jpg

It's a brand new '65 plate, delivery miles, pan roof, AVS, Premium Nav, Sonic White & Rose leather interior. I pick it up on Monday or Wednesday depending on how quickly they can turn the paperwork and PDI around.

No deal on price but 0% interest free credit for 2 years. A fair deal on my well loved 300h, and 20% discount on the service plan.

I'm happy, SWMBO is in shock but what the hell, life's for living!

That is stunning and what I may well look at when the fsport is up for change. Much more desirable than a Nissan Leaf!! A nice car is more imho than just a Consumer Durable. Enjoy it!!

[DJP]

Emergency travel .............. they are good points but if you own one car and it breaks down (at home) and you have to get somewhere quick (ill relative) - money should not be an issue - so take a taxi. There is always an emergency option - yes it can be expensive but it is an emergency. For longer journeys, train then Taxi.

There are emergency options out there if your planned use of a limited range EV falls down. The problem is that we are so used to convenience - now not later - many of us are not prepared to tolerate being "without" a car. I am in this boat as well, as I run two cars. I have run a single car for two months without any problems ....... but I still like the added convenience of two cars.

Any thoughts or comments on this?

I take your point about convenience, but if my 83 year old Mother needs assistance (and I'm the nearest appropriate relative) I am not about to get a taxi for a 100 mile journey and not have a vehicle there. Even less likely to try and work out train options. Yes, my wife has a car, but she may well be away or have commitments of her own - aged relatives on both sides. If the distances to travel were not so significant, and of course they aren't in a Lexus but are in an EV vehicle it would be a different matter.

[michaelH]

According to Matt's VW emissions crisis-inspired cartoon in this morning's Telegraph, the owners of hybrid or electric cars may now be up to 22 times more smug than was originally thought.

[ColinBarber]

Sales figures are not always a good indication of the superiority of one product over another - the figures are often heavily influenced by discounts offered in order to encourage the sale of a particular product and the novelty value of new technology. When the IS300H was introduced in the UK, Lexus offered me one for almost the same price as a top-of-the range IS250, even though the list price for the former was much more. Perhaps this was because they were impressed with my urbane, sophisticated appearance and my handsome, mature but attractive features but I doubt it. My guess is that, having invested heavily in the IS300H, they were keen to promotes sales, make it appear a particularly desirable car and recoup their R@D outlay. Having developed the market for the IS300H, of course they have discontinued the IS250. Do I really think that my wife's iPad Air is better than my iPad 2 - well not for £600 it's not but the sales figures say otherwise!!

You have been able to pick up an IS250 much cheaper than the equivalent IS300h for a very long time now, even at a higher price it massively outsells the IS250. Lexus haven't discontinued the IS250 because of the hybrid, the engine is too inefficient so they have replaced it with the 200t.

[ganzoom]

So I thought I check how much electricity I've used for my Leaf charging up at home.

280 kWh in total, or just £33!!! That's less than 1p/mile in direct fuel costs. I've 3650 miles in 6 months, not come to close running out of charge, and had to use my wife's IS300H once for a long trip the Leaf couldn't mange....Though actually it could have done, I was just a chicken.

Regardless of what ever 'concerns' people have for about EVs, I'm loving mine. Fuel costs for the Leaf is cheaper than getting the bus, never mind compared to any conventional cars. I love it, and cannot wait to see what other Battery EVs are coming round the corner.

For the OP - I'm afraid no matter how much you love the IS250, it's dead end technology - It's already been discontinued. Hybridisation is now a 100% guarantee, especially given the latest diesels emissions issues. Full Battery EVs are much closer to mass adoption than people think.

When prices fall future and they become equivalent to conventional hybrid cars, and people realise the total lack of running costs, they will sell themselves, I honestly cannot believe how cheap the Leaf is to run - £33 wouldn't even be enough for half a tank in the IS300H ;).

[Deadloak]

Actually most cars are cheaper than getting on the bus, the downside is the parking costs, even for a EV.

But I'm not knocking the Leaf, I actually like the route of the EV, just needs to be one that I like. Whereas I was able to find one in a Hybrid, being a fuss pot.

David.

[Spacewagon52]

Gang, do you work in the EV industry? You are a very good avocate for them - you have made me think about my future car purchase in a different light. The BIG factor for most people will be cost. I will be looking at the second-hand market, probably something older than 5 years. Purchase Price / Practicality / Reliability / Fuel Costs will be the main factors.Choice, at the moment, is limited. I read a great deal about The Mitsubishi Outlander PHEV and found the technology stunning but in purely economic terms the ICE will be here for quite some time and will be the only choice for many people on a restricted budget.

[ganzoom]

^^LoL I wish I worked for the EV industry. No I've only come across EVs since getting the IS300H 6 months ago. But since than the more I've looked into the arguments for and against the more it makes sense.

I wish I had made the switch to EVs 12 months ealier, it would have saved me literally ££££ in fuel costs.

The current generation of EVs are like the first Iphone, remember that, no 3G, no App Store, rubbish Battery....But the underlying concept was such a step fowards, it made my Palm Treo 650 feel pointless almost straight away!!

The '2.0' EVs are on schedule for release 2017-18. With cheaper batteries, more charging infurstruce - which is getting better every months, ans better design, I honestly think for many EVs will become a viable replacement for their petrol/diesel cars. Unlike hydrogen fuel cell technology which is pretty much still a pipe dream interms off mass adoption, Battery EVs are knocking on the door, and I cannot wait to see more of them on the road :)

[200h]

i will be interested to read how the leaf stands up during the winter months when the demand for electric increases due to headlights,heaters & rear demister having to be turned on,then the effect the cold will have on the batteries,keep the forum updated.

[200h]

just looked at the prices for the leaf if you buy the car visia base model (£16490 you get a steering wheel and not much more) & lease

the batteries it does become more expensive than paying for petrol,

on a 12 month Battery lease based on 7500 miles / annum you will pay £1080 in rental charges, now i cover roughly the same in my is

and will spend around £924 on fuel / annum so for me going totally green wouldn't be the way at the moment.

http://www.nissan.co.uk/dam/services/gb/brochure/Nissan_Leaf_technical_specs.pdf

and scroll to page 7 & 8 ,pg7 has the prices if you buy outright and pg8 if you buy the car and lease the batteries.

[ganzoom]

^^ I don't know why Nissan/Renault doesn't just lower the list price of the Leaf/Zoe. Hardly anyone pays anything near the list price.

I got £10K off the list off my Leaf Acenta - Which come withs nearly every toy needed - Reversing camera, Bluetooth, mp3, sat nav, folding mirrors, etc. The Tekna version has leather, all round 'Birds eye' view system.

My in-laws just got the same £10K off on their Zoe - Again comes with virtually every gadget you need.

Both deals came with very little deposit, mine was £0, and in-laws £500 and low monthly payments - £200/month for the Leaf and £158/month for the Zoe. Both 2 year deals, 7.5K per year.

Looking at the Carwoo website, most people are getting similar deals on the Leaf/Zoe.

I have no plan on keeping the Leaf longer than 2 years (18 months to go), by than Battery prices will have fallen, and your get more for your money. Musk has again said he is expecting a 5-10% increase in Battery range every 12 months. So by 2017/18, even the base spec Model S should be close to 300 miles of real world range for £50k :)

http://www.greencarreports.com/news/1100204_elon-musk-hints-at-50-percent-more-range-for-tesla-model-s-video

[DJP]

^^LoL I wish I worked for the EV industry. No I've only come across EVs since getting the IS300H 6 months ago. But since than the more I've looked into the arguments for and against the more it makes sense.

I wish I had made the switch to EVs 12 months ealier, it would have saved me literally ££££ in fuel costs.

The current generation of EVs are like the first iPhone, remember that, no 3G, no App Store, rubbish battery....But the underlying concept was such a step fowards, it made my Palm Treo 650 feel pointless almost straight away!!

The '2.0' EVs are on schedule for release 2017-18. With cheaper batteries, more charging infurstruce - which is getting better every months, ans better design, I honestly think for many EVs will become a viable replacement for their petrol/diesel cars. Unlike hydrogen fuel cell technology which is pretty much still a pipe dream interms off mass adoption, battery EVs are knocking on the door, and I cannot wait to see more of them on the road :)

I don't work in the EV industry either, but I'm with Gang on this. That might sound strange having yesterday lashed out on a brand new NX, but I also think give it a couple of years or so and the EV market will be significant. Sure, it will only work for those who can access charging points easily and the ICE will remain dominant for the foreseeable, but it is a step change that those manufacturers which embrace will reap rewards. To use another analogy, the Swiss watch industry was massively affected by the quartz watch revolution, I can see EV's having a big impact in much the same way.

I've postponed my Tesla purchase because I can't take the risk of not having enough range and the speed of charging. Both these will be addressed over time, indeed they already are, just not enough to give me the peace of mind I need at the mo.

The EV driving experience is superb, so it's not as if a sacrifice in that department is necessary either. Ok, you don't get the growl and roar etc, but that doesn't bother me much.

Anyway, I'm looking forward to picking up the NX on Monday, and will enjoy that I'm sure, but next time round.....

Just my two pennies worth.

[dutchie01]

Hi Folks, just wanted to come back to the original topic, the 250 2nd versus the 300h 3rd gen.

I drove a 250 for 4 years and am now underway in the 300hFsport for almost a year so it is time to reflect on the two cars as they cannot be more different. It is not only the drivetrain/engine that of course is completely different but i just feel that the 250 is closer to the original Lexus Core Values, the relentless pursuit of perfection. Lexus always stood out as the leader in NVH and the isolation in the 250 was way better than now in the 300. The 6 was supersmooth and inaudible at idle, there were no drivetrainvibrations , the 300 has them- there were no creaks rattles from inside or outside the car not even after 4 years. The whole feeling it gave was of a car build from one piece and that it would just keep on running, would live forever. the doors would close with a thick thud ( if that exists) and in many ways i do think it was better than the new 300, it seems the cars had a different philosophy behind them during development, the 250 connecting with the lexus core values and the 300 bringing the prius technology into lexus.

of course beeing the newer car the 300 beats the 250 on many fronts, chassis, interior space, fuel consumption, road holding, overall package. But for me it does not create thesame special feeling of overengineered perfection of the 250 ( for instance after 4 yrs the glovebox does open in an identical way with not one mm extra room), the doors open and close like the first day etc etc. The 300 has much lighter doors and boot i gues to save weight, the interior looks great but it does not have thesame feel about it. Dont get me wrong i like my 300 and am a happy owner itś just that the 250 for me felt more lexus than toyota and the 300 more toyota than lexus....

 

could be me though.   

 

 

 

 

 

 

  

[Rabbers]

Interesting post, Bernard.  Although I am very happy with the 300h, I must admit without being able to put my finger on exactly why, that I get an

occasional twinge of nostalgia for the 250, of which I owned two.   But, then again, I tend to get nostalgic about just about every nice thing I have

ever had:   cars, shoes and other items of clothing, old girlfriends etc., and this despite the subsequent availability of improved versions.  Certainly,

the 250 gave a more immediate impression of quality than the 300h.   The "clunkiness" of the doors, boot- and bonnet-lids and fuel-flap, and, 

internally, of the door-pockets and glove-compartment was always pleasing.   Not that the equivalents in the 300h can reasonably be faulted

except for the exposed boot-hinges, which look and feel flimsy.   And it still rankles that the top-spec 300h lacks the back-lit door-sills and

rear-window sunscreen, standard on the 250 and eliminated, no doubt, by the bean-counters.

 

As regards the overall design, the 250 has aged well and still looks surprisingly nice and solid on the road whereas the 300h, being longer

and sleeker, looks lighter and perhaps less reassuring.   Also, I am starting to wonder if the 300h's design, including that of the cabin, is not

ageing a little too quickly, though this could be a case of familiarity breeding a tiny bit of contempt on my part after three years of ownership.

As regards performance, and leaving aside the 250's alarmingly high fuel consumption, I much prefer the 300h for its quietness and smoothness

in all situations, largely attributable to the CVT, of which I have become a big fan, but most especially during long motorway trips when I find the

car to be a well-nigh perfect all-day high-speed cruiser.